[Megathread] Star Citizen

[Kyanion]

You just can't really keep track of your own bullshit, do you?

You'd think that kind of shit would be banable here, but no.

[bbr]

It would have been out by now. That game was only in development for 12 years.

And the reviews were merely mixed in the end. https://store.steampowered.com/app/5...Nukem_Forever/

SC doesn't even have a steam page yet, so they have no plans to release within the year i guess.
They may be going for the record of a game with the longest development cycle.

Last week saw a milestone in videogame history: the release of Duke Nukem Forever (360, PS3, PC), a project delayed so long that it became a running joke. Originally conceived in 1996, DNF took 15 years to reach market, making it likely the longest development period for any game to date.

Assuming halflife 3 wasn't in development already - but kept under wraps.
Though they still need to finish halflife 2...

[Cloverfield]

Doesnt matter if its crowdfunded or anything the money still comes from the same place

It does indeed matter, quite a bit, and in the case of CIG the money comes from a very different place than regular companies. Regular companies get their own funds from selling previous existing and released products, asking for loans (that need to be repaid) or from equity raising (in exchange of company/board control, and sometimes even agreed returns). CIG has no existing released products (unless you agree SC has already released), has no major loans to speak of (at least compared to the 500 millions raised from our pockets), and has no major issues with equity (unless we think Chris Roberts has conceded major CIG control to the Calders in exchange for their investment).

If a regular company spends its own money in a project that fails they take the full hit of the loss. Not us. That is money they had that they could have spent in other better projects but didn't, and that can cost them dearly in a large number of ways, including but not limited to loan defaults, potential loss of board control (in addition to the obvious loss of revenue in the case of better alternative project for the owned resources), loss of future contracts etc.

CIG and Chris Roberts in particular on the other hand do not stand to lose much money on this venture as the money they have used in it was ours to start with (those 500 millions didn't come from sales of released products, loans or equity raising), and they set out to do a single and very specific project with all of it (i.e. no alternative projects possible). All the risk of failure is on us. We lose our money, CIG's on the other hand does not lose any money unless you think SC has been released already in which case revenues post release would be indeed earned and owned by CIG.

In fact Chris Roberts does not only lose no money, but he actually gets away probably several millions richer and that after zero products released in 10+ years:

Remuneration to the highest paid director: £292,322 in 2020, up from £283,192

And that is just Erin Roberts in the UK. That is around US$375,000 for 2020. Now you can imagine the salaries Chris Roberts and Ortwin pay themselves, plus Sandi... And that in a company that allegedly hasn't released a single product yet and is still crowdfunding. It is just truly remarkable.

they asked the backers if they wanted to expand the game further and thats what they got.

That is SC urban myth and unfortunately incorrect I am afraid. I believe you have misunderstood what happened with those "consultations". Do you have a link?

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You cant develop a game with no money, resources or staff so development didnt really start in 2010, you are the one showing complete ignorance of basic things that are easy to understand, they needed the kickstarter to actually develop the game thats the whole point in a kickstarter because without money there is no game, full development is when they really start developing a game fully with having enough staff and tools to get things done and thats at most 6 years.

Most new projects, in game development or elsewhere, usually start with small teams, concept teams, exploring ideas and defining early scope. As some of the chunks of the work get approved it starts to receive further funding and the project teams grow naturally and gradually etc etc. That happens in most companies, large or small, with new projects. And that is exactly what happened in CIG from the early days in 2010 - 2012 where Chris Roberts started that work with the help of the likes of Cryengine staff and other third party companies like Simplygon etc. It is all part of the development process and timeline.

Alternatively, if you want to eliminate that early prototyping and concept phase from your arbitrary way of seeing things then you would probably need to shave off several years aswell from many other actual released games development timelines out there. I.e if SC is only 6 years in according to you, then CP2077 also likely only took 5 years to develop etc etc.

[banmebaby]

That is SC urban myth and unfortunately incorrect I am afraid. I believe you have misunderstood what happened with those "consultations". Do you have a link?

Ahh, that thing again... here you go:

Wrong. They asked the community if they wanted to extra stretch goals after reaching the original goal.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitize....ls_related_to/

Q: What should we do with the crowdfunding counter after we reach our goal? (Total Votes: 21076 - 8% of Citizens, 12% of alpha backers)
1. 5% - Take the funds raised counter down after $23 million (mission achieved!)
2. 7% - Have the funding counter display the amount towards the current stretch goal / feature, not the total amount once we reach $23M.
3. 88% - Keep it up through development and continue to offer stretch goal rewards in addition to extra features and development milestones.

Q: Should we continue to offer stretch goals? (Total Votes: 34590 - 7% of Citizens, ~14% of alpha backers)
1. 55% - Yes
2. 26% - No
3. 20% - No preference

No one really knew what the fucking they were voting for as they were extremely ambiguous with it. Not many details were actually given about these extra goals, as for the consequences that it would bring to its development time, I'll just quote the man himself, Chris Roberts:

"Perhaps more importantly we can apply greater number of resources to the various tasks to ensure we deliver the full functionality sooner rather than later."

"The purpose of the higher stretch goals is to ensure that the game-as-described is finished in the two year time period."

[InfiniteCharger]

Here is a list of many of these stretch goals:

https://cliqist.com/2015/03/11/star-...here-are-they/

Chris Roberts letter from the chairman posts on RSI acknowledging various funding goals:

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/c...rt=publish_new

[Majestic12]

Ahh, that thing again... here you go:

I remember voting no there, yelling against the crowd that it was enough. But the whole ordeal was akin to a bunch of kids in a candy store being asked if they want more candy. The overwhelming response would be yes no matter what.

In hindsight, I think this is precisely what Chris knew and what he was gunning for. He wanted it - and he got it. Now we're in this spot.

The only thing SC has been successful in is crowdfunding so far. And Chris the genius has gotten a big fat CEO salary for so many years and he didn't even have to finish a product.

[banmebaby]

I remember voting no there, yelling against the crowd that it was enough. But the whole ordeal was akin to a bunch of kids in a candy store being asked if they want more candy. The overwhelming response would be yes no matter what.

In hindsight, I think this is precisely what Chris knew and what he was gunning for. He wanted it - and he got it. Now we're in this spot.

The only thing SC has been successful in is crowdfunding so far. And Chris the genius has gotten a big fat CEO salary for so many years and he didn't even have to finish a product.

Of course he did, and now it became the perfect excuse for his shitty lead-developer behavior.
The dude is always miles off from the shit he says, but it’s fine, because “the community voted for it!”.

The vast majority didn’t even vote, and those who did besides “more and better!” had no real clue what they were actually voting on.

[Ripster42]

The only thing SC has been successful in is crowdfunding so far. And Chris the genius has gotten a big fat CEO salary for so many years and he didn't even have to finish a product.

Not just a CEO salary. He's still the major stakeholder and CiG has put out dividends. CiG bought the IP off that thief for cash too. The dude is extracting money in as many ways as possible including a stock swap in another development studio that also pays dividends... CiG is their only customer.

[kenn9530]

Not just a CEO salary. He's still the major stakeholder and CiG has put out dividends. CiG bought the IP off that thief for cash too. The dude is extracting money in as many ways as possible including a stock swap in another development studio that also pays dividends... CiG is their only customer.

He has made a company from the ground up that generates over 10 million a year at least that has nothing to do with players pledging, so he is entitled to a large salary of whatever it is, everything else you say is just your fantasy of uninformed ideas.

[banmebaby]

He has made a company from the ground up that generates over 10 million a year at least that has nothing to do with players pledging, so he is entitled to a large salary of whatever it is, everything else you say is just your fantasy of uninformed ideas.

… and without having to put out a single product, it’s impressive!

However I do agree, people like you are entitled to pay him as much as he wants to. It’s very well deserved if you ask me.

[Ripster42]

… and without having to put out a single product, it’s impressive!

However I do agree, people like you are entitled to pay him as much as he wants to. It’s very well deserved if you ask me.

I just don't get it. The latest financial statements I've seen have them putting out a dividend, on just the UK section of the company, in 2020, where they paid him around a $1m dividend. The company had a revenue stream of about $40m that year. He pocketed 2.5% of all revenue that year, even aside from his salary, and aside from whatever he's getting through his stock swap with turbulent. Paying dividends before there's even a product launch is just incredibly fucked up. It's essentially saying "Our business plan is not to release a game, but to swindle these marks for the foreseeable future."

[Cloverfield]

Ahh, that thing again... here you go:

Indeed. Not only that, but a "poll in a website" is not necessary and sufficient to confirm any change in scope, especially when not even 10% of backers at the time participated.

If CIG had really wanted to properly change the scope of the development they would have required to explicitely change the conditions of the "sale", describing the new scope and timeline, and that would have required them to communicate directly and individually to all backers asking each one of them for an explicit agreement to the change. Or failing that offer a refund. Especially if the change means a delay of over 8 years. And not a poll in a website that only a minority of the community probably was aware of. CIG is the only party managing the revenue received, and therefore any eventual change of plan, fair or unfair, is their sole responsibility, not the backers'.

[Revamp Man]

... and there we go again...







You just can't really keep track of your own bullshit, do you?

Damn they should call you the tax man because look at those receipts

[Cloverfield]

He has made a company from the ground up that generates over 10 million a year at least that has nothing to do with players pledging, so he is entitled to a large salary of whatever it is, everything else you say is just your fantasy of uninformed ideas.

It all has to do directly with players pledging towards SC/SQ42 I am afraid. The majority of those 10 millions is simply based on "subscription" money (mostly related to game content and dev news or early access to that content) and local tax incentives (plus some commercial promotional aspects). If players were not "pledging" that would mean there is no game nor development going on for SC. Without SC being developed there would be no subscriptions or promotion deals, nevermind local tax incentives.

Now if you are telling me those 10 million are related to a totally different product than SC or SQ42 then I am all ears. Especially if you also do not consider tax relief as "generated" revenue

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... and there we go again...







You just can't really keep track of your own bullshit, do you?

Wow, @kenn9530, care to explain and reconcile all those statements? Honestly curious.

[banmebaby]

It's essentially saying "Our business plan is not to release a game, but to swindle these marks for the foreseeable future."

It brings us to the discussion we were having some pages ago.

"It's not a scam because if it was they would have bailed with the money", but why would they? When they can just keep printing money every year without any legal repercussions attached regardless of how this ends : )

Wow, @kenn9530, care to explain and reconcile all those statements? Honestly curious.

Good luck with that, check the links in my signature, I'm still waiting : P

[gondrin]

It would have been out by now. That game was only in development for 12 years.

And in those 12 years, it wasn't even in active development for quite a few of them. This game has been in active development for the entire time. At least with Forever, they can use the excuse that it changed hands so explain why the quality wasn't there. What will be the excuse here if/when it releases out of an unfinished state and there are still issues with stuff. We should start a bingo board for it.

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Paying dividends before there's even a product launch is just incredibly fucked up. It's essentially saying "Our business plan is not to release a game, but to swindle these marks for the foreseeable future."

You know, there is a term for this. It is on the tip of my tongue. Starts with a P and ends in an I.

[Revamp Man]

every time i see this on the front page i expect to see something about maybe just maybe getting a release but seeing shady business practices and people defending them...im ok with that entertainment

[Deus Mortis]

... and there we go again...







You just can't really keep track of your own bullshit, do you?

It is always funny how often he avoids your points. Whatever game it is he goes 100% on the bullshit train making any excuse possible. I still remember him in the New World thread defending the game up and down. He seems to think any criticism must be corrected, not seeming to understand that a lot of people want this game to do well as for those of us who have played other space games like Eve Online, etc, that this is what a lot of us has always wanted. However we want the best game we can get and refuse not to call out the bullshit that surrounds this game and all the problems that it has, as well as to hold the people who make it to their word.

[banmebaby]

It is always funny how often he avoids your points.

The points aren't even mine, it's his own points!

Last time someone else confronted him about avoiding my posts he pretended to have me ignored, because my posts are just "BS", not worth reading, ironic considering these posts are basically quotes of him, not too long after he was already replying to some of my posts

[qwerty123456]

It is always funny how often he avoids your points. Whatever game it is he goes 100% on the bullshit train making any excuse possible. I still remember him in the New World thread defending the game up and down. He seems to think any criticism must be corrected, not seeming to understand that a lot of people want this game to do well as for those of us who have played other space games like Eve Online, etc, that this is what a lot of us has always wanted. However we want the best game we can get and refuse not to call out the bullshit that surrounds this game and all the problems that it has, as well as to hold the people who make it to their word.

It's not every game. It's only the games/shows/whatever he becomes obsessed with then its creators can do no wrong. All other things he will shit on just fine