10 to 25 to 10

[Deleted]

Hello Guys,

i just wanted to share my thougts and experience. Its gonna be a long text and mostly its just what i like to say and have on my mind.Its also some BS you so if u wanna flame please leave. if you are not interested its better to stop reading now.

Mostly its about my Guild which i lead and is having a hard time now.
But lets go to the beginning and some words about myself.

I started WoW back in 2006 i guess in Vanilla. I never was a real raider my old Guild did run BwL and MC etc but i had not that deep connection with that Guild. At the beginning of Naxx i did stop to play WoW . mostly because of my exams.
I didnt play TbC but i restarted at Wrath. I played half a year in Wrath but mostly casual because i didnot had the interess to find a real raiding guild.
the guild i was in was wiping at the first boss at naxx hardly.So my Uni started and i wanted to concentrate on that.
Then about 2 Weeks pre Cata i was so bored so i looked for something to play. I found out about the Worgen and found them awesome.
I did get Cata for me and my Girlfriend who played with me. We started at XXX EU but on the Alli side which is if you know the server figgn dead.
A friend of mine played on XXX and because my GF and me didnot know anyone on Blackrock we switched.The guild of my Friend was also some kind of casual.

I am a person if i get interested i dedicate everything to it.I used to search the Net for guides Tips etc found EJ and so on.I played a Ret but my friends raid did not need anymore melees.

After trying to find Random raids (which is awfull as melee because everyone wants range) without success i did think about starting my own raid. I started from the scratch without experience and help.My first raids were awful low but i had a lot of fun. They were random raids mostly of people like me who could not find a raid or were new etc. We wiped a lot at the first Bosses at T11.I started to ask people about fixed Raidtimes because it was crappy to raid everyweek with new people. I did gather some good people but it took us till FL was released until we cleared T11 nhc.

i could see the light at the end of the tunnle. The group i gathered until FL was ok. We were missing 1-2 Slots but we were able to play at the Top 20 at our server. We had 3/7HC prenerf and then oneshotted the rest after the first Nerf(which was the final anyway -.-).It was ok we only had 2 raiddays and were at place 16 at our server at that time.

So DS did start and we oneshotted the whole nhc ID on the first week.But we couldnot seriously start raiding HC because 1 of my Heals was burned out from WoW and it was kind of impossible to find a good replacement.
I also got burned out and we got to 3/8HC prenerf where i needed a break from WoW.Our Guild which i took over from my Friend did grow larger. We even had a second raidgroup where my Girlfriend did raid on. But it was kind of hard for me because the time when they did their raids i needed to help my GF.She may not be top notch but its ok for her because she just started with gaming.
So i decided to do a 25man instead of 2x10 mans. Some of my old Guildmembers did not like the idea but we did discuss and after a while they gave it a shot. This was the time where the 15% Nerf was out at DS.We were still at 3/8 HC and they did not kill anythin at my absent time. The first 25man raid was also awfull. The guys from the 2nd Group could not catch up with the the 1st and also the recruitments were also crap.
But i kept on going. After a while i found some really good people and some people also did stop playing DS because it did burn them out. The times were quite hard and we were the only 25man Raid on the whole server.We did get better recruitments and the Raid did get better from time to time. We cleared DS at 30% Nerf (which i find is ok because we started new at 15% and it was figgn hard to get the new recruitments and everything working together).

So my Guild did grow larger and the new members did integrate themself.We have about 50 active Members and i know all of them per RL Name.

SO MoP did hit. The 25man wasnt finished there were still 2-4 people which i wanted to replace but i could not find new ones yet. I did say that we gonna raid the first week when the raids open and everybody has to be 460 or he will get dkp. Most of the ppl thought that was not possible with about 28 players and a lot of them working. But in the end they all but 1 person did get to 90 and those items.
I really felt proud at that moment i thought it shows that i am not the only person who is dedicated on my group. Again the first raid night was not that great. We could not get pass the Stone guard mostly because our 2 Offtanks who did shit spots etc. Anyway the next 2 Raiddays were great. The atmosphere was great and we did get to kill 3 Bosses.

You have to know that i got some kids on my team. They are -18 and sometime you really realised it. Still they are great players and valuable people on my Guild.

So the next Raidnight was just ok. We did get to the Kings but i had some failer which were killed instantly by the Boss. We called it and on the last Night that ID we did kill the kings.

we procceded to Elegon which is not that easy like the rest.Well we didnt get to phase 3 because my healers could not get the raid up and the dps was just ok.

Just so you dont get the wrong picture because i did call my raidnights awful sometimes. We have a great Raid with some top notch people.Which is not only my opinion but they are ranked on WoL on the Top 100 worldwide.Its just that when u do not have replacements for some slots and you have to take what you have or do not raid.

So after that Elegon night.My officers did told me that they are thinking about doing 10 man raids again with the old people from the old 1st raid.And asked me to Join them.
I told them that i will accept that but i will not join them because i have some kind of reponsibilty to the rest which are still about 20 people and it would be a SHIT move to get the 10 best people and crap on the rest.
So i gave them a night to consider but they did tell me that the 25man is not their thing and they would love to raid 10 man again. I told them that thats ok but they had to leave the guild for the 10 man because its gonna get complicated with the rest.They wanted to stay and tried to discuss that there would not be a problem if they stay etc but i could not accept it not for my own sake but for the rest. I told them that they need to go under the skin of the people who they consider not good enough to raid with and how those people will feel etc. So i gave them till tonight to leaving the Guild and start their own thing.

What mostly makes me sad is that the time i dedicated to this Guild is so much. Mostly i was the one who get to get new recruits trying to get the loot right for everyone and that noone feels like not being treated right. Somedays i was sitting in SW for 5-6 Hours spamming my macro creating a Guild page and talking to new recruits did dps testing. Hell i was about 80times on Ultraxion LFR just to test Dps on new ppl...Also i really thought of them as my friends. I remember sitting on the Teamspeak at Blizzcon or MoP Launch. Often playing till late night with them talking etc.

Well i just wanted to write this down for me and for whoever. I neither need your pity or anythin else. Is is just for some ppl who may be in the same situation like me but maybe it is just for myself to get work with it. Also English is not my first language so i am sorry for every mistake i did.so long

[Ryme]

This post is very hard to read, it's even got a couple of contradictions which I'm not sure are really contradictions or just poor wording. What are even trying to get across here? This felt much more like a blog post than a forum post.

[Deleted]

My opinion on this - When you start a guild you need to ask yourself what you want to achieve and set up rules and guidelines for the members. Sounds obvious but not so obvious for everyone. My guild for example (and probably all serious raiding guilds) have various requirements that you accept when you create and application for the guild. That way new recruits are aware of the consequences if they doesn't live up to these requirements. Since you pull your weight, both in raids and on guild management your members should put in the same effort on performing well during raids and if they don't.. well too bad for them. If the better part of your guild want to go 10 man cause the rest of the members are holding them back in the process of acheiving the guilds goal it's not your problem. If you want to make it your problem, fair enough, but you can't blame them for not wanting to play with terribads.

[Mazar]

I made it thru half the post, then looked for key points. It's hard to read, I still dont know what youre trying to say.


here's what I got out of it.
-You learned that managing multiple people is hard.
-You learned that people have different expectations and desires than yours.
-You learned that spending countless hours devoted to a game can only be so rewarding.

Welcome to raid leading!

What I don't understand is why you would boot people from the guild for teh sake of others? many guilds have multiple raids going on, some even run the raids on teh same schedules.

[Deleted]

I am sry if my post is to poorly written to read. I did write at the end that i am no native english speaker.
Also there is really no Point in my post somehow i just felt like writing down what was on my mind.

I said at the last part that its not fair for the rest of the guild in my opinion when those 10 can still raid on the same TS and so on. Do not forget that its quite impossible to replace those missing people in a short time and we maybe have to stop raiding for some time. Ask yourself how would you feel when u are in such a guild.Or better when u were one of those people left behind ( who most play on the same level as the ones who are leaving.)

[Deleted]

So, what you re saying here is about the core of the problem that raiding model is creating.

The reason to do 25 is just personal preference, that is strong enough to overcome the hardships of finding or creating a group according to your ecpectations, or even change realm, or leaving friends behind.

Still, the people in a 25 is not a tight knit group. It never was. Some guilds managed to come closer together through success in the raids, and survived long into cataclysm or still play together even now.
Most of the times though, a 25 cannot be equal succesfull as a 10 man consisted of the best 10 players of that group.
That is the driving force that led 25s to shatter in one million pieces, yours included.

Is it good?
For some people it is. Those that basically were never into thew "raiding thing" but find it cool that a tight knit group of people can bring down the most powerfull vilains in the game.
Raiding was always about large numbers in wow, till recently.

For many others it is not. Speciffically for those that used to raid the way things used to be and liked it.
If you had the same chance and you needed the same efford to find or create a group of people that likes to raid 25s, it would be oki i guess.
But that is not the case.
Additionally, the fact that blizzard didnt only shared locks and loots (raid is all about the loot), they also merged achievements and tittles and vanity items and realm firsts, left you with nothing to show for the extra efford. As such almost nobody can do it (or wanna take the extra mile to do it), exept from those that can challenge realm firsts with a 25, or very high world rankings.
Even in the case of a world class guild though, the world first 25 discussion, and the world first - in general - discussion, contucted in this very forum, brings nothing but bitterness in your mouth.