[Megathread] Star Citizen

[Kyanion]

Here comes the defense lawyer...

No dude it is simple, you could have made your point without taking multiple lines out to attack their character. Who cares if he wants the game to do well or fail that is irrelevant. Most of your posts go the same way with a personal attack on someone's character at the start or end of your post. Go back and look at them yourself.

[Majestic12]

Sorry I was on mobile and had a better reasoning of why your post was biased and reashes of the same moot points but somehow didin't save.

Ah, don't worry about it, brother. Let's see what you have to say this time...

Yet your post deserves a better clarification despite being clear already thay since you have a special grudge against Star Citizen that leads you into trying to find wrongdoings in pointless things that happen with every other games and create hyperbolic drama has a reason to justify hating on this game and its devs in particular. In short your not looking for honest discussion but solely reasons too atack the game at any cost.

You call them pointless things when they are pretty damn significant for the project as a whole. The reason you always want to attack me as a person is simple: when you can't defeat facts, you attack the person instead. You ain't the first person in history to do this when you lose arguments. The result is always the same though, you just lost and can't handle it. It's a very well known and established pattern in debating and conflict by the way.

Some points:

- Feature Creep complaints.

Since every game goes through several aditions and removals during development calling out "feature creep" is kinda of a moot
point since it could applied to every AAA game.

A feature you consider "creep" or unnecessary can be a core one for the dev and fundamental for other player fun.

The truth is that you can only fully acess what was considered normal game development upgrades from what was feature creep after the game development officially ceases.

If you try to argue that the adition and changes of features have contributed to increase the games development effort aka time it's a natural consequence of a lot of factors that aren't exclusive to Star Citizen. Seen by the multiple delays in AAA games from the traditional studios or the many crowdfunded mmorpgs that have misses their "estimated" release dates despite not increasing scope as considerably as Star Citizen did.

I don't want to repeat myself here too much, but I posted the wiki site for feature creep and what exactly it means. Yes, every game has the potential to suffer from that, it just happens to be that Chris has a background of doing it and he's doing it again all the while periodically he continously marketed dates that he knew he couldn't meet.

The "carrot is always around the corner" is like the slogan for Star Citizen's marketing team.

Feature creep isn't the same as adding features to a game period, by the way. What Chris should have done, had he been reasonable, was to stop adding features and wait until he shipped the product before continuing to add all these features. But he's fallen into the same trap he did with Freelancer and now there's no big baddie publisher to stop him.

- No ship Sales after Launch

You wont find a official definitive stance on this because just like game development is mutable so is the business part of it.

You could literally say this about anything and never have to argue a single thing about the game.

Selling starter ships is what they've hinted at. Subscriptions, Credits, Cosmetics are also available already as a way to generate funding.

"Hinted at" sounds so innocent. They've said precisely how things will be:

Once the economic simulation goes live, we will no longer be selling items outside of the game itself, apart from the base package and ship to start the game.

In other words, they've made it perfectly clear.

Star Citizen is a crowdfunded project, and when they take stances, it is perfectly reasonable to hold them to their word. And if they don't, they should inform us of that. CIG's communication has been atrocious historically(it still is if you trust the community overall).

Saw this the other day: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen..._longer_break/

What usually happens is that CIG will break their word without warning.

The entire thing is based on trust. CIG and Star Citizen has a terrible reputation all over the gaming community for a reason.

Here are a few Chris Roberts' quotes:

LTI is the worst thing to happen to Star Citizen, starting with our next sale, we will remove LTI for new ships, it was meant as a perk for original backers, and adds little value for actual gameplay.

We will be adding LTI to concept ship sales, to let new backers add this great perk to concept ships.

CIG will say what sounds good for the moment even if it means misleading people for marketing purposes. Always have, always will.

About your math.

Assumptions based on outdated data (number of backers has increased exponentially in the last years alone as the gameplay experience improoved considerably (performance + addition of persistence + content) so the number of backers vs number of accounts based on what Turbulent said back in 2016 is already taking a big leap of faith. Bad faith in your case.

How is it bad faith? I specifically wrote the circumstances around it.

Add 10-15% to that figure if you want, it doesn't matter, the point still stands. Pointing out the stuff I wrote in my own post doesn't do you any good. You contributed precisely zero to that discussion.

Star Citizen starter package gives access to all the content ingame now and added in the future. There's no aditional pay to access planet X or feature Y. Someone who paid minimal package 20$ back in the early days does not have to pay more to land on planets, to be allowed to fpshoot gameplay, driving every vehicle he can get into or any other future feature.

Lol, we'll see about that buddy. Here's another Chris Roberts quote for you:

"We will be releasing Squadron 42 as a standalone game to raise funds while we develop the persistent universe stretch goal, we will continue to fund its development through regular releases of DLC."

With this, it doesn't surprise if he'd suddenly decide to block certain features(New or old) behind paywalls. You said it yourself earlier: Nothing is final, and with these words, it already shows which way their mind is going.

If people are spending more is because they like what they play and not because they are forced to.

That's why we've seen funding grow significantly along with the improovements to the gameplay experience.

You claim that CIG has no incentive to release because of money yet games like Anthem, Fallout76 or NMS made more money in a couple of months than Star Citizen did in years.

CIG has no money-making model ready to substitute what they're taking in now. That's why they don't want to leave this stage. If they release and hold themselves to everything they've said, they're royally fucked. Immediately. What would follow is a massive downsizing of the company. In other words, counterproductive. Star Citizen needs years of further development.

CIG is actively developing 2 games while maintaining live builds and hiring devs left and right to produce their games. Until CR is happy with it's product he will not release anything for the sake of it. No matter how much people cry about it.

You got that right, that's precisely why I am complaining about Chris. He'll say things for the moment, then go back on his word.

From a distance, Chris seems to be a very poor manager. Look at his blunder with the original Star Marine. I still stand by that Chris is trash for the project other than coming up with ideas.

Star Citizen if everything goes as planned will never be "finished" just like WoW as new things will keep being added and improoved as it goes.

Nobody wants or expects Star Citizen to be released and never touched again afterwards, so I'm not sure why you bring that up.

Squadron 42 as single-player and "fixed" product makes all the sense to release on consoles if their software can handle it.

Potentially, you could release all games on console, unless CIG announces it, it's dead in the water.

If the game came out me and you wouldn't have to pay anything that's right. But we can already play before release and we still dont have have to pay anything else since our basic package gives access to everything they add anyway. Another Moot point.

It isn't a moot point. The entire argument is that CIG has no incentive to release as things are now, because they can't subsitute the cash in with anything.

They've already cashed in on us, all of us who are backers, which is a massive thing.

Also, most gamers dont crowdfund or early access. They buy mass marketed and officially released products.

They do. And when you look at the market of platforms and the genre, Star Citizen is already at a serious disadvantage compared to common products.

A good marketing campaign can sell millions of any game. See anthem, nms, fallout etc..

The community sells and overhypes games most of the time, not any marketing campaign.

Traditional marketing campaigns are in the past. Now it's all about streamers and influencers.

Starter Ship Aurora as most flown ship invalidates the "star citizen players are all whales spending huge ammounts" narrative.

Nobody said that. The data says that players, on average, have access to much more than just an Aurora. They are just spread out among all the other ships, including unreleased ones.

And no not everyone has a Aurora or has started with one. It's a starter ship for a reason and albeit charming the Mustang is more valuable and the Avenger Titan is way nicer.

The availability of starter ships and packages depends on when you purchased. In 2015 it was only Aurora or Mustang.

So yes, moot points mostly and another huge waste of time going arround bullshit topics and non issues.

You say that, yet, the data speaks for itself. I wonder who is right.

I will be kind and assume for a moment that every single account on the site is a backer account.

Guess what? Average money per account is then: 110 dollars.

We get it you dont like the game but making up bullshit reasons to justify that grudge wont make it go away. In fact it seems it only makes it stronger and more prevalent.

That doesn't make any sense.

Anyway, like I said before, people can lie, facts do not.

It's time for Neo to sit down.

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No dude it is simple, you could have made your point without taking multiple lines out to attack their character. Who cares if he wants the game to do well or fail that is irrelevant. Most of your posts go the same way with a personal attack on someone's character at the start or end of your post. Go back and look at them yourself.

He isn't familiar with ad hominem attacks. To anyone who is actually familiar with these and knows why they employ them, it's hilarious. To him, he just can't help it.

Also, it's funny he talks about a coping mechanism, when he's in here defending the game trying to use personal attacks in place of facts all the while defending his hard earned $ he put into the game.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Saw this the other day: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen..._longer_break/

• Spectrum is a breeding ground for toxic positivity, and that is really at odds with the in-game culture and atmosphere.

From my experience, the opposite is true. There is a lot of complaining and negativity on Spectrum (and rightfully so), probably because only people with grievances and the people super hardcore into SC (to the point where they play it all the time) go out of their way to post on Spectrum over discussing it on Discord or reddit, whereas the ingame servers are very positive and communal (probably due to the servers being capped at 50 players, so everyone on a server knows each other).

*stuff about devs not communicating with their audience*

Yup.

ISC and Calling All Devs often has participants who make sarcastic remarks about legitimate backer concerns or questions, and that's... kind of off-putting.

I empathize with the individual developers here. Being shat on constantly and having the same thing asked of you over and over again can get grating (it was sited as one of the employee's complaints in a review of CIG on GlassDoor; employees frustrated with constant criticism by the fanbase). That said, this is on the PR team for not addressing player complaints, or at the very least not editing out the aside remark from the dev interviews.

Funding beyond the basic game package is not something that is acknowledged by CIG. We don't need special treatment, but it would be nice to see some actual appreciation once in a while for keeping the dream alive.

For the first couple years, they gave everybody vanity items like ingame fish tanks and towels and stuff for each stretch goal that was met. After 2014/2015, they stopped. They still make those little vanity items; they're now locked behind the subscriber paywall. Want that cool helmet? Gotta be a subscriber.

The Issue Council is never addressed. Why does this even exist?

Eh, I think that it's just really slow, and longstanding bugs keep getting shoved down the priority queue. It does suck when (as in my case) when you've reported that items placed in the cargo bay of the 300 series keep falling out, and it still hasn't been fixed over a year and two months later.

With this, it doesn't surprise if he'd suddenly decide to block certain features(New or old) behind paywalls. You said it yourself earlier: Nothing is final, and with these words, it already shows which way their mind is going.

I am dreading this. CIG isn't a small, poor developer like Frontier. They're larger than many AAA studios and rake in more than enough cash to sustain themselves.

The community sells and overhypes games most of the time, not any marketing campaign.

I think it's more indicative of the community being starved for truly game changing systems, such as salvage, or higher player counts, or new star systems, or NPC crews, or the removal of armistice zones, etc. So they latch on to new ships and new cities, which are nice but they don't really change SC as a game, simply add more stuff.

[Cotic]

Complete means its ready but they want to do a quality check first, no different than WoW releasing a new raid and it still requires multiple fixes even after the players are using the content.

When a game developer completes something they always do a quality check on it first regardless.

Lawl man, total differnce between making a thing and fixing new bugs that appear.

Ur saying an unfinished car is the same as a car needing touch up for stone chips.

So wildly off base.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Just watched the new Inside Star Citizen.

Well, creatures are a cool idea, but come on. You've been talking about creatures for years, and you're just now creating a creature pipeline? (btw whatever happened to those sandworms from 2016?)

Anyway, as a poster on Spectrum pointed out, at the rate SC is implementing core gameplay loops, it will be over a decade before all of the core gameplay loops are implemented, and it's looking like it's actually going to take over a decade (given how the last five years of development have gone).

[MrAnderson]

How is it bad faith?

You backed a Chris Roberts game and are crying that Chris Roberts is making a Chris Roberts game like Chris Roberts does.

And you've been going around in circles arguing about non issues and profetizing the company's collapse for years now while the game, the company and player base has kept growing along with the companies valuation contradicting your narrative.

No matter how much you dont like it or think it's "wrong" the numbers dont lie.

The fact is that you could put any other developer in Chris Roberts shoes to try to make a game with the same core features as Star Citizen and they would take more or the same time.

Your "theory" that they should have developed the base game first and then add other core festures later is completely demolished by David Brabens Elite Dangerous development.

Showing that even a more traditional and conservative aproach will suffer the same development hurdles like delays, changes of scope, cutted features and discontent by parts of it's community.

There's simply no easy and quick way to make this kind of ambitious games just like there's no way to please everyone.

That's why, being announced in 2012, there is no game competing with Star Citizen's scale and set of features already playable in the Star Citizen alpha.

Which is why its playerbase keeps growing and the company making money despite being still in alpha. They provide a kind of gameplay experience that people cant get anywhere else.

What you like to point out as flaws about Chris Roberts are nothing more as excuses to hate on him because you feel he hurted you by not meeting your expectations.

That's why development is usualy done in secret (to prevent this kind of behaviour your showing).

If you obsessed about any other game and developer as much as you do with Star Citizen you would find as many flaws. If not the same, others. Because that's just how game development goes.

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Anyway, as a poster on Spectrum pointed out, at the rate SC is implementing core gameplay loops, it will be over a decade before all of the core gameplay loops are implemented, and it's looking like it's actually going to take over a decade (given how the last five years of development have gone).

It's almost like they are focusing their work on Squadron42.

[Aliven]

Just watched the new Inside Star Citizen.

Well, creatures are a cool idea, but come on. You've been talking about creatures for years, and you're just now creating a creature pipeline? (btw whatever happened to those sandworms from 2016?)

Nothing it never existed in the first place.

But something something DUNE something something

[kenn9530]

Lawl man, total differnce between making a thing and fixing new bugs that appear.

Ur saying an unfinished car is the same as a car needing touch up for stone chips.

So wildly off base.

What nonsense are you even talking about, the devs stated that 2 ppl created 3 moons from concept to completion within 4 weeks, things can still be changed just like any other game but it means its ready to use.

[Majestic12]

You backed a Chris Roberts game and are crying that Chris Roberts is making a Chris Roberts game like Chris Roberts does.

Yes, because god forbid that one expects honesty towards the backers.

Nice ad hominem by the way, brings real value to your lack of facts!

And you've been going around in circles arguing about non issues and profetizing the company's collapse for years now while the game, the company and player base has kept growing along with the companies valuation contradicting your narrative.

It's just your selective memory talking. I am 100% right about Chris and their marketing team, always was, always will be.

It's interesting how you blatantly ignored the quotes from Chris Roberts himself - I'll take the win on that one too.

No matter how much you dont like it or think it's "wrong" the numbers dont lie.

Numbers of backer accounts is not going to drop because it is literarally impossible. CIG's aggressive and dishonest marketing has always claimed new victims, whales and new players alike.

The fact is that you could put any other developer in Chris Roberts shoes to try to make a game with the same core features as Star Citizen and they would take more or the same time.

Purely speculation and feels. Nobody can be better than Saint Chris Roberts, haha.

Your "theory" that they should have developed the base game first and then add other core festures later is completely demolished by David Brabens Elite Dangerous development.

Why do you always have to argue in extremes? It isn't one or the other, he could've easily stopped after the stretch goals but he didn't.

Elite Dangerous went barebones, Star Citizen went feature creep to hell and back.

One is released and is now getting space legs, one doesn't exist. Guess which is which.

There's simply no easy and quick way to make this kind of ambitious games just like there's no way to please everyone.

Damn right. And most backers are in for a real cold shower when they realize that Star Citizen won't be their dream game after all.

CIG has successfully, and impressively, managed to maintain the "dream game" illusion and never have had to leave that stage. Because they can't piece the game together.

That's why, being announced in 2012, there is no game competing with Star Citizen's scale and set of features already playable in the Star Citizen alpha.

Invictus was a disaster, so I'm not sure why you bring this up. Having an atrocious experience is hardly something to celebrate. This is even without most of the features promised.

Which is why its playerbase keeps growing and the company making money despite being still in alpha. They provide a kind of gameplay experience that people cant get anywhere else.

You mean, stopping to take screenshots while CIG is unable to create a solid experience with what they already have?

What you like to point out as flaws about Chris Roberts are nothing more as excuses to hate on him because you feel he hurted you by not meeting your expectations.

That's why development is usualy done in secret (to prevent this kind of behaviour your showing).

You know what an excuse is, right? My words about Chris Roberts come from fact and they are undeniable.

If you obsessed about any other game and developer as much as you do with Star Citizen you would find as many flaws. If not the same, others. Because that's just how game development goes.

Again, Mr.Anderson can't help with the ad hominems. Boy are we starting to see a pattern here.

By the way, you should try responding point-by-point instead of posting a mass of text with no content in it.

I literally shove Chris Roberts' quotes, math and facts in your face and you don't even respond to them. Literally 95% of my well-structured post and there's no reply.

You're not here to discuss anything, it's obvious it's all about the feelz over realz.

I am done with this conversation. Odeezee, Kenn and Mr.Anderson couldn't defeat the facts. Big surprise there.

Also, R O F L on the creature feature. More feature creep going on live in front of everyone.

When CIG can't deliver, they add flashy worthless features that literally nobody asked for.

[kenn9530]

I am done with this conversation. Odeezee, Kenn and Mr.Anderson couldn't defeat the facts. Big surprise there.

Also, R O F L on the creature feature. More feature creep going on live in front of everyone.

When CIG can't deliver, they add flashy worthless features that literally nobody asked for.

Your own personal opinions are not facts, so you have defeated yourself.

[masterblaster0]

Also, R O F L on the creature feature.

The space cows and space whales in that video Is that for real?

Aliens were always meant to be a part of the game but they are only starting concept art now. Seven years after starting the KS.

Makes one wonder what else is not even started yet.

[MrAnderson]

Your own personal opinions are not facts, so you have defeated yourself.

The best is ignore him. The derek smart's spirit is strong in that one and only time can shut him up.

Also, alien races and alien creatures have always been planned from the start but hey what's another low hanging fruit to attack after so many.

[Majestic12]

Your own personal opinions are not facts, so you have defeated yourself.

Chris' history is a personal opinion?

Chris' own quotes is a personal opinion?

The math regarding funding is a personal opinion?

Chris's failure as a manager with Star Marine is a personal opinion?

Feature creep is a personal opinion, when facts show otherwise?

Look, you can talk all you want and try to dismiss stuff, you have zero credibility. I am sitting on all the cards here while your camp is blowing hot air.

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The best is ignore him. The derek smart's spirit is strong in that one and only time can shut him up.

You better ignore me, because you certainly don't know how to argue and support your own positions, LOL.

Please, challenge me on the topic of Star Marine so that I can demolish you again.

I know more about Star Citizen than you ever will - a fact you clearly can't handle.

What do you do for a living, by the way? I am a senior developer.

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The space cows and space whales in that video Is that for real?

Aliens were always meant to be a part of the game but they are only starting concept art now. Seven years after starting the KS.

Makes one wonder what else is not even started yet.

Yeah buddy, it's insane. God, it's hilarious.

CIG loves pulling out stuff like this, like the sand worm, even when it's just for show.

In before the cultist gang tries to argue that adding all these creatures is the same as the sand worm. (Which doesn't exist by the way)

[Val the Moofia Boss]

In before the cultist gang tries to argue that adding all these creatures is the same as the sand worm. (Which doesn't exist by the way)

The usual arguement I hear when it comes to sandworms not being ingame right now is "well it's for another planet in another star system that hasn't been created yet!".

No reason why they can't just drop the Sandworms on Daymar until that planet is created, or drop the sandworm planet into Stanton until it's canonical star system is ready (like how Levski is supposed to be in another star system but has been placed in Stanton for now).

Or, maybe the Sandworm was scripted and doesn't really exist.

[Gorsameth]

Good to see SC is now working on adding creatures while the core gameplay loops are still lacking.
But sure, keep trying to convince people that there is no scope creep and lack of direction in development.
lol

[kenn9530]

snip

You have no credibility at all, you make all these claims as fact when you actually know nothing about CiG.

[Kyanion]

The best is ignore him. The derek smart's spirit is strong in that one and only time can shut him up.

Flash forward to 2024 then? 2027? When exactly?

[Majestic12]

You have no credibility at all, you make all these claims as fact when you actually know nothing about CiG.

Again, you're scared to argue specifics, so you're wasting everyone's time.

A completely baseless claim.

[Kyanion]

Good to see SC is now working on adding creatures while the core gameplay loops are still lacking.
But sure, keep trying to convince people that there is no scope creep and lack of direction in development.
lol

Ah come on man, this 'dream game' will be finished some day... I mean that day is likely when the whales get fed up and stop tossing money at CiG before it ever actually releases, but you know how that goes.

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Again, you're scared to argue specifics, so you're wasting everyone's time.

A completely baseless claim.

I love how you give them quotes from the horse's mouth and they just ignore it and claim you have no credibility. Like what?

[Majestic12]

I love how you give them quotes from the horse's mouth and they just ignore it and claim you have no credibility. Like what?

Yeah. Their dilemma is that they just cannot defend Chris Roberts if they would engage in specifics, at the same time, they can't admit that I am right. I am like the Grinch to these guys, I'm ruining their Christmas.

It only energizes me though, soon I'll be back with another topic. Then you'll see one of them reply below me with a generalizing, sweeping statement with ad hominems. Mark my word on this.