New Warlock Spell - Cataclysm

[Xelnath]

So you're saying that Incinerate into a Fel Flame + Conflag isn't spikey?

[wholol]

So you're saying that Incinerate into a Fel Flame + Conflag isn't spikey?

nowhere near other classes in terms of spikiness.

Edit: I believe the reason they have higher spike damage is because they have procs while we do not, in fact all the casters stated are based on proc related instants.

[Xelnath]

They complain that their spike isn't as strong as Chaos Bolt.

[Nikijih]

So you're saying that Incinerate into a Fel Flame + Conflag isn't spikey?

I wont put words in his mouth cause i don't know if that's what he was saying, but to be fair, while spikey, that still doesnt compare to the kind of spikes other classes can pull. For that we would need our CBs, and thats where the issue arize.

Now im re-reading this and i reallize how it sounds like a petty "QQ i want what they have!" post, but at the end of the day I still believe that the biggest issue with destro is that everything has shifted with time towards instant/short cast abilities while destruction warlocks have been left as a casting dependent spec. The issue is that because of the "arms war" phenomenon, classes are/were given tools to deal with instant casting-cc spamming classes like mages and warriors, leaving the cast-dependent destruction lock at a steep disadvantage without tools dedicated to letting them cast.

EDIT:

They complain that their spike isn't as strong as Chaos Bolt.

This is what I meant when I said its a all-or-nothing experience. If somehow I can cast 3 CBs into you, you will explode and think "wow this is so OP!". But the moment they are aware of your presence, they wont let you cast, which then leaves the warlock frothing at the mouth out of sheer frustration.

With a shorter cast time, lower damage and higher ressource generation, we could keep the same PvE DPS while fixing a lot of things for PvP:
A) People dont complain about constant spikes, they complain when they get seemingly 1shot. Less people to fend off at your office :P
B) Less frustrating for the warlocks, as the spikes are easyer to actually cast, meaning the damage is more stable, more dependable.

[Xelnath]

Edit: I believe the reason they have higher spike damage is because they have procs while we do not, in fact all the casters stated are based on proc related instants.

Ahhh. Fascinating.

[wholol]

They complain that their spike isn't as strong as Chaos Bolt.

if their spikes had a cast time and build up rate equal to chaosbolt then I'd agree.
again we're back to this, chaos bolt hits hard yes, but the number alone does not make it better than other classes combinations, it's a matter of efficiency really, which do you think is more efficient for on demand spike damage without cds, huge cast times that require a while to build and deal tremendous damage but have a much lower chance of being pulled off or instant casts that deal moderate spikes and can be repeated a lot more often? it's a lot more efficient to pull off fast cast with instant procs than it is to pull off a slow cast that will catch the eyes of every single person in the enemy team, basically every time a warlock in high end arena casts a chaos bolt every single person in the enemy team is fully focused on the warlock.

Ahhh. Fascinating.

lol, I do not want to be stating the obvious, but I'm just being thorough so that nothing is missed.

[pokeadott]

So you're saying that Incinerate into a Fel Flame + Conflag isn't spikey?

Yup. It's pretty mediocre.

If you don't have experience with it, please go have a mage land a Forstbomb/Frostbolt/Lance on you while frozen, or ask a shadow priest to combo you, or an elle to fulimnation/LB, etc. The every 30 sec spike damage other casters pull off is crazy. It's not procs - it's mechanics. Fulmination builds up and is unleashed as an instant - that's not really a proc. Instant Mindblast is glyphed into mindspike. Mage shatters are inherent. Even hotstreak pyros are planned with shatter + inferno blast. Procs are not the issue - the design of warlock damage delivery doesn't jive with our piers.

CB is OP for 8-15 seconds every 2-3min. The spec is a wet noodle for the other 2min+. I think what you're hearing is we are fine with a nerf to CB top-end burst if we get better non-CD burst. Most casters can take 50% of a healthbar in a 2 second window every 30ish seconds. I'll gladly trade being able to take 90% of it every 2-3 minutes for that.

[Deleted]

what about a proc that gives a conflagrate charge with 100 % crit chance ?

[wholol]

Yup. It's pretty mediocre.

If you don't have experience with it, please go have a mage land a Forstbomb/Frostbolt/Lance on you while frozen, or ask a shadow priest to combo you, or an elle to fulimnation/LB, etc. The every 30 sec spike damage other casters pull off is crazy. It's not procs - it's mechanics. Fulmination builds up and is unleashed as an instant - that's not really a proc. Instant Mindblast is glyphed into mindspike. Mage shatters are inherent. Even hotstreak pyros are planned with shatter + inferno blast. Procs are not the issue - the design of warlock damage delivery doesn't jive with our piers.

CB is OP for 8-15 seconds every 2-3min. The spec is a wet noodle for the other 2min+. I think what you're hearing is we are fine with a nerf to CB top-end burst if we get better non-CD burst. Most casters can take 50% of a healthbar in a 2 second window every 30ish seconds. I'll gladly trade being able to take 90% of it every 2-3 minutes for that.

well, mechanics/ procs it's the same thing, they need a pre-requisite and happen based on % , fulmination is a stack based mechanic that works off of rolling thunder which is a 60% chance to proc an extra lightning charge, lava surge is a % based proc.
mage's frost bomb triggers brain freeze 100% chance, but brain freeze itself is a proc.
they need pre-requisites or % based chance to occur, call them procs or mechanics it's the same thing

anyways , sticking to the point, I do agree with whats being said 100%.

[Kirroth]

What's really interesting for me is just how different the demands of PvP damage are from PvE. In PvE you can build around high time-on-target and delicately balance proc effects over typical fight lengths. In PvP the time-on-target for casters comes in bursts. Use a CC or gap opener, get some casts off, then go back to kiting or turtling until you get another opening. This really changes the dynamic on power moves with proc chances versus power moves you have to build up for. In PvE you might get an equal number of both, but in PvP the former seem to have a clear advantage.

Regarding the one-shot complaints, right now Destro PvP is a one trick pony. It is, however, a very good trick. Stack your Chaos Bolt as high as it can go with GoSac and Mastery and cooldowns, fight to get an opening to cast, blow someone the hell up. I can see why it frustrates the hell out of the other guy if it works. They thought they were winning, they'd beaten the Warlock down to a low health level, then suddenly BOOM they're dead. However from the Warlock's PoV they earned that win by playing their class right. They survived long enough to build a couple Embers, created a casting window, and scored the kill. But turn it around, and if the Warlock can't get that Chaos Bolt off or it gets reflected or absorbed by an AMS or whatever, and they've lost their one chance at victory. That's what people mean by it being all or nothing.

The hell of it is that you need that sort of spike if you're going to get past a Warrior's Second Wind or a healer of any sort. So I don't know what can be done about it. I mean, maybe you can take CB off of GoSac and pump up the damage on the other spells. But that just drops Destro in an even deeper hole of needing to sit there getting off cast time spells, because you can't use Fel Flame for everything.

[pokeadott]

they need pre-requisites or % based chance to occur, call them procs or mechanics it's the same thing

anyways , sticking to the point, I do agree with whats being said 100%.

Sorry, just trying to make people get that it's not really random procs that set up burst, but rather predictable ones which to me translate into mechanics. But, yeah, either way Destro needs some love in between Dark Souls.

To try to simplify, a Destro lock can deliver the same damage as a Frost Mage or Shadow Priest over a 10 second free-casting window without cooldowns. However, the way in which that damage lands (80% at once for the mage or priest vs. the even-paced damage of a lock) makes a significant difference in scoring a kill in pvp.

[wholol]

ok so this is going for extremes, so bare with me a bit and let's test this theory out shall we.

how does it go if : first you buff incinerate/FF dmg by 5-10% and reduce inci's cast time by 0.2-0.4 secs and buff incinerate to generate twice as many embers as it used to, so 2 normal hit and 4 crit,then Chaos bolt gets a 20-30% dmg nerf, and having it become instant cast but with a 10-20 sec cd, same ember cost, then you change the way mana works in destro since CB is instant and wont be filling mana anymore so you add to any ember consuming ability a 15% instant mana return, similar to shadowburn, and since CB is instant that beats the point of having shadowburn have an ember for the same effect ( or just a bit more dmg) so remove the ember cost on shadowburn but give it a cd , let's say 10sec similar to hunter's kill shot.
This along with the addition of cataclysm should more than fix the issue ( especially since I have high hopes for that new prototype of KJC ).

how does that sound ? the cooldown on CB makes it so it cannot be chain casted if stacking embers, but the overall playstyle should be great since we'll have an abundance of embers which will in turn leave room for cataclysm/ember tap which will increase survival, of course % dmg buff/nerfs and cd/cast times can be fixed accordingly to keep pve balanced etc.

[Jessicka]

Every 2.6minutes you can cast for 8seconds if they don't simply interrupt it with a CC effect.

Of which, you've now used your defensive cooldown and won't be able to use it when you need it.

I think again, it's not so much lobbying, it's confusion as the intent of certain spells.

Remove the mitigation, bake it in elsewhere and cut the cooldown?

So you're saying that Incinerate into a Fel Flame + Conflag isn't spikey?

It is, but as has been noted as a problem for Affliction; healing is so strong that 'spikes' are largely ignorable, whereas it's the real full blown nukes that do the damage and get the kills.

From the outside in, the problems look pretty messy; healing is undoubtably strong when I have guildies laughing about beating a comp with an Affliction Warlock who put out over 8 million damage. The problem if you nerf healing though, is that the extreme burst of Chaos Bolts, Pyroblasts, etc become absolutely unhealable and it just excaserbates that problem.

[Brusalk]

ok so this is going for extremes, so bare with me a bit and let's test this theory out shall we.

how does it go if : first you buff incinerate/FF dmg by 5-10% and reduce inci's cast time by 0.2-0.4 secs and buff incinerate to generate twice as many embers as it used to, so 2 normal hit and 4 crit,then Chaos bolt gets a 20-30% dmg nerf, and having it become instant cast but with a 10-20 sec cd, same ember cost, then you change the way mana works in destro since CB is instant and wont be filling mana anymore so you add to any ember consuming ability a 15% instant mana return, similar to shadowburn, and since CB is instant that beats the point of having shadowburn have an ember for the same effect ( or just a bit more dmg) so remove the ember cost on shadowburn but give it a cd , let's say 10sec similar to hunter's kill shot.
This along with the addition of cataclysm should more than fix the issue ( especially since I have high hopes for that new prototype of KJC ).

how does that sound ? the cooldown on CB makes it so it cannot be chain casted if stacking embers, but the overall playstyle should be great since we'll have an abundance of embers which will in turn leave room for cataclysm/ember tap which will increase survival, of course % dmg buff/nerfs and cd/cast times can be fixed accordingly to keep pve balanced etc.

The only problem with that is that 4 embers (3 baseline) is a very small window when you'll be generating them so fast.

Why not tie the +mana regen in with Ember Tap?

The CD on Chaos Bolt is an interesting idea, but it'd also make single-target more interesting if there was a proc off of something (incins maybe) that reset the CD on chaos-bolt and made it instant with no cost. The damage would have to be nerfed further, but it'd give us another thing to do when trying to run around pushing some damage when we can't chaos bolt.


Going along with the idea of mana regen from ember tap, a result will be that our movement dps can go up significantly as we can spam Fel-Flame while spending embers on mana regen to keep up with the increased mana cost.

[Supernex]

nowhere near other classes in terms of spikiness.

Edit: I believe the reason they have higher spike damage is because they have procs while we do not, in fact all the casters stated are based on proc related instants.

Honestly, I would love it if Chaos Bolt hit for less, but had a faster cast time, and we had some sort of instant proc that hit somewhere between Incinerate /Chaos Bolt's damage. Balance it how you must, but it would make Destro more mobile, and more fun as well, (at least for me anyway). It would also be a great opportunity for a cool looking spell too. *blushes*

[wholol]

The only problem with that is that 4 embers (3 baseline) is a very small window when you'll be generating them so fast.

Why not tie the +mana regen in with Ember Tap?

The CD on Chaos Bolt is an interesting idea, but it'd also make single-target more interesting if there was a proc off of something (incins maybe) that reset the CD on chaos-bolt and made it instant with no cost. The damage would have to be nerfed further, but it'd give us another thing to do when trying to run around pushing some damage when we can't chaos bolt.


Going along with the idea of mana regen from ember tap, a result will be that our movement dps can go up significantly as we can spam Fel-Flame while spending embers on mana regen to keep up with the increased mana cost.

I did state " any ember consuming ability" ember tap is one of those so naturally it would grant mana back, also regarding a proc, ye could make an insta cast CB with no cost that only hits for like 50% of the dmg a normal CB deals.

there's a lot of potential .

[Jessicka]

The only problem with that is that 4 embers (3 baseline) is a very small window when you'll be generating them so fast.

Why not tie the +mana regen in with Ember Tap?

The CD on Chaos Bolt is an interesting idea, but it'd also make single-target more interesting if there was a proc off of something (incins maybe) that reset the CD on chaos-bolt and made it instant with no cost. The damage would have to be nerfed further, but it'd give us another thing to do when trying to run around pushing some damage when we can't chaos bolt.


Going along with the idea of mana regen from ember tap, a result will be that our movement dps can go up significantly as we can spam Fel-Flame while spending embers on mana regen to keep up with the increased mana cost.

Honestly, I would love it if Chaos Bolt hit for less, but had a faster cast time, and we had some sort of instant proc that hit somewhere between Incinerate /Chaos Bolt's damage. Balance it how you must, but it would make Destro more mobile, and more fun as well, (at least for me anyway). It would also be a great opportunity for a cool looking spell too. *blushes*

I thought we'd already established that Destruction isn't going to get RNG procs.

[MrHappy]

o.o if I can throw this in the Destro AoE toolkit I will be happy.

Fire and Brimstone>Immolate>Rain of Fire>CATAFUCKINGCLYSM!

correction since Cataclysm applies immolation + knockback + sun it would be

Cata-fire-in-your-face-lysm > Rain of Fire (with manaroth talent ofc) > Fire and Brimstone + Incinerate spam

[corebit]

Edit: btw xelnath , why don't you just tell us " I want some detailed info regarding X topic , what can you guys tell me about it in X Y Z situations" I'm pretty sure you would get MUCH more informative answers than all the random demands for buffs/ nerfs.

Then it stops being a conversation and becomes a QA thread which is not what the developers want. Developers LIKE feedback, but like to do it in between honest conversation between players.

The reason why Ghostcrawler stopped posting on the official forums altogether is because too many threads devolved into GC-attention baiting, and it was race between a few active posters demanding this or that and drowing out any opposing views.

I am sure we here on MMOC are not as short-sighted as the official forum posters, right?

Now on topic, I don't want to go back to WOTLK sustained "burst" (it's not even burst because we forget how low-hitting CBs were, it hit like a mage's normal fireball instead), and I certainly DON'T want to go back to the Cataclysm "fire affliction" model. I like the current destruction's high-risk high-reward, big-and-scary damage. It sets it unique among the other classes/specs. I am sure there are many others who share similar views or we wouldn't have the current design.

I think the spell Cataclysm in it's current incarnation is pretty powerful, and I think most importantly of all, does not overlap with other warlock spells. Of course there is still room for lots of improvement and stuff. We will definitely need to test its effectiveness in the PTR to get a feel if it's good enough to save the warlock while being trained.

[Grubjuice]

nowhere near other classes in terms of spikiness.

Edit: I believe the reason they have higher spike damage is because they have procs while we do not, in fact all the casters stated are based on proc related instants.

Ahhh. Fascinating.

I will say it again, although i know it was shot down before, i am strongly in favor of introducing a proc into the rotation,

something like fingers of frost+icelance but for Fel Flame instead. like: "periodic ticks of Immolate (or maybe just casts of incinerate/fel Flame) have a chance to make your next Fel Flame send 4 bolts instead of just one and cost no mana" and allocate some of the damage out of chaos bolt into this proc.