[Megathread] Star Citizen

[Kyanion]

You're mixing the preparation/production of the kickstart campaign with actual development of the games with the increased current scope and scale.

The announcement of the project and Kickstart campaign launched in the end of 2012 and there was no official studio. With funding from the kickstart they managed to develop several protothypes while outsourcing work from other companies while they hired and were building their own offices.

The games scope in itself invreased considerably due to extra funding which allowed adition of ex-Crytek developers/new studios which only happened in 2014-15 and bringing all development inhouse.

2010-2012 - Kickstart campaign
2013/14 - Create company / first studio / Hiring / Converting Engine to 64bit/ R&D - Prototyping / Outsourcing.

2014/15 - Opening Main Studios (UK & GER) bring development inhouse. Funding increase & Scope change from instanced small locations to full planets. Build tools to create game to the new scope while releasing/maintaining the persistent universe.

Ok so 2010 was the start date then. Btw you and kenn in the past have pointed out how long other projects have taken to make, citing guinness book of world records among other things. When did those dates start? Pre-production. So we're in year 12 now?

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Now that next point is a complete lie from you... you shouldve done some research before talking about server meshing

@Val the Moofia Boss any comments on being called a liar? Because I'd like to see your response to these claims.

I'm still waiting for the wall of CR quotes to get reposted, I hate trying to search through mmo-c to find old posts.

[MrAnderson]

Pre-production started before the Kickstarter, that's a fact. Development starts there.

Making a demo/pitch video is not the same as developing the actual game. It's a visual representation of an idea to best sell that idea in an attempt to get funding to make it happen. Like a sketch or 3D render tour of a building is not considered the actual construction of said building.

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Ok so 2010 was the start date then.

If we wanna trace back to the idea/concept stages of Star Citizen it will go as back as the 90's as shown in this interview from 96:


Just like when Todd Howard/Bethesda state that Starfield has been "25 years in the making" doesn't mean it's been in actual development/production for that long. Just that the idea, lore concept and probably testing and prototyping of a game like Starfield can go as back as 25 years.

[Kyanion]

If we wanna trace back to the idea/concept stages of Star Citizen it will go as back as the 90's as shown in this interview from 96:

When you start actual work on said game, as in making a demo for a Kickstarter then that is likely your start date. It was said before that was a year before the KS right?

Hell let's just use some resources, Wikipedia is usually decent enough. It says right at the top "The game was announced on October 18, 2012 through a successful Kickstarter campaign which drew in over US$2 million. Pre-production of the game began in 2010, with production starting in 2011." So 2010 or 2011 or 2012, all three of those years STILL put the game at year 10, 11 or 12. So it won't be too long before it blazes past Duke Nukem Forever's 14 years mark huh?

Other nuggets would be: With 14 years and 44 days of development, Duke Nukem Forever held the Guinness world record for the longest development period for a video game until it was superseded by Clockwork Aquario. Clockwork Aquario currently holds a title in the Guinness World Records for having the longest development period for a video game, standing at 28 years and 81 days.

So good news while SC will surely blaze past 14 years and 44 days it is unlikely to take 28 years, right? Though to be fair Clockwork Aquario was cancelled in '94 and not really in active development over those years. Either way, when SC passes Duke Nukem we should hold a party. So if we go by 2010 or 2011 we're looking at 2-3 years for this party! Nice!

And thanks to that wonderful video from 2014 we have it right from their mouths that 2010-2011 is the correct years for when the game started to be worked on. Lovely isn't it? Facts.

[Ophenia]

Weren't we discussing about dates 300 pages ago ?

Following the usual flow of that topic, the next discussion will be about building the company from the ground up

[Kyanion]

Weren't we discussing about dates 300 pages ago ?

Following the usual flow of that topic, the next discussion will be about building the company from the ground up

Tell that to Otaka who started this nonsense this time.

[MrAnderson]

Your mixing stages though, perhaps because while they may interlapse they still separated between pre-production and actual production stages.

One thing is the idea/concept/prototyping stage another is actual production of the final product.

Hence the Starfield 25 years in the making or Elite's Guiness record for longest developmen with 17 years.

Truth is what matters is the present and the future. What games are available to play now and how they manage to keep relevancy (for online games that is).

The main thing of note is that After all these years the idea of a game of the scope and scale of Star Citizen is still very appealing to a lot of gamers and the best option at playing a game like that is still the Star Citizen Alpha.

Which is why their player base and consequentially funding keeps increasing.

[Kyanion]

Your mixing stages though, perhaps because while they may interlapse they still separated between pre-production and actual production stages.

Dude do you know what pre-production even means? The video from Citizencon 2014 is them saying they started pre-production in 2010-2011. That is a fact. The game has been in pre-production since 2010-2011. Period. The only thing we don't know is the exact date in 2010-2011.

So even if we're generous and say Jan 1 2011 that means in March of 2025 they pass Duke Nukem. And if you think the game will be fully released in 2025 I have a bridge to sell you. Or very well rendered pictures of bridges I guess.

[Edge-]

Press F2 to bring up your Mobiglass. Click on the star map. Click on the planet you want to go to, and then that should bring up a lot of destinations on the planet you can QT to. Your mission destination is almost always within 10-20 kilometers within a place you can QT to, so you can click the nearest destination and click "set destination" so you can QT to it. The only notable exception being the secret drug shack if you're a criminal which requires 15-20 minutes of flying to reach from the nearest waypoint.

I've been bringing up mobiglass but haven't seen my map yet (using F1) - didn't notice the icon for any kind of map but I'll have to try. Because having to manually fly "around" a planet far enough to get within LoS of your target jump location is uh...pretty fuckin awful : |

My experience was very much defined by a lot of little things that I'm sure are very immersive and all but to me felt like, "Do I need to be waiting on this elevator? There are survival elements on top of everything else? Wait...there are this many keybinds? Why? How on earth is anyone supposed to remember all these keybinds and modifiers, which are a fraction of the total options!"

atmosphere

Speaking of, does G-force matter on exit/entry? When I was entering another planet it looked like I was getting through the atmosphere and was trying to keep my G's low for a while but after a bit I kinda gave up and nosedove down...didn't seem to matter either way >.>

I strongly recommend using Port Olisar or GRIM Hex as your hub.

• They are space stations, not planetary cities. You don't have to waste time flying in and out of atmosphere.

• Far more convenient than other space stations. You don't have to waste time fiddling with 2 minute long elevator rides to get to your ship.

• Are in Crusader's orbit (the OG planet), which means you have the most stuff to do in a short distance, whereas every other location in Stanton has less things to do and is way more spread out.

• You don't have to constantly refuel.

• Gives you easy access into PvP and criminal activities, if you want to do so. If you want honorable 1v1 duels, you can hang out around Port Olisar and ask for duels. If you decide you want to become a criminal, then Grim HEX is a 30 second transit from PO.

It's fun to tour the other cities but they're not fun to live in long term with the current way the game is designed.

I'll have to look into moving my main city since I think I'm on New Babbage.

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If you don't want to watch youtube turorials I Highly suggest you use the chat (F12 - Enter to chat) and ask for help. Community is usually welcoming and just asking for someone to show you the ropes will help you immensely.

I did, and I guess the questions were too stupid because I got precisely zero responses. Had to spend 10 minutes web searching to try to figure out some things because a lot of the answers were 5+ years old and no longer applicable/relevant.

It's useless to do a tutorial for a game in development since things can change considerably from patch to patch. From keybinds to game mechanics every patch changes something along the way.

Not really? I mean, they're trying to attract new players, no? Why just drop them into the deep end and say "figure it out"? They already have hints pop up while you play, this is simply an extension of that. Contextual tutorials (which they already sorta have with hints) teaching you the very basics of getting to your ship and getting it in the air, at least. I'm not talking about some full voiced thing with cutscenes and whatnot, but literally anything would be a vast improvement over the immediately hostile

[MrAnderson]

Dude do you know what pre-production even means? The video from Citizencon 2014 is them saying they started pre-production in 2010-2011. That is a fact. The game has been in pre-production since 2010-2011. Period. The only thing we don't know is the exact date in 2010-2011.

So even if we're generous and say Jan 1 2011 that means in March of 2025 they pass Duke Nukem. And if you think the game will be fully released in 2025 I have a bridge to sell you. Or very well rendered pictures of bridges I guess.

We've been through that. Pre-production of a demo or pitch presentation of a product to gather investors is not the same as developing the actual product.

Kickstarter launched in the end of 2012 so before that there was no company and only a handfull of developers and 3 ships modeled with 0$ in funding.

After a kickstart campaign launched they opened studios hired devs and build their company while developing their engine and working on prototypes (arena module and arena commander).

Effectively their 2 main studios would only open in mod 2014 and 2015 respectively in Manchester and Frankfurt.

Which is where the core of what we are playing in the online Star Citizen Universe was developed and made possible.

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Not really? I mean, they're trying to attract new players, no? Why just drop them into the deep end and say "figure it out"? They already have hints pop up while you play, this is simply an extension of that. Contextual tutorials (which they already sorta have with hints) teaching you the very basics of getting to your ship and getting it in the air, at least. I'm not talking about some full voiced thing with cutscenes and whatnot, but literally anything would be a vast improvement over the immediately hostile

Sure they want but not at the expense of development.

Like I said it's a live playable alpha game and not suposed to be a bug free polished experience. It certainly not for everyone but many players new and old manage to truck along and enjoy playing it despite it's issues.

I guess it's jankyness and lack of turorial kinda work like a trial to seperate those who have the patience and resilience to be alpha testers material and those who don't.

May I suggest you try the Arena Commander Free-Fly arena to get used to flying and thr keybinds. There's little landing pads there that are good to practice take offs and landings.

If you crash you instant respawn there ready to fly again.

It's the best to learn and sort out keys and graphical options etc

[Edge-]

Sure they want but not at the expense of development.

They're wasting enough time with fluff features that are better saved for the end of development already, why not put in something that will actually increase the chance a new player thinking about spending in the game will actually stick around and be interested enough to spend?

I guess it's jankyness and lack of turorial kinda work like a trial to seperate those who have the patience and resilience to be alpha testers material and those who don't.

This is a really bad rationalization and low-key transparent "We r smarter than u" line. I've alpha tested games, I don't mind alpha testing game. At least those alpha games aren't trying to monetize me and are largely focused on getting core tech in. SC is not a traditional alpha, so comparisons to traditional alpha's aren't very accurate.

It's an "alpha", but it's the most polished alpha that anyone who tests games this early in development will see. It's got more "content" than any alpha I've ever played. You cannot call this anything akin to a traditional "alpha".

[banmebaby]

I'm still waiting for the wall of CR quotes to get reposted, I hate trying to search through mmo-c to find old posts.

I got you friend!
https://imgur.com/a/P9PZSNw

He only said that like once.

2014: "It was originally announced for release in 2014 during the Kickstarter campaign"
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Citizen

2015: "Fall 2015 First Episode of Squadron 42 release"
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1GU....be&t=1h32m43s

2016: “SQ42 was announced originally in a Kickstarter campaign in 2012 together with Star Citizen. After the implementation of more Stretch goals (the last stretch goal was achieved 2014-11-10) the release was subsequently postponed. After CitizenCon in 2015, a new homepage "Answer the Call" showed the date 2016. At CitizenCon 2016 Roberts confirmed a delay of the game.”

https://i.ibb.co/zPPwHqD/2016.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/sq1VNQk/2016-2.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/LJbwdL1/2016-3.png

https://starcitizen.tools/Squadron_42
http://media.kotaku.foxtrot.future.n...lease-date.png
https://web.archive.org/web/20161214...lease-date.png

2017: "During tonight's Citizencon livestream, Cloud Imperium Games announced that Squadron 42, Star Citizen's single player campaign, will not meet its 2016 release date."
https://i.ibb.co/PWRv7Dw/2017.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/WKC3CJc/2017-2.jpg
web.archive.org/web/20161106004215/https://robertsspaceindustries.com/squadron42
web.archive.org/web/20190103031332/https://www.kotaku.co.uk/2016/10/10/star-citizen-single-player-campaign-delayed-into-2017

2020: “Cloud Imperium Games, the company behind the long-awaited space sim Star Citizen, have made a big announcement. Squadron 42, the single player offshoot of Star Citizen, is going to enter the beta stages some time in mid-2020.”
https://www.gosunoob.com/star-citize...nnounced-2020/
….
"You will of course notice that our target beta date for Squadron 42 has moved back by 12 weeks in today's roadmap update"
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...ths-to-q3-2020
….
“We will not be in beta this calendar year — that’s one thing I absolutely know,” Brian Chambers said in the video below. “And once we do have the dates that us internally and leadership and the team are confident that we have dates that we believe we can hit, with all the data we have together, we’ll share that to everybody as soon as we can.”
https://www.kotaku.com.au/2020/10/st...2-delay-again/

If that isn’t enough, you have plenty more in the first link I shared, knock yourself out buddy.

a complete lie from you... you shouldve done some research before talking

Making a demo/pitch video is not the same as developing the actual game.

Lol, a "pitch video", even CiG own word only matters when it’s convenient apparently, when it’s not, we bury that shit with semantics and euphemisms

[MrAnderson]

Amazing how you took this opportunity to just shit on Edge like they're just not a patient/resilient enough person to be part of SC. I guess when you need to handwave what a shit experience it is for a new user...

Playing buggy alphas is not for everyone, no shame in that. To get to the enjoyable part of the game one must got through past the newb stage to tester stage and get around the bugs while understanding that there will be times when they will die and lose everything due to bugs or game-breaking features. If one is not able to endure past the deep initial learning curve and give the game a chance it's ok, like I said before, playing buggy alphas is not for everyone and that's ok.

Is when Star Citizen started development, yes. You can try and split it up into different things with different dates, but you're still wrong. Star Citizen development started in 2010.

Surely, since "it'll take as long as it takes," you shouldn't be fighting so hard against reality here.

There's no reality to be fighting just simple understanding of the differences between conception of an idea, the preparation and execution of a presentation of that idea (which in this case involved making a prototype demo) the actual act of developing that idea into a product AND that a initial idea might change along the way and increase in scope. Not that it matters anyway as each studio and game has their own approaches and unique challenges.

They're wasting enough time with fluff features that are better saved for the end of development already, why not put in something that will actually increase the chance a new player thinking about spending in the game will actually stick around and be interested enough to spend?

This is a really bad rationalization and low-key transparent "We r smarter than u" line. I've alpha tested games, I don't mind alpha testing game. At least those alpha games aren't trying to monetize me and are largely focused on getting core tech in. SC is not a traditional alpha, so comparisons to traditional alpha's aren't very accurate.

It's an "alpha", but it's the most polished alpha that anyone who tests games this early in development will see. It's got more "content" than any alpha I've ever played. You cannot call this anything akin to a traditional "alpha".

Now you're going into armchair dev mode. I don't think you are in a position better than them to know which feature is fluff or which one is a priority. They do care about the player experience which has increased a lot in recent years as the playability and stability of the game was improved and can be noticed by the increasing number of players. But it will not be taking priority above developing the actual game and pushing it forward at it's core.

And as explained already, with each patch things are bound to change, from simple things like new key binds added to accommodate new features to new game mechanics that change how things work. So making a ingame tutorial is a waste of resources. They did one for flying back in 2015 because the community asked for it, it then became broken and obsolete in the next patch because things changed so much, then the community asked for it's removal because it was making new players go away.

Besides, There's plenty of Tutorials to newb players on youtube and also Twitch Streamers playing Live every single day where one can watch and ask questions. https://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Star%20Citizen

Honestly it's not that hard after the first days of getting used to the different mechanics, if you manage to tag along with another player to show you the ropes it will make things easier and more enjoyable.

The biggest thing is changing mentality. One must remind himself that it's playing a alpha game and not let frustration get the best of ya when shit happens. After that is realising there's no point in taking it too serious or grinding like crazy. It's a game to be enjoyed as an experience of being a space man in a online universe. Eventually everything is wiped so nothing really matters besides having fun doing whatever.

Since you started in New-Babbage you might make use of Morphologies tutorial which also starts there:

[banmebaby]

Now you're going into armchair dev mode. I don't think you are in a position better than them to know...

To know… when the actual development started? :^) Honk honk!

[Kyanion]

We've been through that. Pre-production of a demo or pitch presentation of a product to gather investors is not the same as developing the actual product.

You can be willfully ignorant all you wish it does not change the fact that at CitizenCon 2014 they themselves stated 2010 as the year. So sometime in 2024 you pass Duke Nukem as one of the all time debacles in game development. That will be quite the accomplishment. You can try to spin this all you wish but all that matters is CR and cronies saying the information that you can NOT refute.

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Kickstarter launched in the end of 2012 so before that there was no company and only a handfull of developers and 3 ships modeled with 0$ in funding.

Please go and learn what pre-production means. It would really help if we were all on the same page here.

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I guess it's jankyness and lack of turorial kinda work like a trial to seperate those who have the patience and resilience to be alpha testers material and those who don't.

Really goes to show you just the type of community you can expect in SC I guess. Predatory cash shop, people so deeply invested the game they'll even try to scare off potential players because they are negative to aspects of an Alpha.

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I got you friend!

Much appreciated! There you go @Otaka

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Is when Star Citizen started development, yes. You can try and split it up into different things with different dates, but you're still wrong. Star Citizen development started in 2010.

It really is amazing there is CIG on video in 2014 at CitzenCon stating that 2010-2011 is when they started working on it. Thus, pre-production. But here comes someone going NUH UH as if they are right. It is just so arrogant and so wrong.

[Edge-]

Now you're going into armchair dev mode.

This is so meaningless, but if it makes you feel better, sure.

I don't think you are in a position better than them to know which feature is fluff or which one is a priority.

No, but people can have like...opinions? You know? Or are we not allowed to have opinions on SC unless they're personally vetted and approved by Roberts or something?

They do care about the player experience which has increased a lot in recent years as the playability and stability of the game was improved and can be noticed by the increasing number of players.

Sure, I bet veterans can write volumes about the improvements. I'm just sharing what the new player experience is like for me - a new player who intentionally went in blind, and how it feels fairly hostile and poor.

Again, welcome to subjective opinions. If you don't like it well...I don't know what to tell you, you won't ever escape subjective opinions.

And as explained already, with each patch things are bound to change, from simple things like new key binds added to accommodate new features to new game mechanics that change how things work. So making a ingame tutorial is a waste of resources.

Given the already existing like 500+ keybind options I've seen...I guess we're gonna need like 2 keyboards to find room for eveything at this point?

Either way, you don't seem to grasp what I mean by "tutorial" - I mean literally just the help tips that pop up on your screen? Make them more explicit for getting folks to their first ship. You know "Head to the elevator and down to the lobby, and take the tram to the spaceport." next tip "Go to the fleet manager/whatever screen in the spaceport lobby and retreive your ship of choice." Entering is self explanatory since it does show you clearly how you can enter but again...needing to spend 10 minutes figuring out how to open up the hanger doors - something which the are extensive tutorial videos for on the internet, should not be this difficult. It should not require extensive tutorial videos.

Besides, There's plenty of Tutorials to newb players on youtube and also Twitch Streamers playing Live every single day where one can watch and ask questions. https://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Star%20Citizen

Sure, but I'd look for that stuff if I was "getting into" the game and wanted to learn a lot more about mechanics and systems. This is basic "Get to your ship and start flying" shit, which should be extremely straightforward as that's the literal first-step into the universe.

The biggest thing is changing mentality. One must remind himself that it's playing a alpha game and not let frustration get the best of ya when shit happens. After that is realising there's no point in taking it too serious or grinding like crazy. It's a game to be enjoyed as an experience of being a space man in a online universe. Eventually everything is wiped so nothing really matters besides having fun doing whatever.

Again, not a traditional alpha, so alpha rules don't really apply at all here. It has nothing to do with "mentality", that's just garbage from hardcore defenders who want to use "but it's alpha!" as a shield from any and all criticism levied at the game. I just wanted to fuck about and fly around a bit, it shouldn't be that hard.

Since you started in New-Babbage you might make use of Morphologies tutorial which also starts there:

Yeah...a 34 minute tutorial video just to get started? Thanks and all but also, no thanks. If I need to spend 30+ minutes watching someone teach me the literal basics of a game then I'm not interested. Games should not require 30+ minute video tutorials for players to figure out the basics.

[MrAnderson]

If I need to spend 30+ minutes watching someone teach me the literal basics of a game then I'm not interested. Games should not require 30+ minute video tutorials for players to figure out the basics.

Like I said, it's a game in alpha aka active development not a polished and finished experience.
One of the pains of the learning curve is being willing to put in the extra effort in understanding how the game and it's mechanics work. It's a Sim Game, so having a lot of keybinds options but that doesn't mean you need to know all of them. It might seem overwhelming at first but trust me it gets better with time.

That includes knowing how to go around potential issues that surface when something in the game eventually breaks.

But again, if that's not something one is not willing to endure then it's just the way it is.

[Edge-]

Like I said, it's a game in alpha aka active development not a polished and finished experience.

And like I said, this is not a traditional alpha so the traditional rules don't apply. I don't think I've ever played an alpha that required me to watch a 30 minute tutorial video first. Reading short walkthroughs or watching short intro videos? Sure, that's not uncommon. But I can't think of one that eclipsed even 10 minutes, much less 30.

But again, if that's not something one is not willing to endure then it's just the way it is.

Well, I'm almost done with "enduring" but will be poking around a bit more. It's just not a fun/enjoyable experience which it's apparently supposed to be. Maybe I to need to find folks to play with, but you know the old saying...if a game is only fun with friends, it's the friends that make the experience fun, not the game.

[MrAnderson]

And like I said, this is not a traditional alpha so the traditional rules don't apply. I don't think I've ever played an alpha that required me to watch a 30 minute tutorial video first. Reading short walkthroughs or watching short intro videos? Sure, that's not uncommon. But I can't think of one that eclipsed even 10 minutes, much less 30.

Well, I'm almost done with "enduring" but will be poking around a bit more. It's just not a fun/enjoyable experience which it's apparently supposed to be. Maybe I to need to find folks to play with, but you know the old saying...if a game is only fun with friends, it's the friends that make the experience fun, not the game.

If you're talking about the "MMO Free Alpha" tests done some months before release to test bandwidth and showcase the game to lure new players this is not it.
This is an actual game in alpha development where the implementation of all the core features is the priority over stability and player experience.

Which is why having a guide or prior knowledge of some of the most basic mechanics (which are not very intuitive for new players since they work quite differently from what's been standard in the last decade) is almost imperative to get over the initial deep learning curve since besides all that the game also as a somewhat hardcore sim/survival aspect to it.

[Edge-]

If you're talking about the "MMO Free Alpha" tests done some months before release to test bandwidth and showcase the game to lure new players this is not it

No, actual alpha tests. You know, back in the days when lists of alpha/beta testers were jealously guarded and access wasn't doled out by the marketing team.

This is an actual game in alpha development where the implementation of all the core features is the priority over stability and player experience.

Noting about this game is representative of a proper alpha for any other game I've tested, and I've tested many games over the years in their internal alpha states.

Which is why having a guide or prior knowledge of some of the most basic mechanics (which are not very intuitive for new players since they work quite differently from what's been standard in the last decade)

Again, my position remains that if you're granting public access, it needs to be designed for public access. This isn't some secret alpha still pursuing feature completion, this is an "alpha" that's also trying to be a complete game/experience at the same time.

[MrAnderson]

No, actual alpha tests. You know, back in the days when lists of alpha/beta testers were jealously guarded and access wasn't doled out by the marketing team.

Noting about this game is representative of a proper alpha for any other game I've tested, and I've tested many games over the years in their internal alpha states.

Again, my position remains that if you're granting public access, it needs to be designed for public access. This isn't some secret alpha still pursuing feature completion, this is an "alpha" that's also trying to be a complete game/experience at the same time.

Yeah this is not it, this is more to a real alpha stage that is usually only available to professional QA testers.
Which is why some core features are missing and basic things like a tutorial are not worth making.

It's designed for public access that knows it's a game in alpha development. No need to link Twitch streamers again, but there's plenty of people playing it and enduring it's bugs just fine. There's no secrecy they have public builds available to backers since 2013.

At the moment is is just that a game in alpha development that allows backers to play early if they wish so, it doesn't pretend to be a polished and finished gaming experience, albeit some gamers seem to be able to enjoy it somewhat.