1. #10701
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    That's not true at all, and we have reporting to back that up. Kotaku's piece on the troubled development was clear that the concept was canned because BW simply couldn't get it to work technically or narratively within the Frostbite engine - https://kotaku.com/the-story-behind-...ive-1795886428

    Per the piece, it was going for the "No Man's Sky" feel, not Star Citizen.

    Except that planetary takeoffs/landing already exist on current-gen consoles in other titles, so it's not something that inherently requires a SSD.

    I linked you to reporting on it. It's been in actual development for 4 years so far, with the team splitting time between multiple games. Additionally, Ubisoft is not throwing all their studios or finances behind it so I'm unsure why you would bring up the full size and financial scale of Ubisoft. That seems like a pernicious way to attempt to imply that the publisher, which is actively developing and supporting dozens of mid-sized/AAA titles, is throwing many/most of its resources behind the game.

    I don't know where you're getting that from, I've surely never said that and I don't recall anyone posting that recently.

    Cite them, then. Because I've followed it and plenty of people have laid blame at the feet of Roberts. Not all the blame, but much of it.
    It could never go the NMS route as one of it's main features is realistic graphics and believable worlds so it couldn't rely on voxels and procedural generated content to create it's planets alone, it would need tech similar of what Star Citizen uses with authored procedural generation that allows for believable planets at all time - Space > Planet > OnFoot - while maintaining realistic AAA graphical fidelity that the series has been known for. Something that no other studio or engine has managed to do at the level Star Citizen alpha already has contrary with that you claimed much less on consoles.

    BeyondGood&Evil development has gone back and forth a lot of times as they've been developing their engine and procedural tech, if you consider "actual development" for BGE2 starting in 2016 when they showed their first trailer I'd say then Star Citizen "actual development" started around 2015 when they assembled all their main studios, specifically the german one that allowed them the seamless procedural landings on massive planets.

    Ubisoft value$ and human resources shows that no matter the amount of money or number of dev's you have when you're going for ambitious games with specific technical problems you'll will always get into problems that will take time to fix. It's a consequence of the type of game and the complexity of what your doing and not a signal of dev incompetence or laziness like some like to theorycraft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easo View Post
    As @Edge mentioned, does it matter, really? Fan complaints were adressed, even more, they added crapload of other stuff. The issues people had with the game were addressed. That video's authors complaints are quite specific, but... they are not the reasons NMS almost died after the release.
    No one cares about ultra realistic day/night cycle, really, if it looks believable enough.

    And my answer was mostly to the Rennadrel. I absolutely fail to see how SC is bigger in scope than NMS, now. Maybe in mechanics? Sure, ship handling and destruction, fine. But outside of ships...? What is there that NMS does not have, a gamechanger?
    NMS would never die at release because it's essentially a single-player game and sold a buck load of copies with a shoestring budget without needing any player retention to succeed contrary to Anthem.

    It did it's job. Sony used the naivety of the dev's to promote the game without caring about the backlash they would get because they knew that with the right marketing campaign they would make bank despite the game releasing a bare bones game lacking the very features that made the game so appealing to the masses, same thing that happened with Anthem but since it was a game that relied on player competing for bragging rights of having best gear it fizzled out when players showed no interest in the world. They were sold as living worlds for a player to interact and immerse into and ended up being inconsequential and pointless grinds. The only difference is that NMS is "indie" light game and the only pressure to be "amazing" was due to Sony Marketing machine.

    These "revivals" of games that appear on the game pass promotions (sea of thieves) and then release free DLC's of features that were promised on release or late Steam releases are fine from the players and dev perspective that keep getting enjoyment from seeing a game grow while it's dev's keep getting payed to do what they love but they're not comparable to making really cutting-edge games that push the industry forward.
    Last edited by MrAnderson; 2020-07-21 at 10:19 PM.

  2. #10702
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    It could never go the NMS route as one of it's main features is realistic graphics and believable worlds so it couldn't rely on voxels and procedural generated content to create it's planets alone, it would need tech similar of what Star Citizen uses with authored procedural generation that allows for believable planets at all time - Space > Planet > OnFoot - while maintaining realistic AAA graphical fidelity that the series has been known for. Something that no other studio or engine has managed to do at the level Star Citizen alpha already has contrary with that you claimed much less on consoles.
    Ok, that's a lot of words to say, "NMS does it all via procedural generation while SC does it using a mixture of procedural generation and manual work done by hand.", which is my understanding of their efforts based off of what I've read - https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...lpha-3-point-8

    Which has nothing to do with what I wrote and I'm not sure why you bring it up. My point was that, contrary to your assertion, the MA:A team was looking to NMS for inspiration with the game, not SC.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    BeyondGood&Evil development has gone back and forth a lot of times as they've been developing their engine and procedural tech, if you consider "actual development" for BGE2 starting in 2016 when they showed their first trailer I'd say then Star Citizen "actual development" started around 2015 when they assembled all their main studios, specifically the german one that allowed them the seamless procedural landings on massive planets.
    You're the one that claimed they were trying to make it for a decade to begin with, which is all I was rejecting. They haven't been. There has been early pre-production and prototyping, but no actual development really started until at least 2016, and that time has been split.

    And SC doesn't get that kind of cover. BGE2 has asked for precisely $0 in crowdfunding to support its development. SC has been asking for people to fund it since day one, so expectations are obviously gonna be a bit different.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    Ubisoft value$ and human resources shows that no matter the amount of money or number of dev's you have when you're going for ambitious games with specific technical problems you'll will always get into problems that will take time to fix. It's a consequence of the type of game and the complexity of what your doing and not a signal of dev incompetence or laziness like some like to theorycraft.
    Not it does fucking not. Ubisoft's total staffing includes developers and tons of non-development staff. Ubisoft as a publisher is, again, working on at least a dozen different games plus unannounced titles right now, now two. The lionshare of them are not working on BGE2.

    This is some really weird argumentative trick you keep employing trying to imply shit repeatedly without evidence. The size of Ubisoft, its financial resources, and its number of staff are irrelevant here. Completely. You were comparing BGE2 to SC, so you need to compare the team actually working on BGE2, including the budgets, if you want a fair comparison. Anything else is an attempt to reframe the issue in a way that appears dishonest, whether intentional or not.

  3. #10703
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    This is some really weird argumentative trick you keep employing trying to imply shit repeatedly without evidence.
    It is the standard go to play in the playbook. Whatabout X company compared to CiG. This company did X thing so it is okay if SC does Y thing as if excusing the amount of money coughed up in Kickstarter, bought ships and so on while the game has been going on what, 7-8 years of development with no completed game in sight. And on a side note saying Ubisoft values the almighty dollar and CiG apparently doesn't? Yeah that cash shop sure seems to say otherwise. Good fucking god.

    Who cares what Bioware, Sony, Ubisoft and so on do, they aren't crowdfunded. They could light their money on fire and dance around it in a pagan ritual and I don't give a damn.

  4. #10704
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Ok, that's a lot of words to say, "NMS does it all via procedural generation while SC does it using a mixture of procedural generation and manual work done by hand.", which is my understanding of their efforts based off of what I've read - https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...lpha-3-point-8

    Which has nothing to do with what I wrote and I'm not sure why you bring it up. My point was that, contrary to your assertion, the MA:A team was looking to NMS for inspiration with the game, not SC.


    You're the one that claimed they were trying to make it for a decade to begin with, which is all I was rejecting. They haven't been. There has been early pre-production and prototyping, but no actual development really started until at least 2016, and that time has been split.

    And SC doesn't get that kind of cover. BGE2 has asked for precisely $0 in crowdfunding to support its development. SC has been asking for people to fund it since day one, so expectations are obviously gonna be a bit different.

    Not it does fucking not. Ubisoft's total staffing includes developers and tons of non-development staff. Ubisoft as a publisher is, again, working on at least a dozen different games plus unannounced titles right now, now two. The lionshare of them are not working on BGE2.

    This is some really weird argumentative trick you keep employing trying to imply shit repeatedly without evidence. The size of Ubisoft, its financial resources, and its number of staff are irrelevant here. Completely. You were comparing BGE2 to SC, so you need to compare the team actually working on BGE2, including the budgets, if you want a fair comparison. Anything else is an attempt to reframe the issue in a way that appears dishonest, whether intentional or not.
    The MA:A team didn't look into NMS to draw inspiration from because NMS wasn't even a thing when they were thinking about the direction their game. Dreaming about realistic games that let you land on planets has been a common dream of most developers who are into sci-fi for decades, and it's one of the main reasons why Bethesda Todd Howard is now doing Starfield.

    Pre-production and Prototyping an engine is a fundamental part so that a game can emerge from there. I know that normally game studios don't account all the time spent R&D their engine tech used to make their games when they state how long has their game was in development but when Star Citizen development time is brought up everything is added (research - prototype - pitch video - crowdfunding campaign - studio assemble - engine reworks - etc) so for the sake of context and the comparison made it also should be added in the equation.

    SC gets absolutely the same kind of cover, just because it's crowdfunded and it's development public which allows some angry kids cry foul doesn't make their noise have any weight. Nobody is forced to crowdfund games and if they are not knowledgable of the risks involved it's their problem alone.

    Nobody said Ubisoft has all their dev force working in BGE2 or that the company is spending all their money developing it, again you're letting your emotions and rhetoric create narratives that don't exist. Yes Ubisoft is working on 12 titles at the same time, since their dev force is 18k it still gives around 1500 dev's for each project if you would split them evenly. CIG is around 600+ and working on 2 tittles. Just some perspective.

    What's being stated and exposed is that all the problems pointed out at CIG and Star Citizen can also be observed in bigger, richer and more experienced companies showing that it's just a natural consequence of developing big games and that the actual dishonesty occurs when someone tries to blame studios and dev's for normal game development occurrences as a way to their personal frustrations aka
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    trying to imply shit repeatedly without evidence.
    Last edited by MrAnderson; 2020-07-22 at 12:15 AM.

  5. #10705
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    but when Star Citizen development time is brought up everything is added (research - prototype - pitch video - crowdfunding campaign - studio assemble - engine reworks - etc) so for the sake of context and the comparison made it also should be added in the equation.
    No man it doesn't work that way. SC is a crowdfunded game that was supposedly in development before the Kickstarter. YOU yourself are one of the ones that in the past have pointed out how long SC has been in development.

    I don't care if a game is 10 years or more in development if it is a company taking on that risk themselves. SC is different because it is using money from Kickstarter and CASH SHOP sales for things that aren't even in the game yet.

    Remember this gem?



    Yeah. So when you've made claims like this in the past and then crab about people talking about how long SC has been in development you don't get to use that card.

  6. #10706
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister K View Post

    1. I am more than happy to exchange Github accounts and contributions (dated I stopped the career path a year ago, also primarily can only post screens due to private repos). While not related to game design (UI Developer primarily using REACT) many of the same principals apply.
    I remember you were talking about LinkedIn pages last time you were here involved in a big flamewar with Beazy, so I'll say this again: No one is going to (and should not either) practically surrender their anonymity for this debate and possibly dox themselves just to provide credentials. You seem to seek this every single time you get involved in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister K View Post
    Wannabe developers always think they know more than a studio and what goes into the huge task of actually developing a product. Yet they are no where near at the skill level or in the field related to the actual product.
    By the way, here you responded to MrAnderson who in turn responded to me. I'm not a "wannabe developer", I'm a senior back end developer.

    Besides, what could you possibly, as a former junior front end developer, talk about in terms of technical understanding with regards to back end components? At best I'd ask you about Spectrum or their web page when it came to technical detail. In the developer spectrum, you're as far away as you can possibly be to understanding technical problems Star Citizen is facing.

    When you do this weird thing pulling rank, puffing your chest out in your posts and signature all the while trying to belittle others it just comes off as you're on some kind of ego trip. Stop it.
    Last edited by Majestic12; 2020-07-22 at 04:02 AM.

  7. #10707
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic12 View Post
    I remember you were talking about LinkedIn pages last time you were here involved in a big flamewar with Beazy, so I'll say this again: No one is going to (and should not either) practically surrender their anonymity for this debate and possibly dox themselves just to provide credentials. You seem to seek this every single time you get involved in this thread.



    By the way, here you responded to MrAnderson who in turn responded to me. I'm not a "wannabe developer", I'm a senior back end developer.

    Besides, what could you possibly, as a former junior front end developer, talk about in terms of technical understanding with regards to back end components? At best I'd ask you about Spectrum or their web page when it came to technical detail. In the developer spectrum,
    When you do this weird thing pulling rank, puffing your chest out in your posts and signature all the while trying to belittle others it just comes off as you're on some kind of ego trip. Stop it.
    Yeah I remember pulling "rank" before, was it with Beazy too? Enfact I remember you saying something about surrendering anonymity to settle debate. Odd, I don't remember many conversations on forums for more than a day or two.

    Quite frankly there are no nested quotes, I don't look into the chain of quotes but there are many that claim that apparently certain aspects of game development can be done with ease and "done on consoles". I mean if you are going to be taking the piss, at least show a game which has achieved what SC has and we are not talking from content standpoint because, well, there is no content in SC. Game studios barely take risks these days and when they do the backlash spurs.

    I am pulling "rank" yes (and who knows I may be wrong and he is a stellar contractor or working at a great agency) and I don't want to sound like a kid in kindergarten with "but Sir, he did it first" but don't go around saying "I am a software developer" to solidify argument, I can do that too (again I am not referring to you but @Beazy). Although the knowledge and experience I had over the course of 4 years I did it is falling out rapidly these days. I don't like doing this because "there is always a bigger fish" -SW ref, ie there is always someone better than you.

    I have much respect for backend devs and enfact devs in general (I lost passion for it but understand the endless knowledge you need). I am not saying that the similarities between Frontend and Game development are a 1:1 ratio but as with any development, you need to think logically and methodically. As a developer you understand how different functionalities that have dependencies have to be taken into account before you build X. With a multiplayer game (we are arguing NMS vs SC) this is exponentially true because of the networking element that ties into the game. I know fuck all about networking and servers but I don't need to know the details. A bridge is a bridge. Gets you from A to B. However building a bridge for a capacity to handle over 1,000 vehicles per hour is a whole different feat of engineering. Both are bridges, but both serve a different purpose but you plan for it (not that CR has planned for anything, but the devs have).

    Quote Originally Posted by Majestic12 View Post
    you're as far away as you can possibly be to understanding technical problems Star Citizen is facing.
    Then explain. Looks like I am the least enlightened person in this thread. Because I am not on the side of Kenny nor someone like 1001. Problems adapting an engine with 16-32 player support and 8sq miles of terrain distance to an MMO? Are we talking about the NetCode or adapting server side meshing and object container streaming to the scale that SC is attempting to achieve, in a seamless universe not just random span up instances with loading screens. There are game mechanics that do not exist yet which will spawn plethora more new problems and a lot of it are server problems (due to the use of CE I guess).

    Quite frankly, they should have been honest about the development time, cost and scope of the game initially. Clearly stating the risks. But either they were worried about not raising enough and specially from outside investors OR CR living in a delusion thinking it will be piece of piss to make.

    I have been a backer from around 2013-2014 and the game has come a long way, but of course, not far enough and it has plenty of years to go. My investment per hour is down to £50p per hour so if it works, great! If it doesn't oh well, at least I had entertainment (and frustration with crashes).

    PS: Not puffing my chest with my signature
    Last edited by Mister K; 2020-07-22 at 09:15 AM.
    -K

  8. #10708
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    No man it doesn't work that way. SC is a crowdfunded game that was supposedly in development before the Kickstarter. YOU yourself are one of the ones that in the past have pointed out how long SC has been in development.

    I don't care if a game is 10 years or more in development if it is a company taking on that risk themselves. SC is different because it is using money from Kickstarter and CASH SHOP sales for things that aren't even in the game yet.

    Remember this gem?

    Yeah. So when you've made claims like this in the past and then crab about people talking about how long SC has been in development you don't get to use that card.
    Ofc I get to use that card. Crowdfunding doesn't change a thing in technical terms as problems don't get solved faster whether money comes from crowdfunding or private funding.

    If a company has a financial and independent stability they can take as much time they want developing their product. No matter how impatient their users or potential users are. Now there's always inherent risks associated with that, it's up to the company to access them and decide if it's worth it or not, but that's their call too not the users.
    Last edited by MrAnderson; 2020-07-22 at 10:05 AM.

  9. #10709
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    No matter how impatient their users or potential users are.
    Despicable. You are a company man through and through.

    Imagine saying the people who financed the game are impatient because the company is incapable of delivering on their pitch despite blowing $350 million and taking 8 years just to produce a fraction of the game...

  10. #10710
    Quote Originally Posted by 1001 View Post
    Despicable. You are a company man through and through.

    Imagine saying the people who financed the game are impatient because the company is incapable of delivering on their pitch despite blowing $350 million and taking 8 years just to produce a fraction of the game...
    Open letters dont work here. If you cant handle the uncertainties of game development dont back crowdfunded games. Simple.

  11. #10711
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    Open letters dont work here. If you cant handle the uncertainties of game development dont back crowdfunded games. Simple.
    Boilerplate response from a company man. No one backed this game thinking a delay of 15+ years would be acceptable. If a game is 2 or 3 years late, fair enough. Anything else is just taking the piss.

  12. #10712
    So is this game gonna get a release date soon or will it forever be a meme?
    Your persistence of vision does not come without great sacrifice. Let go of the tangible mass of your mind, it is only an illusion. There is no escape.. For the soul burns on everlasting encapsulated within infinite time. A thousand year journey at the blink of an eye... Humanity is dust..

  13. #10713
    Quote Originally Posted by 1001 View Post
    Boilerplate response from a company man. No one backed this game thinking a delay of 15+ years would be acceptable. If a game is 2 or 3 years late, fair enough. Anything else is just taking the piss.
    You can try to speak for everyone who backed (and fail) but that wont ever change the nature of game development business or crowdfunding.

    Like the great Truman once said: If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

  14. #10714
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    So is this game gonna get a release date soon or will it forever be a meme?
    Soon

    In all seriousness, most likely in the next 2-3 years we are looking at a solid, playable game and about 5 years for content pump (missions, items etc). This is assuming that CIG does not close its doors.

    However, as an MMO, it will be continuously worked on.
    -K

  15. #10715
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    You can try to speak for everyone who backed (and fail) but that wont ever change the nature of game development business or crowdfunding.

    Like the great Truman once said: If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
    So you think SC should resume giving refunds for people who are no longer willing to wait?
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  16. #10716
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    So you think SC should resume giving refunds for people who are no longer willing to wait?
    Ofc not, that's not how crowdfunding and pledges work. You give the money freely and willingly knowing that you're doing it so to help make a product. The moment you pledge a crowdfunded project it stops being your money and it's the company/artists money to use accordingly to make that product. As long as the company shows clearly progress and that they are developing the product and using that money for the task at hand no one is entitled to a refund besides the 14-30 days obligatory one.

    Backers who complain probably should have done their homework first. Hopefully, lesson learned.

  17. #10717
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    You can try to speak for everyone who backed (and fail) but that wont ever change the nature of game development business or crowdfunding.
    So what are you trying to say, that you are speaking for the majority and not me? Somehow I doubt that

    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    Like the great Truman once said: If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
    Rewording the company script doesn't change anything. No one backed this game saying A 15 year delay is a-ok by me

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post

    Backers who complain probably should have done their homework first. Hopefully, lesson learned.
    The irony here being how much you moan about Elite stealing your lunch money and it not being the game you thought you were buying and WHERE IS ALL THE DAMN CONTENT THEY PROMISED ME!!!....

  18. #10718
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    Ofc not, that's not how crowdfunding and pledges work. You give the money freely and willingly knowing that you're doing it so to help make a product. The moment you pledge a crowdfunded project it stops being your money and it's the company/artists money to use accordingly to make that product. As long as the company shows clearly progress and that they are developing the product and using that money for the task at hand no one is entitled to a refund besides the 14-30 days obligatory one.

    Backers who complain probably should have done their homework first. Hopefully, lesson learned.
    This is nonsensical. If one takes part in a Kickstarter the terms are laid out and the company receives money based on those terms.
    Changing the deal after one has received monies is known as bait and switch. There is no expectation for a backer or customer to have to wait indefinitely because the company cannot get their affairs in order.

    Try applying your logic elsewhere in the world and see how far it gets you.

  19. #10719
    Quote Originally Posted by 1001 View Post
    Angry Gamer
    It's ok to be angry but don't pretend to know why anyone else does the thing they do. You speak for yourself and you'll rant for yourself. As pointless as that is It's up to you to deal with your own actions and emotions.





    Reality will keep going it's own way either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by masterblaster0 View Post
    This is nonsensical. If one takes part in a Kickstarter the terms are laid out and the company receives money based on those terms.
    Changing the deal after one has received monies is known as bait and switch. There is no expectation for a backer or customer to have to wait indefinitely because the company cannot get their affairs in order.

    Try applying your logic elsewhere in the world and see how far it gets you.
    Try suing based on that logic and see how far it gets you.

  20. #10720
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAnderson View Post
    It's ok to be angry but don't pretend to know why anyone else does the thing they do. You speak for yourself and you'll rant for yourself. As pointless as that is It's up to you to deal with your own actions and emotions.
    This is just you projecting. Because you are so emotionally attached you think everyone else must be as well. What was it you said before? That you felt it was your duty to love the game...

    And trust the company man to pull out finances lol. I imagine most people want the game not financial information...
    Last edited by 1001; 2020-07-22 at 05:11 PM.

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