playing Sub in raids... spec not performing so well?

[RemJay24]

My 25m guild is currently 4/6 normal (hooray) and I've been going Sub for every fight, with the exception of the first boss where I'm combat. So far, I've ranked on World of Logs for every fight I've done... and got some pretty high ranks for Sub (top 10). Granted this is just normal mode (25m), but it makes me feel "good" :-)

However, after glancing at the other specs on WoL for all other fights, Sub is being out performed. Typically its Assassination > Combat > Sub (with the exception of the first fight). And after seeing...

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...14/60/default/

... I feel like I am gimping my raid a little by not playing the best output spec, despite ranking on all the fights and despite being one of the top 3 damage in raid every fight. I feel like I could do more DPS if I chose to play Combat or Assass.

So whats this post about? Just a concern... I want Sub to be the almighty (for single target fights) and perhaps not everyone is giving it a try or some people are not performing the correct rotation (myself included)... or the other two specs are just easier to maintain when encountering new fights. Or maybe its like in Cata where it scales better than the other two specs with better gear.

[Sesshou]

Honestly, sub is basically useless (you aren't the only one that wishes it wasn't though). Not saying you couldn't rank as another spec (because I know nothing about you) but the fact that you are playing the absolute most inferior spec that hardly anyone else is playing certainly matters. I think when I looked the other day, there were 18 sub rogues with a WoL parse for a 25m elegon kill and both the other specs were over 200 (exact number unknown as it only lists the top 200).

Its not that people aren't giving it a try. Plenty of people were using it near the end of DS, so the likelihood that it would just be ignored is pretty low. They probably (like me) tried it out, realized it was garbage and no where near what the sims suggested, and dropped it.

As for scaling, if the sims are any indication (which they obviously failed to be for sub in the first place), they're projecting that assassination gains the most dps as gear level goes up.

[Ashvael]

Gear. As soon as all rogues get to about the gear level where I'm at right now, Subtlety should outperform Assassination again. I cannot garantuee it but it *should* be this way.
I couldn't try it for Spiritbinder this week since I had to concentrate on all the totem calls and Assassination is able to be played on a maximum level while being pretty much braindead (or rather distracted by other stuff) but hopefully I'll be able to play it next week.

[Sesshou]

On what basis do you say it *should* be that way? I am interested in your results when you get a chance to compare next week though.

[Ashvael]

Well, the spec scaling is pretty much in favor of Subtlety. Both specs have the +20% damage modifier built into them which kind of negate each other. Subtlety then has +30% agility built into it and scales better with weapon DPS due to higher %based skills (Backstab & Ambush should in the end outperform high Dispatch scaling) and armor penetration provided by Find Weakness.

Higher itemlevel weapons and gear should favor Subtlety. Maybe I'm wrong and normal itemlevel is not enough to take the #1 spot for single target DPS but if Sub is not ahead by the end of this content I must have missed something pretty important.

[Ryme]

On what basis do you say it *should* be that way? I am interested in your results when you get a chance to compare next week though.

I would guess due to subtlety mechanics out scaling assassination as always.

[Coldkil]

Posting again the latest simcraft results (for how much accurate they could be)
heroic http://simulationcraft.org/505/Raid_T14H.html
normal http://simulationcraft.org/505/Raid_T14N.html

in both cases sub is ahead of assassination (in a patchwerk fight). I think best option to "test" for us is the spiritbinder boss.

I don't know from where it came that Sub is useless and Assa is just better - it's been proven mukltiple times that it comes all to scaling. Also, the difference in dps is not that high.

Edit: i did a 45k dps fight with ST on Feng the Accursed with a 450 dagger OH and a fist MH (which is totally un-optimal). Don't know how to pick this performance, but to me it seems in place with the situation.

[jtstormrage]

I just can't get as high numbers as Assassination. I (personally) find Sub is best:

- on Feng because you can burst the ^%^& out of him between Epicenters. You can also pool up to 10 cps with HAT and Anticipation. I find Assassination fairly rubbish because you lose so much Envenom uptime.
- on Garajal because the superior energy regen and burst is awesome in the spirit world and when you get out of it. I find Assassination really bad on the spirits (although it is good with the buff, as all specs are).
- on Elegon because the burst is really good on the sparks and good burst on pillars and when running in and out. Assassination and Combat do bad bad bad damage on the sparks. Assassination of course has amazing execute with 10 stacks of the debuff and so it depends where your raid is struggling. Combat has good burst every ~1.5mins with SB and AR of course.

Combat is undisputedly best on Stone Guard.

Sub is bad on WOE because it is a struggle on get behind the bosses and I play Combat the reduced cd on Sprint is so good if you are dancing.

And so it is Combat and Sub for me, and unless you are willing/allowed to reforge for each fight, you are sorted. I hope what Ashvael says is right and Sub gets better with gear (as it very much did in Cata).

[Ashvael]

For reference, this is a real (as in not simulated) 6 minute Patchwerk (aka Spiritbinder) fight as Asssassination. This is with no spirit world buffs or anything, just 100% boss uptime. This was with itemlevel 484 (slightly below normal mode) but with a heroic weapon. I don't think I could have pulled more as Combat. Subtlety would require actual testing but I guess I could do more with it.

[Coldkil]

Ash, since you have that good level gear, i'm really expecting a test with Sub.

Maybe it's won't be a clear winner, but i think it will be on par with Assa. Also, sub playstyle is much smoother than Assa, and less downtime. I find it more fun atm.

[Deleted]

Sub will definitely outperform Assassination when played optimally. A lot of rogue just won't be able to do that because Sub is just a bit harder and less forgiving then Assas. The bonus that you don't have to reforge between fights makes me definitely go for a Sub/Combat specc.

[RogueDurr]

You also have to take in account that a lot of i463 ilevel (and similar ilevel) has a lot of mastery on it as well. This allows you to get high levels of mastery pretty quickly making assassination very favorable when you just get into raiding. But when you start to mix in the raid level gear it does move back to a more neutral or even haste heavy gear set. This should allow sub to catch up and compete with assassination.

[Coldkil]

Haste and mastery fight more or less equally for Sublety. Anyway i'm going for an heavy haste gear, so i can use it freely as combat aswell.

[Sesshou]

Posting again the latest simcraft results (for how much accurate they could be)
heroic http://simulationcraft.org/505/Raid_T14H.html
normal http://simulationcraft.org/505/Raid_T14N.html

in both cases sub is ahead of assassination (in a patchwerk fight). I think best option to "test" for us is the spiritbinder boss.

I don't know from where it came that Sub is useless and Assa is just better - it's been proven mukltiple times that it comes all to scaling. Also, the difference in dps is not that high.

Edit: i did a 45k dps fight with ST on Feng the Accursed with a 450 dagger OH and a fist MH (which is totally un-optimal). Don't know how to pick this performance, but to me it seems in place with the situation.

When I said useless, I meant with people's current gear level. Ash's is quite a bit higher than mine, so perhaps that is enough to change things?

I already pointed out the problem with that sim listing though in another thread. It shows assassination not passing combat until somewhere between normal and heroic gear level, but that isn't true because assassination starts ahead of combat in blues. Assassination gains more dps both as percentage and raw number with the item level boost from normal to heroic. Sub is showing (actual logs) at least a 5-10% difference under assassination yet 10% higher than assassination on the logs. Do you really thing adding the other ~half of normal mode gear to those people will cause sub to actually perform 20% higher than we are seeing now in comparison to assassination? I'm not saying its impossible, but those simc numbers are quite obviously incredibly wrong somewhere.

Sub will definitely outperform Assassination when played optimally. A lot of rogue just won't be able to do that because Sub is just a bit harder and less forgiving then Assas. The bonus that you don't have to reforge between fights makes me definitely go for a Sub/Combat specc.

If it was just a skill thing, then with all of those amazing rogues out there, why are none of them doing it? And all those in top guilds are playing combat/assassination from what I saw (including Ash until he goes and tries out sub).

I just can't get as high numbers as Assassination. I (personally) find Sub is best:

Thats just a personal problem then. Look at the logs, armory the rogues in the top guilds, they aren't using sub. Now maybe it does scale well enough they will be using it later.

[Synexlol]

Some actual logs would be great so we can actually help. Raidbots is pretty much irrelevant given the small sample size and vast gear differences right now. I remember the days when people considered playing Subtlety a mortal sin because it was ~15k behind on DPS according to WoL. Obviously that wasn't true since the good Sub Rogues were still doing 25k DPS in Tier 11.

So yeah, some actual logs please.

[Sesshou]

Some actual logs would be great so we can actually help. Raidbots is pretty much irrelevant given the small sample size and vast gear differences right now. I remember the days when people considered playing Subtlety a mortal sin because it was ~15k behind on DPS according to WoL. Obviously that wasn't true since the good Sub Rogues were still doing 25k DPS in Tier 11.

So yeah, some actual logs please.

I wouldn't say irrelevant. Maybe not a great indicator of performance at high gear levels, but it does give you the median, mean, and standard deviation of each spec. There is also certainly a correlation with higher gear levels and higher dps. You could use that to get an estimate of how you would perform with each. Now it certainly has many flaws, but its a lot more useful of a chart than those simc results people keep linking imo.

[Xanjori]

If it was just a skill thing, then with all of those amazing rogues out there, why are none of them doing it? And all those in top guilds are playing combat/assassination from what I saw (including Ash until he goes and tries out sub).

Its worth noting that top players DONT play the harder to play spec on progression fights, its one of the reasons Sub never really got going until someone from a lower ranked guild put in a ton of effort into the theorycrafting and put up logs to show numbers that it even got a proper thread on EJ. In DS HC where Sub was probably the strongest single target spec it still wasnt used on progression, because players were "safer" playing combat on the new and tough fights.

[Squirl]

Subt is fairly weapon dependent, especially if you go with a haste build rather than a mastery build. Mastery puts more damage in your finishers, which are AP-based; with haste, more of your damage is going to come from your builders, and especially Ambush during SD.

I think once we start picking up better weapons and better gear that can be reforged more into non-hit/exp secondaries, Subt is going to pull ahead. That's what the sims say, anyways (though I'm beginning to question the Subt modeling). For now, there's a lot of passive mastery on 463 gear and unless you got really lucky, you're using 463 weapons. Mut seems better for now.

The only thing I'm concerned about is the positional requirements of Subt. A number of fights in MSV make it difficult to be behind the boss/adds all the time. Many fights also require a lot of target swaps, which can be bad for Subt.

---------- Post added 2012-10-12 at 03:27 PM ----------

Its worth noting that top players DONT play the harder to play spec on progression fights, its one of the reasons Sub never really got going until someone from a lower ranked guild put in a ton of effort into the theorycrafting and put up logs to show numbers that it even got a proper thread on EJ. In DS HC where Sub was probably the strongest single target spec it still wasnt used on progression, because players were "safer" playing combat on the new and tough fights.

Also, this is truth. Though the Subt spec is VASTLY easier to play in MoP, the positional things can get you in trouble.

[Sesshou]

Its worth noting that top players DONT play the harder to play spec on progression fights, its one of the reasons Sub never really got going until someone from a lower ranked guild put in a ton of effort into the theorycrafting and put up logs to show numbers that it even got a proper thread on EJ. In DS HC where Sub was probably the strongest single target spec it still wasnt used on progression, because players were "safer" playing combat on the new and tough fights.

It wasn't the strongest single target spec with entry level gear though which has a lot to do with why it wasn't used. Those top guilds cleared heroic DS before they had all the DS gear, especially legendaries. No'kaled was very strong, p1 daggers not so much.

And sub hardly qualifies as "hard" anymore. I mean its basically identical to combat outside its cooldowns. Both keep up SnD, both keep up Rupture (single target), RvS=hemo basically in that you use it to apply a debuff and then wait for it to fall. Dance may cause you to hit a different button where AR does not, but put ambush on whatever key backstab usually is and you'd never notice.

[Xanjori]

It wasn't the strongest single target spec with entry level gear though. Those top guilds cleared heroic DS before they had all the DS gear, especially legendaries. No'kaled was very strong, p1 daggers not so much.

It kinda came out of T12 HC gear as one of the strongest single target specs, it had great scaling from the T12 bonus and the T13 bonus synergised well with Sdance too, so it did have a lot going for it. On fights like Morchok too it was so far ahead it was kind of a joke, but it still wasnt that widely used on Morchok HC even, people simply played combat more.