Few questions about prot paladins stats

[Bubblebutt]

There is no cap, since we can't get enough have to have 100% uptime on ShoR


Haste gives you more HoPo and HoPo gives you more more ShoR.

I'm not asking about caps for haste, i'm asking how much haste should I then get to make the cd reduction more beneficial then going avoidance. 5%?

[Deleted]

I'm not asking about caps for haste, i'm asking how much haste should I then get to make the cd reduction more beneficial then going avoidance. 5%?

the more the better. There are no numbers to strive after. more haste=faster hopo=higher uptime on sotr

[Aerai]

On bosses like Will of the Emp or Gara'jal heroic, what is haste going to do for the 100k hits the bosses are providing me, rather than me avoiding them? Is the haste just more fight dependent on a boss like Elegon for example where its mostly magic dmg and then you would want the haste for more dps since you can't avoid that dmg as well?

Elegon only really has 1 big magic attack.. he melees for far more damage over the course of the fight than that breath. As for Will.. being able to sit on 5 HP and quickly generate another 4 after his combo finishes is a HUGE difference. Haste is absolutely amazing for being able to time active mitigation in that fight.

[underdogba]

If you're on the bleeding edge of content and your gear isn't good enough to support the standard gearing strategy, then yes, haste may fall behind. It's similar to how monks in top guilds have been stacking mastery even though mastery is mathematically the worst stat for monk tanking--but it provides that little bit of compensation for being undergeared that they need. Mastery provides slightly more damage reduction for paladins than haste does, so if you really really need that extra bump than obviously mastery will be better. If not, than haste has other advantages--namely, more damage output and more healing (both for yourself and your group), in addition to giving you faster Holy Power generation.

This is a very important take-away from this whole discussion.

The reality is in practical terms that your gearing strategy may change based on how your gear level supports the characteristics of the content that you're doing. Being able to comfortably reach hit / exp hardcap changes your priorities significantly compared to what you might want to do struggling to reach those caps.

Also I'd like to point out that there is a lot of nuance to gemming, and in reality because of the fungibility of secondary stats, it makes no sense to argue over secondaries in gemming, because there are only a few options (assuming gemming for socket bonuses) --

1) Gemming full secondaries and hybrid stam in blue
2) Gemming full stam in blue and hybrid stam in red/yellow
3) Gemming full secondaries completely with hit in blue sockets

Whether you decide a red gem should be exp/hit versus exp/mastery vs full expertise is not a different gearing strategy, because all it means is that some reforge somewhere will have to change.

Deciding that a yellow should be mastery/expertise instead of full mastery is not an actual gearing decision either, because it just means that you may be able to keep more mastery on gear via reforge and still be at cap.

In chosing a gemming stategy, I recommend picking one of those strategies depending on how much health you need, then adjusting the exact secondary contents of gems to optimize hitting your caps more efficiently in conjunction with reforges. You can do this by manually setting the weights you want in a tool like mrrobot and locking the gem and enchant decisions you want in place, then tweaking your gems until you get an optimization that is acceptably close to 7.5% / 15%.

In general for most of the current content, I think a more secondary-heavy build is more efficient, such that when you really need more health you go double stam trinket. The rationale being that on trinkets, you trade 1.5 stam : 1.0 secondary, but on gems you trade 0.75 stam : 1.0 secondary. In the same vein, the stam to cloak enchant is objectively superior to the hit one, simply because the only place to trade stam for hit is on gems, and you do better getting hit from gems versus the 200 stam : 180 hit trade on the enchants.

[Deleted]

Again, and I dont know if I havent seen it. But was it worth it to reforge into parry og dodge if Parry isnt 2.5x higher than dodge?

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Generally speaking it isn't worth reforging anything into dodge or parry.

[Ferocity]

Elegon only really has 1 big magic attack.. he melees for far more damage over the course of the fight than that breath. As for Will.. being able to sit on 5 HP and quickly generate another 4 after his combo finishes is a HUGE difference. Haste is absolutely amazing for being able to time active mitigation in that fight.

Mhmm, what combo are you speaking about for Will? I don't see how haste is benefiting during his Devastating Combo if you are about it.

People shouldn't forget that you need loads of haste to actually make meaningful difference. You will have to sacrifice so much of other stats that in result you will end with very weak ShoR/WoG buffs and with little to no avoidance.

[Kanadei]

People shouldn't forget that you need loads of haste to actually make meaningful difference. You will have to sacrifice so much of other stats that in result you will end with very weak ShoR/WoG buffs and with little to no avoidance.

I'd like to see the numbers for this before we assume this is correct, especially pointing out whether haste or mastery is more effective for the low number of secondaries we get after hit/experitse capping in around 475-480 ilvl gear.

[Bubblebutt]

I'm starting to see some tanks start to reforge to about 5.4% haste or so in 489-500 ilvl w/o sacrificing a whole lot. Still can't see that 5.4% being the make or break point of making haste a necessity.

[Deleted]

Elegon only really has 1 big magic attack.. he melees for far more damage over the course of the fight than that breath. As for Will.. being able to sit on 5 HP and quickly generate another 4 after his combo finishes is a HUGE difference. Haste is absolutely amazing for being able to time active mitigation in that fight.

Id assume your will point would only really matter if you messed up the dance bit and didnt get an opportunity strike. Regardless, you should always come out of the dance with 5 HP to keep a nice sustained SoTR buff on you regardless of your haste. Fight is much more dependant on player skill than what secondary stat (mastery/haste) imo.

[Elathi]

Id assume your will point would only really matter if you messed up the dance bit and didnt get an opportunity strike.

Why assume that?

Fight is much more dependant on player skill than what secondary stat (mastery/haste) imo.

A statement not the least bit unique to the Will fight.

[Deleted]

Why assume that?



A statement not the least bit unique to the Will fight.

Well the damage only really ramps up if you get the armour debuff stacks on you from failing the dance. How many additional ShotR do you think you're generating between each dance phase btw on a high haste build at current gear lvls? As I said, with either build methodology you're finishing the dance at 5HP.

I think tank player skill on will plays a MUCH more important factor to how easy the fight is then on any other fight.
If the tank doesn't perform superbly then it becomes so much harder. Slight mistakes in rotation/positioning/cd usage is far more forgiving in pretty much all other fights.

I stand by my points.

[Xs]

Haste is going to help with your margin of error and allow you to make up for small, split second delays that you might have by focusing on your dances

If you can hit that move before you have to move for the dance, rather than during, thats going to be enough of a difference in itself to make haste worth it, along with the added melee swings helping with healing, and additional damage over the alternatives (which don't give anything meaningful compared to haste)

You've got to think of haste in the long term, if everyone looked at it as 0.1% differences in cast/cd time then noone would ever use it, for Prot you have to look at the full rotation and how long it takes to build, for instance the small amount of haste being talked about in this thread, which is barely 3 items worth, is going to be dropping your 3HP cycle by 0.5 seconds, then into 1 second quicker, 1.5 and so on, thats going to add up very quickly and every time its able to hit an extra melee attack thats going to be a potentially massive increase to survival and damage reduction.

[Aceshigh]

Well the damage only really ramps up if you get the armour debuff stacks on you from failing the dance. How many additional ShotR do you think you're generating between each dance phase btw on a high haste build at current gear lvls? As I said, with either build methodology you're finishing the dance at 5HP.

I think tank player skill on will plays a MUCH more important factor to how easy the fight is then on any other fight.
If the tank doesn't perform superbly then it becomes so much harder. Slight mistakes in rotation/positioning/cd usage is far more forgiving in pretty much all other fights.

I stand by my points.

Have you actually tanked it? he can fucking melee you for 300k without any of the armor debuff, and he can swing every like 1.5s or something. The damage of that fight ramps up every single time they're not doing the devastating combo.

[Deleted]

Have you actually tanked it? he can fucking melee you for 300k without any of the armor debuff, and he can swing every like 1.5s or something. The damage of that fight ramps up every single time they're not doing the devastating combo.

Yes i have (insert random unnecessary expletive) - but my question remains - how many more ShotR do you expect to squeeze in between dances (afaik they happen every 20 secs) stacking say haste over mastery. i honestly dont know hence i asked the question, but im guessing it wont make much (if any) difference.

[Aceshigh]

Yes i have (insert random unnecessary expletive) - but my question remains - how many more ShotR do you expect to squeeze in between dances (afaik they happen every 20 secs) stacking say haste over mastery. i honestly dont know hence i asked the question, but im guessing it wont make much (if any) difference.

My response was in regards to your "Well the damage only really ramps up if you get the armour debuff stacks on you from failing the dance", which is certainly not the case, not even close.

[Deleted]

My response was in regards to your "Well the damage only really ramps up if you get the armour debuff stacks on you from failing the dance", which is certainly not the case, not even close.

Well outside the dances incoming tank damage is predictable and perfectly managable, unless: a) you have failed to dance correctly then it will ramp up quite a lot , or b) gas phase (cds). Obviously there's no tank damage during the dance if done correctly.

[Elathi]

Forgive me, rawhammer. The initial phrasing of the point seemed a bit odd/off, but I don't disagree with you. Ignoring Grand Crusader procs for simplicity, squeezing in an extra Shield of the Righteous and making use of its buff would take about Bloodlust/Heroism levels of haste. So you're perfectly right, whatever amount of it one might try to stack right now isn't very likely to make a difference on Will.

[Deleted]

Forgive me, rawhammer. The initial phrasing of the point seemed a bit odd/off, but I don't disagree with you. Ignoring Grand Crusader procs for simplicity, squeezing in an extra Shield of the Righteous and making use of its buff would take about Bloodlust/Heroism levels of haste. So you're perfectly right, whatever amount of it one might try to stack right now isn't very likely to make a difference on Will.

Naw you have a point - trouble with posting on a smart phone whilst making "a strategic redistribution of company assets" in the staff bogs at work i guess (id had lunch in the work canteen).

tmi?

[underdogba]

Forgive me, rawhammer. The initial phrasing of the point seemed a bit odd/off, but I don't disagree with you. Ignoring Grand Crusader procs for simplicity, squeezing in an extra Shield of the Righteous and making use of its buff would take about Bloodlust/Heroism levels of haste. So you're perfectly right, whatever amount of it one might try to stack right now isn't very likely to make a difference on Will.

It does make a difference on Will for two very concrete reasons:

1) The benefit of haste is not discrete in the way that you're insinuating. Every point of haste increases the average uptime of the SotR buff, and there is no actual breakpoint that you need to hit for this to be a benefit. Even though the gimmick damage feature of this fight is something that is completely countered by movement, there is still regular damage to be mitigated.

2) Haste adds a nontrivial amount of dps to your total raid dps. Whether or not this is a factor in scoring a kill is highly variable from raid to raid, but it is not something we can just dismiss on general principle.