[Music] Metal vs Psy

[CheeseSandwich]

I posted this on my FB page :


and had this response from an aquaintance :
"I can if you like, or a number of other Korean songs, Japanese songs, German songs ect. but is it actually a reasonable comparison to equate having to translate lyrics that are in a different language to having lyrics that are in a language you speak but still can't be understood? "

To which i replied (sry for the wall of text):
"Well first off, its an internet meme. It made me chuckle and resonated with me, so i shared the link on my facebook page. How anyone chooses to interpret that is up to them, but i certainly didnt set out to convey a point that songs with a foreign language are inferior, or the people that listen to said songs are the same. Personally, what i got from this was that a common complaint of people that briefly listen to metal is that they can't understand the lyrics, so the music is bad. Yet some of the same people have no trouble enjoying a song where they are guaranteed NOT to understand the lyrics.

But there are also deeper resonances, such as how bland,obvious, shallow music can strike a chord with multitudes, while complex, scoring, intense structures of art are dismissed purely because one set of wave forms is undecipherable (to people not used to it). Of course, all this is purely subjective, and im not saying psy didnt strike on some sort of genius, hell ive tried the dance, but i think this goes to a deeper level of the quality of music.

Fuck it i'll say it. Metal is a superior form of music to pop. If Beethoven was alive today, he'd much sooner be at Soundwave than at Future music. I will bet all the money in the world on that, and if he is ever revived, you can pay me then. The day pop does an 11/8 time signature i'll shit gold bars. Metal pushes music to new places. Pop is copy and paste.

Of course all of this is an extremely biased point of view, but i just wanted to point out i didnt set out with this shared post to maliciously attack music of other languages, nor the people that listen to them. Honeslty, that'd be like someone thinking that there weren't foreign language metal songs. A lot of which i think are fucking awesome.

All i wanted to do was say, "Yeah, ive heard people say that before about metal, why hasnt anyone said that about this predictable tripe?"."

So i'm pretty sure i made sense, but i was pretty tired. Was I way off the mark? Did i blow it out of proportion?

[jizzyburnizzy]

\m/
totally agree with your post

[Deleted]

Pop is not a genre, just a large umbrella term for multiple genres as well as pretty much an "approach" to music.

Metal has fucktons of bad bands as well, I love metal but I cannot fathom this retarded superiority complex that runs through what I perceive to be a significant percent of the fanbase of the genre. But I tend to dislike the entire subculture surrounding it anyways so...


But to be actually somewhat on topic, I don't get the actual obsession with lyrics either. I am not even talking about this "double standard", just an obsession with lyrics. I like good lyrics but when I am listening to music, that is the last thing I look for pretty much (even song and album titles mean more to me since they can raise my attention and give me a cool vibe), I don't care if I understand what the vocals say or not as long as I find that the aural aesthetics of the vocal delivery appeal to me, and a very significant portion of my music doesn't have any vocals at all and I am totally fine with it - in fact, in many cases that is probably the best approach.

[Skizzit]

It's kind of a stupid argument. On both sides really, but I think when people say "I don't like metal because I cannot understand the lyrics," they are more talking about the fact that the lyrics in some cases do not even sound like language at all. If you listen to a foreign song of any genre you might not understand the language, but you can at least recognize that it is a language. Some metal (not all as there are some metal songs/bands with perfectly understood lyrics) just sounds like grunts and screams.

I am really not a fan of metal or pop music, but I can at least admit that some pop songs are catchy and have some appeal in that manner. I have yet to find any metal songs that I can even really listen to, probably more so due to my lack of trying then it just not existing. I guess I just like music with some depth and subtlety and have found that most metal I have heard has all the subtlety of a jack hammer at 5am outside your bedroom window.

[Deleted]

I'd say you did blow it out of proportion. I like metal, provided it's not someone who thinks they're a lyrics genius because they scream into a mic so much that the words become completely garbled. I don't mind if you can vaguely make out what they're trying to say, Soilwork being a decent example of this in some of their songs.

It's really too far when you start trying to imply that Gangnam Style, which is a different language, is as difficult to understand as something that's in the language you speak, but isn't really words as much as it is random noises that sound slightly human. I don't know the lyrics to Gangnam style, but if i understood the language itself, i'd be able to no doubt. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that you shouldn't try to compare international songs in a different language with songs in English that have just been screamed so badly you can't help but think they'd be better off singing "THIS IS WHAT A DOG SOUNDS LIKE".

Are you into any of the screaming style in metal at all?

---------- Post added 2012-10-18 at 06:19 PM ----------

It's kind of a stupid argument. On both sides really, but I think when people say "I don't like metal because I cannot understand the lyrics," they are more talking about the fact that the lyrics in some cases do not even sound like language at all. If you listen to a foreign song of any genre you might not understand the language, but you can at least recognize that it is a language. Some metal (not all as there are some metal songs/bands with perfectly understood lyrics) just sounds like grunts and screams.

You're talking about Extreme Metal. 'Normal' Metal almost always dis-includes screaming vocals, which is an acquired taste (though well worth getting into).

I am really not a fan of metal or pop music, but I can at least admit that some pop songs are catchy and have some appeal in that manner. I have yet to find any metal songs that I can even really listen to, probably more so due to my lack of trying then it just not existing. I guess I just like music with some depth and subtlety and have found that most metal I have heard has all the subtlety of a jack hammer at 5am outside your bedroom window.

Subtlety = Easy-Listening/Calm/Introspective in this context?

[Skizzit]

You're talking about Extreme Metal. 'Normal' Metal almost always dis-includes screaming vocals, which is an acquired taste (though well worth getting into).


Subtlety = Easy-Listening/Calm/Introspective in this context?

Maybe somewhat. I was talking more along the lines of post-rock like Mogwai and Godspeed You! Black Emperor, mellow hip-hop like Nujabes, classic rock like Pink Floyd, or Jazz and Blues.

[Deleted]

Maybe somewhat. I was talking more along the lines of post-rock like Mogwai and Godspeed You! Black Emperor, mellow hip-hop like Nujabes, classic rock like Pink Floyd, or Jazz and Blues.

There is an entire genre of metal built around post-rock dynamics :>

Isis - Altered Course

Neurosis - My Heart For Deliverance

Underoath - Casting Such A Thin Shadow

[DerpderpHAMMA]

Well, when you actually learn the lyrics of a song, such as
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjKyzwqIT7s Fleshgod Apocalypse- The Violation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTWnlUwB7dY Hour of Penance- Paradogma
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkmOQE6fZCs Beheaded- Elapsed in the Vortex of Extinction
they become quite easy to understand.
That is a fun part of metal to me. Trying to decipher the lyrics. Gives me incentive to listen to crazier stuff. I used to be stuck on stuff like skillet and red jumpsuit apparatus, now look at the crazy shit i listen to.

But yeah, i think that your argument is valid. A little one sided, but every argument is going to be to an extent.

[Skippy88]

I think it's more than just the lyrics. With some metals song it seems like they are just a bunch of kids banging on their instruments. It comes off as noise not music. With Psy I don't think you need to know the lyrics to enjoy it. It's got a good beat and melody to it. Also, don't forget it really wasn't the song that got him to go viral but it was the video which many found hilarious and people love doing his "dance".

[wariofan1]

Oh look, music wars. Although I agree, I see no reason to bash other people's musical taste. I do think it's a pretty fucking good argument though.

[Longview]

But there are also deeper resonances, such as how bland,obvious, shallow music can strike a chord with multitudes, while complex, scoring, intense structures of art are dismissed purely because one set of wave forms is undecipherable (to people not used to it). Of course, all this is purely subjective, and im not saying psy didnt strike on some sort of genius, hell ive tried the dance, but i think this goes to a deeper level of the quality of music.

Fuck it i'll say it. Metal is a superior form of music to pop. If Beethoven was alive today, he'd much sooner be at Soundwave than at Future music. I will bet all the money in the world on that, and if he is ever revived, you can pay me then. The day pop does an 11/8 time signature i'll shit gold bars. Metal pushes music to new places. Pop is copy and paste.

Your first paragraph here does not even remotely make any sort of sense. There's no such thing as shallow music or deep music. There's complex music, but that doesn't mean it's somehow inherently better than any other type of music. In fact, there's no redeemable qualities that could objectively make any form of music better than anything else. That's what subjective means. It's an opinion.

Pop is not a genre. Pop is short for popular. That's it.

Oh and by the way, when limiting yourself to one major genre of music, not only are you doing yourself a huge disservice; you also look completely ridiculous when acting superior about it. Also, you are aware that Beethoven was deaf? I doubt he'd go to any festivals if he lived today.

Metal pushes music to new places.

Could you please namedrop a couple of these experimental avant garde metal bands? You radiate of narrow-mindedness - I could give you a couple of pointers to actual music that does push boundaries.

Finally, most everyone puts a high emphasis on understanding lyrical content. Why? Why does it matter if you know what the vocalist has written? Dive into some poetry and stop glorifying singers as some sort of super-member of their respective bands. The voice is an instrument just like any other, why is it so important to you?

[Deleted]

Oh and by the way, when limiting yourself to one major genre of music, not only are you doing yourself a huge disservice; you also look completely ridiculous when acting superior about it. Also, you are aware that Beethoven was deaf? I doubt he'd go to any festivals if he lived today.

Metal is a massive genre that includes in its subgenres elements from almost all other genre ever.. About as broad as Rock music.

Could you please namedrop a couple of these experimental avant garde metal bands? You radiate of narrow-mindedness - I could give you a couple of pointers to actual music that does push boundaries.

Are you serious? You don't think Metal pushes boundaries. The above seems to suggest that.

[Longview]

Metal is a massive genre that includes in its subgenres elements from almost all other genre ever.. About as broad as Rock music.

Hence the word "major", want me to bold that?

Are you serious? You don't think Metal pushes boundaries. The above seems to suggest that.

So namedrop some bands that do push actual boundaries. That's easy, right? There's plenty of bands that has pushed the boundaries and pushed a lot of new ideas in metal, but their number is minuscule when you compare it to most electronic music.

[Deleted]

Hence the word "major", want me to bold that?

As Metal is so major, limiting oneself to it is not exactly anymore limiting that someone who just listens to Rock.

So namedrop some bands that do push actual boundaries. That's easy, right? There's plenty of bands that has pushed the boundaries and pushed a lot of new ideas in metal, but their number is minuscule when you compare it to most electronic music.

From what I listen to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdLDHIvFr2k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LB-tTvpogIU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPeThlQEJFY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyvOJlX4ZkE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubPDWJ1l-LI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k0f-ZxRJ_A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAyQZ6mq3vw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Jzl5XF6g64

Just from my collection at a glance.

[Badpaladin]

Metal is a massive genre that includes in its subgenres elements from almost all other genre ever.. About as broad as Rock music.

If it's going to turn into a game of who has the most subgenres, the Electronic Music is going to win, hands-down. It's not even close, actually. It's also pretty unreal just how many different styles have emerged from that, let alone the blending of more "traditional" styles of music. Metal has nothing on Electronic Music when it comes to variety.

Seriously though, it's not an argument worth giving any credence to (the lyrics bit). Why so many people who listen to Metal love to make themselves out as victims while acting out some aura of superiority is pretty weird, but then again so are the people who immediately dismiss any kind of Metal that isn't from the "Big Four" of Thrash due to some misconstrued ideas about purity, or an emphasis on the delivery of the lyrics. I guess I just sort of wish people enjoyed music rather than attempted to create an array of arguments for or against any particular style over another (seriously, variety equates to quality? What kind of fucking argument is that?).

[Deleted]

So namedrop some bands that do push actual boundaries. That's easy, right? There's plenty of bands that has pushed the boundaries and pushed a lot of new ideas in metal, but their number is minuscule when you compare it to most electronic music.

Boundaries are finite.

Do i dislike some metal songs because i cant understand the lyrics ? If they are screamed loudly and unintelligibly i mostly dislike the song but thats not because of the fact that i cant understand them but the fact that i do not favour the sound that is created by the interaction of scream, language and what else there is.
I would even go as far as to say i would like the song more without any lyrics at all.

---------- Post added 2012-10-18 at 09:27 PM ----------

If it's going to turn into a game of who has the most subgenres, the Electronic Music is going to win, hands-down. It's not even close, actually. It's also pretty unreal just how many different styles have emerged from that, let alone the blending of more "traditional" styles of music. Metal has nothing on Electronic Music when it comes to variety.

Seriously though, it's not an argument worth giving any credence to (the lyrics bit). Why so many people who listen to Metal love to make themselves out as victims while acting out some aura of superiority is pretty weird, but then again so are the people who immediately dismiss any kind of Metal that isn't from the "Big Four" of Thrash due to some misconstrued ideas about purity, or an emphasis on the delivery of the lyrics. I guess I just sort of wish people enjoyed music rather than attempted to create an array of arguments for or against any particular style over another (seriously, variety equates to quality? What kind of fucking argument is that?).

It more or less depends on what you define as subgenre :P

[Deleted]

Oh yeah, Beethoven would be at tomorrowland

[Deleted]

Seriously though, it's not an argument worth giving any credence to (the lyrics bit). Why so many people who listen to Metal love to make themselves out as victims while acting out some aura of superiority is pretty weird, but then again so are the people who immediately dismiss any kind of Metal that isn't from the "Big Four" of Thrash due to some misconstrued ideas about purity, or an emphasis on the delivery of the lyrics.

I guess you can blame Manowar and their beyond retarded lyrics and image for a lot of that. Of course they can't take all the blame for it, but I so agree with you here, I actually often feel uneasy in metal circles (mainly in teh interwebs but in rarer cases RL too) because of this and I stopped identifying myself as a metalhead to avoid association with that.

I mainly listen to post-metal and metalcore these days anyways and both are fringe territory for metal.

[Deleted]

So namedrop some bands that do push actual boundaries. That's easy, right? There's plenty of bands that has pushed the boundaries and pushed a lot of new ideas in metal, but their number is minuscule when you compare it to most electronic music.

It's not like it's hard to be original in electronic music when you can make all sorts of sound there.
In metal you have guitars and drums.

[Longview]

Boundaries are finite.

I betcha they are with an attitude like that!

It's not like it's hard to be original in electronic music when you can make all sorts of sound there.
In metal you have guitars and drums.

So why claim it's some sort of all-encompassing avant-garde prime supergenre? I'm exaggerating, but really. Metal is a genre where it still makes sense to be avant-garde because it is one of the most conservative fields of artistic practice in the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k0f-ZxRJ_A

I agree that uneXpect could be considered avant-garde. I don't see any other of the bands you linked bringing anything new to the table in terms of ideas or sound. While you could for example argue that a band like Machinae Supremacy was probably the first band to incorporate a chiptune-like sound in metal, it most certainly was not the first one utilizing synthesizers.

As Metal is so major, limiting oneself to it is not exactly anymore limiting that someone who just listens to Rock.

I'd say the exact same thing to someone limiting themselves to rock. Metal is a fraction of all the music that you could be listening to. There's so many wonderful works of art that you're potentially missing. There might be many wonderful works of art other people are missing because they're dismissing metal.

Don't get me wrong, I love metal. Without bands like Swans, Neurosis, Sunn O))), Boris, Bathory and Kyuss there'd be so many genres and so many albums I would never have enjoyed. The issue I have is that people who limit themselves to metal (metal-heads, if you will) tend to dismiss mostly anything that doesn't have distorted guitars (this is just my experience from having discussed music on text boards, forums, irc-channels and via instant messaging programs daily for years).

An old friend of mine got me into black metal and drone. I got him into more or less experimental electronic music: Tim Hecker, Oneohtrix Point Never, Tricky, Brian Eno, Burial, Autechre, James Blake, Aphex Twin, Shed, dgoHn, etc. It doesn't have to be us versus them; nobody wins, and everyone looks like self-righteous pricks. If you really wanted to find avant-garde music that actually pushes limits, you would be listening to abrasive noise or future jazz, and a lot of electronic music - not symphonic metal.

With that said, I'd like to emphasize that just because something is experimental or avant-garde doesn't make it objectively superior to anything else. Also, just because something is "a bit weird", or uses odd time-signatures does not make it avant-garde. If you were only interested in experimental music, you'd be limiting yourself even further. But that's the thing, everyone likes different things.

What I'm saying is branch out! Go listen to shoegaze! Dub-techno! Neo-folk! Instrumental trip-hop! Dark ambient! Post-punk! Noise-pop! Garage rock! IDM! Nu-disco! Hell, go listen to experimental ambient noise with Boris and Merzbow for over an hour! My point is essentially: you're missing out when listening only to metal. You're not Hitler.