Jaina and Dalaran in 5.1 [Heavy lore spoilers]

[Verdugo]

How do you assault a city raining down magic death on you =D

Many ways, but those blue dragons teleporting in had a good idea. Now that the city isnt in state of mobilisation against spellweaver, it may be easier.

[Combatbutler]

How do you assault a city raining down magic death on you =D

It is actually pretty easy, Rommath along with a handful of troops breach the city defences to bust Aethas out.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

It is actually pretty easy, Rommath along with a handful of troops breach the city defences to bust Aethas out.

A frontal assault would be suicide though. While blood elves are generally stronger mages than humans (Due to natural affinity for it and longer lifespan to study), there are a few exceptions (Jaina is very strong; I'd rather not count the Guardians, since they get their power from a Council of Mages (Spellcasters now)), and though they are powerful, Dalaran has them far outnumbered.

As for the theft and Darnassus fiascos, the Focusing Iris was stolen by a few spies of Garrosh's. The majority of the Sunreavers, even Aethas himself (and Lor'themar, Halduron, and Rommath) had no idea it happened via Sunreaver aid, same with the portals (I believe; As there isn't a quest for us to steal the Bell-thing (to my knowledge), I am likely correct in the speculation that it was so secretive that those who could fight against it, meaning Aethas and the other Sunreavers, had no involvement in any of it).

[Verdugo]

A frontal assault would be suicide though. While blood elves are generally stronger mages than humans (Due to natural affinity for it and longer lifespan to study), there are a few exceptions (Jaina is very strong; I'd rather not count the Guardians, since they get their power from a Council of Mages (Spellcasters now)), and though they are powerful, Dalaran has them far outnumbered.

Also, the Focusing Iris was stolen by a few spies of Garrosh's. The majority of the Sunreavers, even Aethas himself (and Lor'themar, Halduron, and Rommath) had no idea it happened via Sunreaver aid.

Luckily frontal assault is not needed. Advantage Dalaran has is also its only weakness. Sabotage the enchantment and witness either whole population as it stops defending and focuses to slow down landing, or most epic crash since Exodar.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

Luckily frontal assault is not needed. Advantage Dalaran has is also its only weakness. Sabotage the enchantment and witness either whole population as it stops defending and focuses to slow down landing, or most epic crash since Exodar.

I don't think they'd need the entire population, just their most powerful magi (The Council of Six, Jaina, Kalec, etc).

[RyanEX]

But Jaina did exactly the same thing. She allowed the Alliance to use her city-state as a naval base for the Alliance in their attack on the heart of the Horde (Durotar, border of Mulgore). She even build a new road connecting Theramore directly to Barrens' entrance to save few hours of going around. If she were to refuse Varian back then, what would he do? Declare war on Theramore and lay siege to the city? With Garrosh ready to attack him from behind in such a situation?

So how exactly was Jaina not involving herself in the war? I say she was involving herself in the war long before Aethas did. And unlike Aethas, who could as well not be the one behind this, Jaina fully knew what was going on in Theramore. The difference was of course that Theramore was always leaning towards Alliance, but before MoP Jaina was also against the war, and a friend to Thrall (which was really poor writing to me). Jaina's choice wasn't simply looking the other way, it was embracing the Alliance and granting them a supply route and a military base. She made it clear her loyalties were with the Alliance above all long before she was even made the leader Council of the Six (but she was Kirin Tor member all that time) and even before she took the anti-Horde stance.

And it's still not Horde's doing that drove Dalaran into Alliance's arms. The council decided to stay neutral after Theramore's destruction. Why would covert operation in Darnassus change their stance on that? Not only is the situation much less drastic that the annihilation of an entire city, but the city in question is of lower significance to the Kirin Tor. Same applies to assumed death of Anduin. It's one teenager against who knows how many children in Theramore. And the Council of the Six decided on neutrality back then nonetheless.

Jaina is clearly abusing her powers as the leader of the Kirin Tor, the voice files suggest that. Most likely she is doing the purge only with the aid of Silver Covenant, but not the council.




It is very likely. With Jaina kicking Sunreavers out of Dalaran, later putting those who refused to leave in Violet Hold and purging those who resist ("I purged the Horde out of Dalaran"), and the Silver Covenant backing her up, I believe Silvermoon will retaliate by kicking all High Elves from Quel'Danas. And they will begin war preparations afterwards. After all Jaina believes Aethas is responsible for Darnassus attack. Also, in Lor'themar scenario you infiltrate you most likely kill some Kirin Tor members. That would in turn convince Jaina even more of Aethas' "guilt". Would she just leave him be in her enraged state, or would she go Maiev-mode, turning her anger against Silvermoon for rescuing "the traitor" in the process? So many possibilities.




Maybe he will try to harness all six of the Sha (or seven if they do represent Y'Shaaraj's heads), and Y'Shaaraj shall be reborn. Garrosh fight will be Cho'Gall 2.0.




Did you even read what you wrote?





Knights of the Ebon Blade for the Horde! And Aecherus will be Dalaran's equivalent. Throughout WotLK Ebon Blade members were doing things the Forsaken way, they even compared themselves to Forsaken few times. They even arranged the forging of Shadowmourne, which was to mimic Frostmourne. They are morally ambiguous and follow the same "the end justifies the means" mentality as the Forsaken. I never understood why Varian didn't take any action, even severing ties with them, against those Ebon Blade members who didn't swear loyalty to the Alliance (the players) after Wrathgate. Both Forsaken and Ebon Blade are factions of free undead, both had similar origin and plans (destruction of Lich King and the Scarlet Crusade/Onslaught), morality and ways of doing things. And not even a hint of distrust towards Knights has been shown.


But now it can finally change. After all Sylvanas was said to get some spotlight in MoP as well, and she is unifying Lordaeron under her rule. The major thing in her way is the fact that Darion is a wuss ever since his father was freed, and now he, Alexandros'spirit and Tirion have threesomes on daily basis.




Why in Eastern Kingdoms and not on the current front in southern Pandaria? And where exactly in Eastern Kingdoms? Southern continent is mostly Alliance controlled, but it would make no sense to move Dalaran there. So Lordaeron then? That's what "back" would suggest in literal sense after all. In Hillsbrad where it once was, surrounded by all sides by the Forsaken, with Quel'Thalas connected by a portal to Undercity. Sounds like a perfect spot. With Alliance's focus turned on Pandaria a city-state with internal turmoil would last long in the middle of enemy territory. Or maybe move it above Silvermoon itself, to hunt down Aethas?

Jaina may be the most powerful living mage on Azeroth, but Blood Elves are a race of people attuned to magic. After what Jaina did to Sunreavers, with Silver Covenant joining her, Lor'themar will most likely expel all High Elves from Quel'Denas in retaliation. Especially since he has some animosity towards Vereesa. And thanks to her action the rift between Sunreavers and Rommath and his magisters is basically gone now. Blood Elves are now more united than ever. Maybe with exception of the time when Kael'thas renamed them Blood Elves, but that was also the time when they were weakened by the Scourge. Now they are over Kael'thas' betrayal, they rebuild their city, Amani trolls are weakened after Zul'Jin's and Drakara's deaths and the Sunwell is reignited. While Jaina most likely faces opposition from within Kirin Tor's council itself. I can't see Khadgar and Modera approving the shift towards Alliance, if they voted against it after Theramore's fall.

Add the Forsaken to the mix, and the fact that Alliance forces are focused on Pandaria's front, and Jaina simply won't be able to barge in Lordaeron on her own. Moving Dalaran to Eastern Kingdom's right now would make no sense. Besides, even if she were to hunt Aethas down, her main target is still Garrosh. She's more likely to try with Orgrimmar again.

But I do agree that bringing another version of Dalaran (other than the one used in Lor'themar's scenario) would be a really interesting thing. Maybe not in 5.1 yet, but later on. It would nicely change the dynamic of the factions. But moving it back to Lordaeron right now would be a really bad move on Jaina's part.




And the Alliance exist because Night Elves made a bad deal with the Legion, which eventually lead to them blowing up half of their homeworld. Sorry, but this argument can be used against both factions.




I wonder what happened to Anduin. It could be blizz trolling us again, after all the 5.2 part of legendary chain is called Two Princes (or something like that). Or the achievement was the red herring and Anduin will indeed die. After all it's Garrosh "killing" him, isn't it? And he isn't the one to write a letter to Varian saying "I killed your son. Probably. Maybe. I'm not really sure." And the Alliance knows of Anduin's "death". Garrosh would more likely put his head on a spike, arm ballista with that spike, and shoot it into Varian's face. Either that, or he would make a voodoo priest shrink the head so he could wear it as a necklace.

Maybe Lor'themar will finally cave in to Halduron and Rommath and accept the crown? Kael'thas was also a prince, not a king. That would be epic turn of events.

Another intriguing part is the old alliances mentioned by Lor'themar. The Alliance is unlikely, as he bitches about them a moment before. Naga are active again, but under the leadership of Azshara now, who also reappeared in the lore, and they are doing something to Neptulon. The Legion is extremely unlikely, as it just devastated Quel'danas a few years earlier. Remnants of the Illidari? There is some activity in the Black Temple in 5.1, although related to warlocks, and apparently to Wrathion.

It could also be Shattered Sun Offensive/Sha'Tar. But since neither of these factions (I'm not sure if SSO still exists) would ally with Silvermoon-Horde member, so it would require Silvermoon out of the Horde. Which is unlikely to happen. Maybe the Scryers alone? With Sunreavers being added to Rommnath's magisters Lor'themar is unifying his people. Scryers would fit in this movement nicely.

Or it could be Forsaken. After all the relations between Quel'thalas and Undercity were rather cold lately, and Theron simply wants those relations to go back to TBC status.

Did you read the part in between where Varian declares and the part where I ask how it is the Alliance's fault? As in the part where the Alliance makes PEACE with the Horde after Wrath? Or are you just trying to stir up shit with your terrible reading skills?

Keep it civil please.

---------- Post added 2012-10-14 at 08:03 PM ----------

You do know the Amani empire spread almost the entirety of Northern Lordaeron, and that they needed the humans to stop the orcs is arguably since the orcs were only able to burn Quel'thalas borders and weren't even able to scratch Silvermoon. They couldn't stop the scourge mostly because a member of the Convocation of Silvermoon betrayed his people. Arthas onslaught might have turned out entirely different if Dar'khan had not turned against his people.

Even with their poulation decimated they have still far more citizens than dalaran and equally strong if not stronger magi, the Kirin tor could not withstand the entire army of Quel'thalas that is just delusional, even if we consider all those losses they are still about 7-8% of the original population while Dalaran didn't recover they were besieged by the blue Dragonfligt and many of their magi betrayed them and converted to Malygos.

Dalaran on its own, has a few hundred magi at best, probably a lot less and some Silver covenant rangers, as I said that is not nearly enough to stand against Silvermoon. Not to mention the elves are empowered by the sunwell and can cut the link of the High elves to the restored well crippling essential high elven defenders.

---------- Post added 2012-10-14 at 03:27 PM ----------



And that why humans constantly run to the elves for help because they can't do it on their own right ;P

Lore wise they are plenty of very strong mages around, I mean a no name sunreaver was capable to block Jaina frontal assault.



You mean the blue Dragon that was constantly outwitted and kicked around by an elf like a rag doll?

By itself, no Dalaran wouldn't be able to stand against Silvermoon. But that's the beauty of the Alliance as told by Varian. "Your duty is to assist your allies". If Dalaran does go full on Alliance they'll obviously be reinforced by human, Night Elf (Highbourne) and DRAENEI mages. Take into account that the Highbourne were the ORIGINAL mages and the Draenei are, lorewise, THE badass of the badass masters of magic. And that's not counting your basic soldier reinforcements.

Humans SEEK the help of the Belves once...how many times did the elves come seeking human help? Just to keep score dontchaknow.

I don't care for Kalec so feel free to rag on him as you please.

[Combatbutler]

By itself, no Dalaran wouldn't be able to stand against Silvermoon. But that's the beauty of the Alliance as told by Varian. "Your duty is to assist your allies". If Dalaran does go full on Alliance they'll obviously be reinforced by human, Night Elf (Highbourne) and DRAENEI mages. Take into account that the Highbourne were the ORIGINAL mages and the Draenei are, lorewise, THE badass of the badass masters of magic. And that's not counting your basic soldier reinforcements.

Humans SEEK the help of the Belves once...how many times did the elves come seeking human help? Just to keep score dontchaknow.

I don't care for Kalec so feel free to rag on him as you please.

That was the whole point of the argument, of course Silvermoon couldn't stand against an Alliance reinforced Dalaran. The elves asked the humans for help once and that was almost 3000 years ago. The highborne are not better than the blood elves in fact they are inferior as seen in Azshara, draenei are masters of the arcane as well that much is certain.

[RyanEX]

That was the whole point of the argument, of course Silvermoon couldn't stand against an Alliance reinforced Dalaran. The elves asked the humans for help once and that was almost 3000 years ago. The highborne are not better than the blood elves in fact they are inferior as seen in Azshara, draenei are masters of the arcane as well that much is certain.

I remember that quest, weren't those amateurs and novices though. Also, do you really think Kael just came and randomly offered his help after QT's destruction?

[Combatbutler]

Also, do you really think Kael just came and randomly offered his help after QT's destruction?

They were out for vengeance not help, he pledged his allegiance to Garithos in order to kill scourge.

---------- Post added 2012-10-14 at 08:37 PM ----------

I remember that quest, weren't those amateurs and novices though.

It doesn't change the fact that their methods are horribly outdated, it might be because they sacrificed their own population in order to remain immortal, they simply didn't advance anymore, the highborne stagnated for thousands of years.

[Xorn]

I find it interesting that Aethas so strongly denies involvement, even when he's back in Silvermoon. I would find it interesting if the Darnassus incident was started by someone other than the Sunreavers. Perhaps there is a traitor amongst the alliance trying to play both sides against the middle.

Then again this is Blizzard and they are only good at writing in black and white.

[Burkd]

Omg I can't wait for s%*t to hit the fan! I have been waiting for this for awhile. This is what WoW needs...some epic conflict! Jaina sounds super pist and I hope she teaches me a lesson XD

[Zhaelnas]

Why does Aethas have such a shitty voice actor? He sounds less professional voice actor, more Skyrim-quality Nord.

[Trassk]

The latest video link on the front page reveals, just how much of a double standard hypocrite Jaina has become.

One moment, she's telling Anduin how she wants to make Dalaran into a beckon for both sides to come together as one. The next moment, after hearing about Anduin, she snaps again, showing herself to be as unstable as Varian, and all she said before being meaningless.

It makes her into a flake, someone who can't hold into her own values despite whatever happens. So if Anduin does live, and she finds out, and then says 'oh well thats ok then, maybe we can get along?', you honestly think the sunreavers should give her any air to breath out her crap again? They should nuke dalaran till is crashes.

[Resentful]

Why does Aethas have such a shitty voice actor? He sounds less professional voice actor, more Skyrim-quality Nord.

Probably the only role he will ever play in the story, Hence they likely ''rushed'' it haha

---------- Post added 2012-10-15 at 12:47 AM ----------

The latest video link on the front page reveals, just how much of a double standard hypocrite Jaina has become.

One moment, she's telling Anduin how she wants to make Dalaran into a beckon for both sides to come together as one. The next moment, after hearing about Anduin, she snaps again, showing herself to be as unstable as Varian, and all she said before being meaningless.

It makes her into a flake, someone who can't hold into her own values despite whatever happens. So if Anduin does live, and she finds out, and then says 'oh well thats ok then, maybe we can get along?', you honestly think the sunreavers should give her any air to breath out her crap again? They should nuke dalaran till is crashes.

Lets go with a Mana bomb infused with Sha energy since Garrosh has some bell now!

[Dreknar20]

It makes her into a flake, someone who can't hold into her own values despite whatever happens. So if Anduin does live, and she finds out, and then says 'oh well thats ok then, maybe we can get along?', you honestly think the sunreavers should give her any air to breath out her crap again? They should nuke dalaran till is crashes.

How funny if Anduin has been corrupted by the Sha of Happines and Giggles.

[Trassk]

How funny if Anduin has been corrupted by the Sha of Happines and Giggles.

you mean how your warchief murdered him? Thats right, murdered, not killed. Dunno how you come to such a conclusion as trying to wash his hands clean in this.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

That was the whole point of the argument, of course Silvermoon couldn't stand against an Alliance reinforced Dalaran. The elves asked the humans for help once and that was almost 3000 years ago. The highborne are not better than the blood elves in fact they are inferior as seen in Azshara, draenei are masters of the arcane as well that much is certain.

Most of the Highbourne are terrible (downright noobs, in fact), but the Draenei are at least few in number, so that somewhat balances it out. But, I disagree with his statement that the Draenei are the best Arcane magi; The Blood/High Elves are far more fluent with any magic, I'd wager.

[Sandrox]

Most of the Highbourne are terrible (downright noobs, in fact), but the Draenei are at least few in number, so that somewhat balances it out. But, I disagree with his statement that the Draenei are the best Arcane magi; The Blood/High Elves are far more fluent with any magic, I'd wager.

The Draenei were so good with magic, that Sargeras selected them to lead the Burning Legion. Yeah, im pretty sure they have the blood elves beat.

[Sal the Shieldhog]

you mean how your warchief murdered him? Thats right, murdered, not killed. Dunno how you come to such a conclusion as trying to wash his hands clean in this.

Knowing the Blood Elves, they would (And I'd be right there with them; Silvermoon represent!)

---------- Post added 2012-10-14 at 09:30 PM ----------

The Draenei were so good with magic, that Sargeras selected them to lead the Burning Legion. Yeah, im pretty sure they have the blood elves beat.

And the Blood Elves weren't in existence yet, so he couldn't choose them (He chose the Eredar by the way, "draenei" means "exiled" in their language).

[Sandrox]

And the Blood Elves weren't in existence yet, so he couldn't choose them (He chose the Eredar by the way, "draenei" means "exiled" in their language).

When the blood elves finally did join the legion, they were as fodder. Eredar and Draenei are the same race, the only difference is one serves the Legion, point still stands.