Rogues in pve?

[Deleted]

Yo mmo-champion, I am thinking of picking up rogue again and I wonder how viable we are in PvE compared to other classes? And what spec is the best at the moment? Please answer, thanks

[denisgsv]

bother atleast read , atleast the TITLES of other threads in this section ?

[Petraclese]

We are about mid pack. I wouldn't expect to be top dps unless you are raiding with some below average players. Spec depends a lot on gear and the fights. Right now mutilate is ahead of combat and sub, but combat is great for cleave (stone guard) and sub is pretty awesome at quick switches/burst (elegon orbs). Once we get gear though sub is going to be higher dps than mutilate with combat behind both.

[eijin]

I think mutilate still has a chance honestly of being top DPS on many fights. Stand still tank and spank patchwork? as the above stated, middle of the pack, but while they hurt most of our tricks quite a bit, we still can quote often avoid mechanics like epicenter 2/3 times on HM feng, where the range DPS have to more more often than we do and the melee have to run out.

of course on stone guards combat should be able to beat most classes (darn tanks crazy vengence dps). Overall i consider those i play with to be pretty good (i think we are the 32nd 10 man guild in the US atm? i cant check it from work) and I usually have a decent chance at topping the damage meters while im averge amung them in gear.

In general from previous expansions. rogues scale very well with gear, so expect to be moreso "average" during the begining of the expansion and higher end later

[Deleted]

Middle of the pack? Are you speaking about WoL or what?

Rogues are top notch raiding dps at the moment. They do enough damage to be in the top 10 % of players at every encounter, take less damage than any other class and bring very useful buffs and debuffs to the raid.

[Rory]

Middle of the pack? Are you speaking about WoL or what?

Rogues are top notch raiding dps at the moment. They do enough damage to be in the top 10 % of players at every encounter, take less damage than any other class and bring very useful buffs and debuffs to the raid.

I have said repeatedly we are fine. The people crying are in terrible gear and/or don't know how to maximize their rotation. I can't tell you how often I've had people ask me how come I am so much higher on meters with the same gear only to find out they are playing the wrong spec, have no gems/enchants (or the wrong ones) and haven't bothered to reforge their heroic (463) gear to hit/expertise caps.

I haven't done much normal raiding (I subbed for a couple bosses with the top 10m on our server, my guild is very good US 25m and first on the server) but I topped the charts on several fights and was competetive in LFR with my guildmates who have me beat considerably in ilevel.

[Matutin]

I have said repeatedly we are fine. The people crying are in terrible gear and/or don't know how to maximize their rotation. I can't tell you how often I've had people ask me how come I am so much higher on meters with the same gear only to find out they are playing the wrong spec, have no gems/enchants (or the wrong ones) and haven't bothered to reforge their heroic (463) gear to hit/expertise caps.

I haven't done much normal raiding (I subbed for a couple bosses with the top 10m on our server, my guild is very good US 25m and first on the server) but I topped the charts on several fights and was competetive in LFR with my guildmates who have me beat considerably in ilevel.

You are right. I know i am not the best rogue out there and i usually play with average skilled players, but if I try a bit (not much, just a bit) I can end up 1st or 2nd in dps on everyfight, doesnt matter if it is a dungeon, lfr, normal raids, or what.

I am pretty much always at the bottom of the meter of dmg taken. I almost always end up tanking after the tank dies (heh, i tanked enraged hagara 10hm after our tank exploted, and we ended up killing her for the first time).

We can usually just ignore mechanics or help the raid cloaking specific shits.

We have way too much utility, like tricking the tanks on adds, not so bad aoe snare, insane cleave and burst (combat), smoke bomb (not always usefull, but super op on the fights when you can use it, like hagara or the totem guy), stuns, blind, kick, and so on.

[Knuckle]

You are right. I know i am not the best rogue out there and i usually play with average skilled players, but if I try a bit (not much, just a bit) I can end up 1st or 2nd in dps on everyfight, doesnt matter if it is a dungeon, lfr, normal raids, or what.

I am pretty much always at the bottom of the meter of dmg taken. I almost always end up tanking after the tank dies (heh, i tanked enraged hagara 10hm after our tank exploted, and we ended up killing her for the first time).

We can usually just ignore mechanics or help the raid cloaking specific shits.

We have way too much utility, like tricking the tanks on adds, not so bad aoe snare, insane cleave and burst (combat), smoke bomb (not always usefull, but super op on the fights when you can use it, like hagara or the totem guy), stuns, blind, kick, and so on.

I agree on middle of the pack damage wise, but you greatly exaggerate our utility.

Damage taken doesn't really matter all that much, you bring up cata fights when energy on Feint wasn't that big of a deal. Now you can't just spam it without seriously hurting your damage. Tricks adds to tanks? Hunters can do it without moving at all whereas you're losing up time on the boss, not to mention the tank has more snap damage and threat than you so your tricks doesn't really help anything.

-Our AoE snare? Maybe for assassination it isn't bad, but the damage is pathetic as combat or Sub, especially in contrast to other classes who can just drop the slow and then do their normal rotation at almost no loss of DPS. Back when it was 70%, the extra 20% was worth the low DPS of aoe'ing. Now were better off cleaving and letting someone else aoe.
-Smoke bomb? Don't make me laugh they patched it for hagara and they will for gara'ja too, it's a PvP skill.
-Stuns, yea for trash and maybe 1 or too insignificant things. We don't have any kind of AoE CC like everyone else so shit like Heroic Feng's shield we can't do anything.
-Blind, 1 mob that isn't immune to it (super rare) and in most cases again a useless add that people would just dps with or without blind on it.
-Kick, now this is painful to even say but our interrupt sucks. Everyone else has an interrupt at almost no expense. We have to actually pool energy and wait it out unlike warriors, pallys, dks, shamans, druids and monks.

Yea we have utility, PvP utility that doesn't cross over to PvE what so ever.

I'm fine with how rogues are for the most part, our scaling is really bad and only leads to problems later (nerfs) but with so many classes getting skills that cross over for both pvp and pve while almost all of our skills are pvp only focused its starting to show. We have no tools to bring to a raid.

Raid damage taken reduction? No
Raid Damage done increase? No
Raid Heal? No
Any kind of cd to throw on the tank to help? No
Any kind of AoE CC? No

I'm not saying we should have these things, but our tool kit and damage don't justify bringing a rogue when someone who does bring 1 if not multiple of those things can do the same if not more damage than us.

Yea were middle of the pack, but when your a melee DPS with no useful raid utility what justification is there to bringing you?

Every other melee is better than us in a raiding environment, since they bring more than us with the same "middle of the pack" damage.

[Synexlol]

I think Rogues seem fine.

Most of the big problems are more to do with tuning rather than gaping flaws in the class. The only issue I have with mechanics right now is Kick's energy cost. I can even live with Feint's energy cost since it's so incredibly useful.

Expect Rogues to pick up by the end of this tier or the beginning of the next tier; in the long run playing Rogue is a solid choice since it remains one of the most useful classes in a raid.

[Matutin]

...

You wrote way too much for me to reply to every item, not because i am a jerk or lazy, i just have way too much work, and im feeling like crap today. Sorry if this becomes a wallo'text.

I dont feel middle of the pack, but AS I SAID, I dont usually raid with the best dps out there.

About feint, a few times we wiped cause the healers were OOM. Less dmg taken = less heals needed = more mana to heal tanks and other dps.

The cool thing about tricks its that you can start dpsing right asap, even if the tank its super slow or retarded, like the ones i've been seeing.

I said "AoE snare", you can throw 1-3 FoK to snare a bunch of adds, yeah i know a hunter can trap or a shaman can drop totem, but if you dont have those clases you can have a rogue on it.

Smokebomb was not fixed on hagara now rill be on the totem guy, it was even fixed to work on that fight.

Regarding the stuns, the adds on will of the emperor would like to have a word with you.

Regarding blind, as I said it was talking not only about raiding, dungeons and lfr too. I do find Blind to be really usefull on dungeons and shit, it is another way to interrupt the annoying caster or WWing melee.

I think that the only melee with "free" interrupt is enh shaman and ret (not counting tanks, since 1 gdc for an interrupt is 1 less gdc for getting rage, or holy power, or whatever). Regardless of the free cost of it, enh shaman is a gdc capped spec, so it is not free. No idea about rets tho.

Our scaling is not as great as everyone says, you guys forget about the might getting buffed to 20% AP...

Now regarding raid CDS, point me 3 dps specs that have a raid dmg taken reduction cd. Now point me 3 dps classes with raid heal (dont list druids twice).


I do not raid with Vodka, nor Paragon, nor any top guild. I am just a regular non-hardcore rogue who happens to like the class. After every non-fail pug i get into, someone adds me to their friendlist or something cause i played well and helped the raid in some way.

Idk, dont be such a negative nancy and please, dont fell into the haters trap...


Again, sorry for the crappy text, i am feeling like crap today :C

[Petraclese]

While i can be top of the meters vs some locks and mages. Most that know how to gear and play can beat me in lesser gear. Pug lock i had pulled 57k on gara'jal (465 ilvl) while i only did 54k (468 at the time). Mages, Hunters, DK's, and even an enhance shammy can all out dps rogues in equal gear. Rogues are mid pack, just easier to play than other classes (esp mute).
Don't get me wrong. I LOVE rogues. Just trying to get the facts straight about how we compare to other dps classes.
Top rogue dps for normal elegon 10man is #85 138k dps vs #1's 203k dps.

[Knuckle]

...

I agree with your snip but our stun takes 5 combo points for just 1 add on WotE, many other classes can do CC without having to get near them.

I know I sound negative, but that's because I'm just pointing out the negatives of the class. By ourselves and on paper the rogue looks pretty good, we got what we asked for in terms of the "assassin" class, but in when you don't have any of the talents that are required for a boss encounter its sort of sucks.

If they tied some kind of buff to smoke bomb and shroud I'd be alot happier.

SB-Enemies have a 30% chance to miss (Boss melee swings)
Shroud-After it fades 10% increased damage for the raid for 20 seconds.

Or something like that

If I was that unhappy I'd reroll, I just want to feel like I can do SOMETHING no one else can do that helps the team.

[Matutin]

SB-Enemies have a 30% chance to miss (Boss melee swings)
Shroud-After it fades 10% increased damage for the raid for 20 seconds.

I like this idea.

Well idk, maybe you should play with more mediochre players, it may help you feel a lot more usefull lol

[Coldkil]

Middle of the pack? Are you speaking about WoL or what?

Rogues are top notch raiding dps at the moment. They do enough damage to be in the top 10 % of players at every encounter, take less damage than any other class and bring very useful buffs and debuffs to the raid.

A lot of threads are popping out about this, and i decided to quote this post.

Rogues are indeed fine damage wise. The fact is simply that most people still don't have great gear and the "new" rotation can lead to errors which people isn't aware.

The jump from a 463 weapon to an epic one is humongous - i can assure you, i've seen the dps of fellow rogues go skyrocket after they got their hands on stone guard daggers.

Since this kind of threads is becoming an epidemy and people just write without searching first, i'm going to eventually close additional threads which don't bring any informations.