The new Invocation Change! - Build 16208

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Uh, not really. Your 2min cd Mana gems will hardly make a dent in your 300k mana bar towards that goal... how in the world would that make any significant change to teh actual annoyance of being forced to obnoxiously channel evocate every 40 secs?

Because I only need about 2 seconds of channeling to bring me to full. Mana gem is over 1/6th of my bar, without 5% haste.

I'm actually expecting an invoc power nerf because of this.

[zomgDPS]

This isn't a nerf to arcane, as long as you always evocate back up to full (which you should be doing regardless.)

Do you think before you type? Or just start typing whatever spews out your mouth?

Read my post. then comment. If you can prove the math wrong, then do so please. But don't just walk up and so "NO U WRONG". Just telling someone "UR RRONG" doesn't actually make a compelling argument, especially when that person's argument is backed up by facts and logic.

The more you know.

[LocNess]

Do you think before you type? Or just start typing whatever spews out your mouth?

Read my post. then comment. If you can prove the math wrong, then do so please. But don't just walk up and so "NO U WRONG". Just telling someone "UR RRONG" doesn't actually make a compelling argument, especially when that person's argument is backed up by facts and logic.

The more you know.

And you don't have the exact math either. This is brand new. People haven't tested it. For all you know, it could end up a completely different way of playing and managing mana and uptime. Still needs time to be tested. Just like the 3sec CD Pyro nerf, still hasn't been enough testing to suggest whether or not it ruins us or not

[Deleted]

Would be funny if this change made belfs top dps race due to their racial.

[Ellsian]

Because I only need about 2 seconds of channeling to bring me to full. Mana gem is over 1/6th of my bar, without 5% haste.

I'm actually expecting an invoc power nerf because of this.

It doesn't actually change anything gameplay wise. Pre-pull, it's a qol fix, but it's not addressing what the majority of people were actually upset about with having to stand still and channel evocate so often in fights.

And I just tested on a dummy. In 40 secs under a normal single rotation I can easily burn my mana down to between 60-50%. I still need a near full Evocation to reach 100% again. And that doesnt even take into account aoe, multi target, etc which would burn even more mana in raids,

[LocNess]

Would be funny if this change made belfs top dps race due to their racial.

I actually thought of this, and it is only 6% every 2min. It probably allows an extra 5 seconds of uptime every CD use if you use it at ~94%. That is being generous (assuming spells are being casted like Fireball or Frostbolt, not Combustion or something). So over the course of an 8min fight that gives you around 15-20 seconds of extra uptime you don't have to worry about. I am extremely tired right now so could be iffy on math so if I look like an idiot, then I accept that

[Ellsian]

And you don't have the exact math either. This is brand new. People haven't tested it. For all you know, it could end up a completely different way of playing and managing mana and uptime. Still needs time to be tested. Just like the 3sec CD Pyro nerf, still hasn't been enough testing to suggest whether or not it ruins us or not

There are already reports from PTR from mages about the 3 sec pyro change....

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6998969862 "Fire Mage PVE flow feels broken"

[Stache]

Pretty much this. It's a fairly big quality of life change, that's going to make prepping for the pull much simpler.

Also, a little OT: Are you sure you still need to de-equip your weapon? I was spamming evocation for a couple minutes on the ptr, and had no jade spirit procs throughout it (unless it's something that only affects windsong).

yeah i edited my post, without having to evocate there's no worried about procing Jade Spirit early! Woot!

[LocNess]

There are already reports from PTR from mages about the 3 sec pyro change....

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6998969862 "Fire Mage PVE flow feels broken"

Doesn't apply. Feeling clunky and off doesn't change our DPS output. That is what I am referring to, the actual math behind everything. Yeah some things seem useless, but in the grand scheme of things all that matters is our damage output.

[thehordemage]

This is more than just a quality of life improvement for Fire and Frost. This means you don't ever have to channel Evocation for its full duration unless you are nearing 40%, which translates into more dps time. It also gives a little meaning to mana gems now since any mana you can recover via gems means less time channeling Evocation. Just the fact that there are now options to manage your mana smarter in this way via different lengths of evocate is pretty cool. And if the spell remains this way it's a little extra bonus on fights with +haste buffs (sinestra, gara'jal) for extra mana regen.

[zomgDPS]

And you don't have the exact math either. This is brand new.

What on earth are you smoking?? Of course we have the math. We have had it for 6 months now.

They are not changing the cost of spells. Mana pools aren't suddenly becoming scaled, they are just as static as when the change was made in the beta.
I do not need to "test" that 2+2=4.

So yea.. please stop trolling.



As a side point, by the same logic I applied before, this change helps frost mages out more than fire mages (and is worst for arcane, obviously).

This is simply because frost is the most naturally mana efficient spec, which means, that frost mages, on average will spend less time evocating now.

E.g.

If a fire mage needs to spend 4 seconds to get to full mana (and hence get the buff), frost mages will only need 1 second of evocation channeling to get the same effect. This means that frost mages will actually have the highest DPS uptime of all specs, hence being a buff for them.


I love how every change thats being made is buffing Lhivera's spec the most at the expense of Arcane.

[korsic]

What on earth are you smoking?? Of course we have the math. We have had it for 6 months now.

They are not changing the cost of spells. Mana pools aren't suddenly becoming scaled, they are just as static as when the change was made in the beta.
I do not need to "test" that 2+2=4.

So yea.. please stop trolling.



As a side point, by the same logic I applied before, this change helps frost mages out more than fire mages (and is worst for arcane, obviously).

This is simply because frost is the most naturally mana efficient spec, which means, that frost mages, on average will spend less time evocating now.

E.g.

If a fire mage needs to spend 4 seconds to get to full mana (and hence get the buff), frost mages will only need 1 second of evocation channeling to get the same effect. This means that frost mages will actually have the highest DPS uptime of all specs, hence being a buff for them.


I love how every change thats being made is buffing Lhivera's spec the most at the expense of Arcane.

Show us the math.

[Underskilled]

yeah i edited my post, without having to evocate there's no worried about procing Jade Spirit early! Woot!

Much success! Though I meant more, can evocation even still proc Jade Spirit? I was trying to get it to proc, evocating over and over at max mana, but simply could not get it proc. Was I just getting unlucky? Or a possible stealth change?

[Stache]

Much success! Though I meant more, can evocation even still proc Jade Spirit? I was trying to get it to proc, evocating over and over at max mana, but simply could not get it proc. Was I just getting unlucky? Or a possible stealth change?

as of last night at 10pm CDT my jade spirit was still procing during evocate.

---------- Post added 2012-10-26 at 02:34 PM ----------

Do you think before you type? Or just start typing whatever spews out your mouth?

Read my post. then comment. If you can prove the math wrong, then do so please. But don't just walk up and so "NO U WRONG". Just telling someone "UR RRONG" doesn't actually make a compelling argument, especially when that person's argument is backed up by facts and logic.

The more you know.

Please stop. You aren't adding anything to this conversation.

[schwarzkopf]

My assumption about the change is this:

You finish the evocate at 80% mana - you get the buff for 40 seconds (as you do now)
You finish the evocate at 100% mana - you get the buff permanently until you drop below 100% mana, then after 40 seconds you lose the buff.

What I don't read into the change is any idea that you get the buff back just by being at 100% mana again (without evocating).

Meaning - in combat, apart from the first pull - you will not notice ANY difference.

If I'm wrong and you have to evocate to full mana every time, then that will kill that talent for my arcane mage. Frequently I miss the numbers by a 10k or so and end up at like 96% or something, having to evocate again would kill it.

[Shangalar]

Yes, that's exactly the idea. Invocation will be a passive talent (I suppose they forgot to add passive in brackets to it) which will trigger every time you hit full mana from any source. At least based on the current text on the spell. It really is a nice change for all 3 specs because you don't always lose the buff at the mana required for a full evocation channel to be useful (except in Arcane where most of the time you do).

Also, welcome back zomgdps, I missed my share of Fox News logic and argumentation since I'm on the other side of the world and can't even see Fox News.

[Stache]

My assumption about the change is this:

You finish the evocate at 80% mana - you get the buff for 40 seconds (as you do now)
You finish the evocate at 100% mana - you get the buff permanently until you drop below 100% mana, then after 40 seconds you lose the buff.

What I don't read into the change is any idea that you get the buff back just by being at 100% mana again (without evocating).

Meaning - in combat, apart from the first pull - you will not notice ANY difference.

right, but think of fights like heroic Gara'jal where if you go downstairs you get full mana. There's little ways this buff will help in a larger way than what you might think.

[Ellsian]

Meaning - in combat, apart from the first pull - you will not notice ANY difference.

Ding ding ding. You'll still be standing still, channeling like a derp every 40 secs anyways. This may shave off 1-2 seconds with a mana gem every so often, and that's it.

And if you die and get brezed, guess what? NO BUFF FOR U.

[thehordemage]

My assumption about the change is this:

You finish the evocate at 80% mana - you get the buff for 40 seconds (as you do now)
You finish the evocate at 100% mana - you get the buff permanently until you drop below 100% mana, then after 40 seconds you lose the buff.

What I don't read into the change is any idea that you get the buff back just by being at 100% mana again (without evocating).

Meaning - in combat, apart from the first pull - you will not notice ANY difference.

If I'm wrong and you have to evocate to full mana every time, then that will kill that talent for my arcane mage. Frequently I miss the numbers by a 10k or so and end up at like 96% or something, having to evocate again would kill it.

Well the new tooltip no longer says that you must complete an evocate. Evocate isn't even required for Invoker's Energy anymore. Finishing an evocate at 80% doesn't give you a buff. If you evocate for 1 sec but get to 100% mana you get the +25% spell damage buff.

At 100% mana you have a 40 sec +25% spell damage buff (which lasts forever) until you drop below that, and it always refreshes again instantly when you hit 100% mana again.

[zomgDPS]

Show us the math.

The math is simple as sh!t, but fine.

We will mathematically compare Frost and Fire's MPS output on an average cycle (i.e one that can easily occur during the course of a 40 second invoc buff super cycle)

To keep things simple, i will keep haste and mana regen out of it since they are both identical in both scenarios and will cancel each other out.

For Fire

Fireball: 2.25 second cast, 4% mana (1 usage)
Inferno blast: 1.5 second cast (GCD), 2% mana (1 use, crit force)
Pyro: 1.5 sec, free mana
Combust: 1.5 sec, 10% mana

totals: 7.5 second cycle, 15.25% mana spent
Total MPS: ~2% per second


For Frost

Frostbolt: 2 sec cast, 4% mana (1 use)
IL: 1.5 sec cast, 1% mana (2 uses)
FFB: 1.5 sec cast, free mana (1 use)

totals: 6.5 second cycle, 6% mana usage.
Total MPS: ~1% per second


Conclusion: Frost's MPS usage is almost half that of Fire's. This means that Frost will need to spend less time Evocating to reach Max mana than Fire will.
This means Frost has higher DPS uptime than Fire with this change.

This means it is a buff for Frost.



n.b If you need me to do the math that shows Arcane has the highest MPS than all the other specs, then I won't because even an idiot knows that to be true