The Problem of GW2 PvE

[barackopala]

The point made for kildragon is quite much how i feel, PvE is feeling lackluster with this kind of setup while PvP is on other level, way more ahead, it's not a bad thing, but it's a different path, I hope a-net takes advantage from this and develops an e-sport scene sorrounding it.

[zito]

snip

I agree with you on most part. However there is a simple fix to GW2 PvE that the removal of the trinity broke. Display more "televised" effects and less in your face insane damage.

Meaning a bosses auto attack isn't going to 2 shot you with full toughness. Sure it might hit for 1k but simple attacks isn't what dungeon players should be looking out for.

Fights need more scripted events that will one shot you or get you down dangerously low or give you a handy cap. Handy caps you find in jumping puzzles for instance (chaos crystal cavern gives you debuffs to make you fall like making you grow too big or making you to fast while you jump).

A perfect example of an encounter on the right path is the ghost boss in ascalonian catacombs exploreable mode. He does his super power up animation and then pulls everyone in, and then spins around and one shots anyway still in his way. You dodge before he finishes his cast or reflect it. His auto attack however hits too hard. This is implemented because of lack of mechanics. The fight could of been more interesting if he did less auto attack damage, but he did something else.
A suggestion would be that he spawns adds that will root you, preventing you from dodging out of his whirlwind.

This would of made the fight 5x more interesting, and more punishing then high auto attack damage however unlike auto attack damage you actually have a chance to do something against it and you wouldn't need a trinity system because the boss would attack whoever he felt like and that person would deal with his lower auto attack damage but still take a consistent hit.

The problem with this fight is that the boss gets lost in the spell animations. Bigger bosses however are fine because you can see them, smaller ones however get unnecessary harder because of their size.

[ControlBlue]

Meaning a bosses auto attack isn't going to 2 shot you with full toughness. Sure it might hit for 1k but simple attacks isn't what dungeon players should be looking out for.

Fights need more scripted events that will one shot you or get you down dangerously low or give you a handy cap.

I totally agree with the less auto-damage, and I do so because I think what the PvE needs is to have the numbers and rpg back in.

GW2 does a fantastic jobs taking care of the action side, where it is lacking is the rpg/number side, and for that problem to be solved they need to make the game care more about things like damage prevention, HPS, and DPS. Less one-shots deciding victory, graveyard-zerging killed, and mechanics like enrages, damage burst phase, ect...

That will do a lot of great things to the game,make it more about maximizing boons uptime, force the gigantic health bars away, AND allow people to be more than dodging bots, people would have to specialize!
And by that I am NOT asking for a trinity model with this specialization thing. It would just allow people to gear/traits their character to something they are good at, we could have people that can help groups stay longer up without using their heals through okay AoE heals, others that can better CC and damage mobs thanks to their build.

Pretty much have the prevention of damage, the damage capabilities, and the sustainability of groups be a determining factor alongside action factors in the group victory in PvE!

Even with a system like this, GW2 would still remain trinity-free, with no LF Heals, as everyone has heals.

EDIT:

GW2 has the potential to create the first PvE with a real "dont bring the class/role", unfortunately the supporters of the Trinity Model and WoW supporters uses the shortcomings of GW2 PvE as a proof that the Trinity is needed to create any meaningful PvE, and with their numbers they can definitely impose that idea to everyone else. Anet needs to do something against this idea fast before it gets cemented into the gamers mind (believe it or not, those kind of apprehension spread fast nowadays) and further tag GW2 as a bad PvE game.

[Kelimbror]

GW1 was a niche game dont try and deny that, only a handful of gamers enjoyed it due to how different it was. Bear in mind different doesnt always mean better.

This numerical data would like to have a word with you:

Guild Wars Prophecies, including expansion packs: Factions Nightfall Eye of the North

6.5 million in North America, Europe, and Asia[12]

N/A

Guild Wars

April 28, 20

Source

[Deleted]

Excuse me, but playing GW2 is the same "1,2,4,5,3 -repeat" as wow. But in wow there are more skills, than just 5 and situational cooldowns.

I disagree here. Playing, for example, healer in istance in the "trinity model" is the same "1,2...." just healing plain and simple. Just watch health bars while watching tv. Boring as hell. (same for tank or dps). You have to focus just on 1 aspect and thats all.

In gw2 the "situational cds" and the right timing using abilities is the difference from "gy zerging istances" (quite popular in this thread) and finishing it without deaths at all. I enjoy much more this kind of approach than just heal/just dps/just tank.

ps. having more abilities that do the same thing is not more funny in my opinion.

[Sackman]

You are lucky. It is plenty of games out there where you can find that.

I enjoy much more gw2 gameplay, where i dont get bored in doing all the time the same stuff. I enjoy the fact i can group with all classes without having to find "healer" or "tank" and i have to work with my group in order to succeed. No more "1,2,4,5,3 - repeat" but different approach in every group you play with.

I like very much gw2 PvE, it is different. Maybe thats the real problem?

I understand what you're saying but disagree entirely.

GW2 Combat is the only thing the game 'lacks' for me. It is different, it is action oriented and it's by no means dull - but your "no more 1,2,4,5,3" is entirely incorrect.

In fact, it has the problem worse than WoW does. In any PvE fight, you may as well just unload your skills. A rifle warrior for example, 4 is a shot that deals damage and causes vulnerability (Flat % damage modifier). 2 is a shot that deals damage and applys cripple. Your auto shot stacks bleed and deal damage, while 3 fires shots in succession with no modifier save for increased damage per shot. 5 pushes the target back.

So optimum rotation? 4-2-3-1-1-1-1-5(when target gets near you if melee) - and then it's just a case of hitting whatever comes off CD first like a wotlk ret pally. Alternatively, switch weapon set when everything is off cd - for a similar experience, I used sword/axe, 1 auto bleed, 2 gap closer/damage combo finisher, 3 damage cripple, 4 damage boon fury, 5 combo finisher, multiple attacks increased damage (like the 3 of the rifle).

It's not really different at all for it's button pushing. It is still very much based on your bar - as it should be.

PvP and group play is slightly different, albeit - in group play you don't actually need to do anything different but it will benefit you if you did.

Essentially, as a supporting role - typical of ele and guardian but also mesmer - and some classes have some other fields on particular weapons but they are rare, you want to be placing fields to enhance the others ability and which ones you choose depends on the fight and whats happening - certainly a choice and different from the typical model.

While the other classes, that have less fields or just straight buffs (for example warrior banners, hunter pets, shouts etc), they want to utilise the fields as much as possible with combo finishers - leap, blast, etc.

This is different, and it's how you win in PVP also, but it is flat and shallow. The idea essentially - past the objective of the map you play, is to stack conditions on them, boons on yourself and evade damage through dodging.



However that's also the fun of it - you focus on the world, the story, and developing your character how you want. I like my dota2 pvp, and my sc2 for pvp, and competition, gw2 combat is shallow and unsatisfying, but to expect more from an MMO would be silly.

[ControlBlue]

I disagree here. Playing, for example, healer in istance in the "trinity model" is the same "1,2...." just healing plain and simple. Just watch health bars while watching tv. Boring as hell. (same for tank or dps). You have to focus just on 1 aspect and thats all.

In gw2 the "situational cds" and the right timing using abilities is the difference from "gy zerging istances" (quite popular in this thread) and finishing it without deaths at all. I enjoy much more this kind of approach than just heal/just dps/just tank.

ps. having more abilities that do the same thing is not more funny in my opinion.

So you are basically thinking that all the people who massively enjoy that "boring" PvE in WoW are just doing it wrong? What are the probabilities that you are right and all those millions of people who left WoW for multiple games but always came back to it (including GW2) are playing something they don't realize is boring? All I can say is that they have numbers on their side, you don't!

The "abilities that do the same thing" in WoW actually do the same thing differently, triage in healing determine who is the most efficient healer, rotation with multiple "same" damaging abilities for DPS, and situational awareness and good usage of multiple "same" CD for tanks. That "boring" system does a better at determining skills level than the "one-shot/dodge" system of GW2 PvE.

As much as people love to bash on the Trinity Model, it has proved that it can make interesting PvE encouters, as much as GW2 boasted that this model was bad, they have failed to create a meaningful PvE, so yeah right now its pretty much Trinity 1 - GW2 0.

Also, a WoW character as a lot more "situational" abilities he can use to determine victory or defeat, both in PvE and in PvP. The ONLY thing where GW2 is better than WoW in that regard is the customization available with skills, other than that WoW has end down a better approach to their gameplay.

Hopefully I hope there will be a comeback, GW2 will NOT thrive by being just a paid tournament game, they WILL need a proper PvE to detract all those people from WoW (which is unfortunately the only way to reliably get more player in your game).



Also, there is one thing that is really worrying me. As Fencers said, the game combat is really, really boring to watch :/, too much special effect and too much chaos both in animations and effects, I fear that it might have an effect on the E-sport/competitive side of the game. It's even more difficult to tell what is in happening than in WoW PvP.

[Gray_Matter]

I wonder what is going to sustain the game, PvE obviously won't.

That's awfully presumptuous of you. To date the PVE has done just perfectly for me. I have 31% map completion, haven't done any dungeons or leveled crafts to full and am having a whale of a time. I used to raid in wow so you can't use that as a reason for me being happy and other not. I am not a representation of everyone and neither are you.

---------- Post added 2012-11-06 at 01:23 PM ----------

I think the game has enough quality to continue to be very popular, even if I dont like it, I realise that for every one of me there will be a lot more who do like what anet have done. I think this game has a big enough buzz about it and that will continue if they keep releasing content, even if that content is more filler quests and jumping puzzles than new dungeons/systems/bgs. Im sure we will see a development of the pve system at some point, for most people pve is still new and enjoyable, much like all mmo developers, anet will continue to add new systems in to the game to keep it fresh. No longer can developers sit on 6 months of no content updates....well unless you're playing my favourite game of choice ofc

I think the biggest spin off of GW2 is that it will change the landscape. As you say, companies won't be able to release new content every 7+ months. People are going to expect some value for their money or a change in the payment model. That's a good thing, even for those people who don't like GW2 or are fans of other MMO's.

[Sackman]

I totally agree with the less auto-damage, and I do so because I think what the PvE needs is to have the numbers and rpg back in.

GW2 does a fantastic jobs taking care of the action side, where it is lacking is the rpg/number side, and for that problem to be solved they need to make the game care more about things like damage prevention, HPS, and DPS. Less one-shots deciding victory, graveyard-zerging killed, and mechanics like enrages, damage burst phase, ect...

That will do a lot of great things to the game,make it more about maximizing boons uptime, force the gigantic health bars away, AND allow people to be more than dodging bots, people would have to specialize!
And by that I am NOT asking for a trinity model with this specialization thing. It would just allow people to gear/traits their character to something they are good at, we could have people that can help groups stay longer up without using their heals through okay AoE heals, others that can better CC and damage mobs thanks to their build.

Pretty much have the prevention of damage, the damage capabilities, and the sustainability of groups be a determining factor alongside action factors in the group victory in PvE!

Even with a system like this, GW2 would still remain trinity-free, with no LF Heals, as everyone has heals.

EDIT:

GW2 has the potential to create the first PvE with a real "dont bring the class/role", unfortunately the supporters of the Trinity Model and WoW supporters uses the shortcomings of GW2 PvE as a proof that the Trinity is needed to create any meaningful PvE, and with their numbers they can definitely impose that idea to everyone else. Anet needs to do something against this idea fast before it gets cemented into the gamers mind (believe it or not, those kind of apprehension spread fast nowadays) and further tag GW2 as a bad PvE game.

Rather than speccing into AoE heals like you say, they just need to make it so there is a more demonstrable effect on the combat from what already exists.

The 5 abilities on the right hand side of the bar, could have abilities that really define PvE encounters for everyone, abilities that when used have a very noticeable effect on the encounter - rather than what they do now which is effect, but not in such a way that anyone notices and therefore learns to do.

Like, if a Mesmer throws down a Chaos Storm, you barely have time to do something in it because you are too busy maximising DPS by rotation your 1-5 abilities and the storm lasts such a short amount of time. And even if you do combine with it, there isn't a great deal to get from it, the effect is so small there is no point saving cooldowns for it, so unless it comes up in conjunction with the cooldown its pointless.

TL;DR, they need to make it so the profession combo's are more noticeable.

---------- Post added 2012-11-06 at 01:34 PM ----------

So you are basically thinking that all the people who massively enjoy that "boring" PvE in WoW are just doing it wrong? What are the probabilities that you are right and all those millions of people who left WoW for multiple games but always came back to it (including GW2) are playing something they don't realize is boring? All I can say is that they have numbers on their side, you don't!

The "abilities that do the same thing" in WoW actually do the same thing differently, triage in healing determine who is the most efficient healer, rotation with multiple "same" damaging abilities for DPS, and situational awareness and good usage of multiple "same" CD for tanks. That "boring" system does a better at determining skills level than the "one-shot/dodge" system of GW2 PvE.

As much as people love to bash on the Trinity Model, it has proved that it can make interesting PvE encouters, as much as GW2 boasted that this model was bad, they have failed to create a meaningful PvE, so yeah right now its pretty much Trinity 1 - GW2 0.

Also, a WoW character as a lot more "situational" abilities he can use to determine victory or defeat, both in PvE and in PvP. The ONLY thing where GW2 is better than WoW in that regard is the customization available with skills, other than that WoW has end down a better approach to their gameplay.

Hopefully I hope there will be a comeback, GW2 will NOT thrive by being just a paid tournament game, they WILL need a proper PvE to detract all those people from WoW (which is unfortunately the only way to reliably get more player in your game).



Also, there is one thing that is really worrying me. As Fencers said, the game combat is really, really boring to watch :/, too much special effect and too much chaos both in animations and effects, I fear that it might have an effect on the E-sport/competitive side of the game. It's even more difficult to tell what is in happening than in WoW PvP.

I played WoW for 6 years then quit last year, and picked up GW2 this year, to play a little. I haven't returned to WoW or any other game, despite recognising GW2's flaws.

Please stop making it a WoW vs GW2, there are comparisons to be made but it isn't a popularity contest, they are different games for different people. Instead, we want to discuss what can be changed to GW2 PVE to make it more engaging, without losing that which makes it GW2, a trinity model is not required, and your preference to it notwithstanding is just going to get this thread closed.

We are not looking to come back to WoW, none of us are looking to fill your regurgitated hypothesis, and frankly, nobody is interested in your tallying up some arbitrary score for your own amusement.

[Fencers]

In gw2 the "situational cds" and the right timing using abilities is the difference from "gy zerging istances" (quite popular in this thread) and finishing it without deaths at all. I enjoy much more this kind of approach than just heal/just dps/just tank.

To be fair, a lot of the "situations" one would use those utility skills in GW2 are overstated. Many bosses are immune to your CC until that little buff wears off. So mechanically you have to burn off a boss' stacks of CC resistance. It's just spam-a-thon at worst, luck at best.

Further, some kits punish players for doing anything but auto attacking. Auto attack being the default and often optimal method of DPS.

There are some situational skills, and one can use them on occasion. However, I have yet to see an encounter in a expo mode that hinged on using those skills. For the majority of expo mode simple kiting & speed boosts are all that is needed for victory.

[Eorayn]

The way you line up what you think is AN’s outline is just pathetic. Of course they don’t design the game like they were children. And in fact, I feel the system AN has developed is the best MMO PvE system to date.

[ControlBlue]

I played WoW for 6 years then quit last year, and picked up GW2 this year, to play a little. I haven't returned to WoW or any other game, despite recognising GW2's flaws.

Please stop making it a WoW vs GW2, there are comparisons to be made but it isn't a popularity contest, they are different games for different people. Instead, we want to discuss what can be changed to GW2 PVE to make it more engaging, without losing that which makes it GW2, a trinity model is not required, and your preference to it notwithstanding is just going to get this thread closed.

We are not looking to come back to WoW, none of us are looking to fill your regurgitated hypothesis, and frankly, nobody is interested in your tallying up some arbitrary score for your own amusement.

I disagree, this is a popularity contest in a way. Where do you think those new GW2 players will come from?? Most are likely to ex-WoW players in the first place and most are going to look for a meaningful PvE in GW2.

Since you obviously didn't get what I was trying to say, I do NOT favor the Trinity model, on the opposite I HATE this model, I want it to disappear, that's one of the reason I was really looking forward GW2 and unfortunately it has proven incapable to really show the weakness of the Trinity, on the opposite it has given the Trinity supporters a tangible argument in favor of it.

Killing the Trinity does NOT means killing roles in PvE, it is about killing the need for only 3 specific, set in stone, roles (tank, healer, dps), even without a trinity people should still be able to create a healer, a dps, a tank, with the added liberty of mixing them up that a no-trinity model provide.
Unfortunately, all GW2 did was to make everyone a pseudo-dps (since even dps doesnt really matter in this game). That's where I see a problem.

I have seen plenty of people who have already got their GW2 refunds and came back to WoW, and they sure as all use the occassion to criticise the game because of its PvE.

[kakihara]

I played wow for 3 years and quit mid wotlk. i bought gw2 on headstart and played it until i got an lvl 80 rogue (after trying several classes) and now im back to wow and im not regretting it. besides qhat has been discussed here regarding the lack of roles in pve the biggest problem with gw2 pve is the absurd amounts of hp pools.
most bosses and even many trashmobs take at least 5-10 times too long to kill. it is perfectly fine if a fight like illidan takes 10-15 minutes because there is dialogue, there are different phases and many different abilities and overall awesomeness itself. however it is not ok if some random heroic crap boss takes even more time than that. i mainly remember that last boss on flame citadel which basically has 1 ability that u just have to walk away from, but u have to do it like 50 times becuase the boss has so much hp. i got so bored that i got killed several times at the end of the fight because i just lost attention. and where did arenanet get the idea form, that kiting is a fun boss mechanic?

[Meledelion]

There are some situational skills, and one can use them on occasion. However, I have yet to see an encounter in a expo mode that hinged on using those skills. For the majority of expo mode simple kiting & speed boosts are all that is needed for victory.

Fullheartedly agree on this. This is also the reason why "defensive" builds are holding your group back instead of helping (apart from condi removal helpers (healing spring/rain are great examples).
Illustrated perfectly by the post above mine... (the entire path of the dungeon he is refering to can be done in <8minutes without mesmer present)

Proper kiting and dodging help a ton, add to that knowing how to do certain "tricks" (arah exp p3 the first bossfight you can make the hammer guy face the same direction 100% of the time by waiting for his "load" sidestepping so you're out of the cone and back again after his atack is over, this works for all "load" mobs.)

[Beardicus]

PvE dungeon wise just feels so disconnected from the world to me. I mean, the dynamic events are so epic, and the dungeons feel painfully instanced.

[Deleted]

Probably the biggest problem is the no subscription model
So when people quit they cant leave feedback giving their reasons.
But hey maybe the Devs read the forums a lot.

[Thelxi]

Stop drowning out all the constructive criticism, this forum has stooped very low and is highly uninteresting and annoying.

[Karizee]

Probably the biggest problem is the no subscription model

I...
uh...

I think I've heard everything now O.o



LMAO -----like an Asura!

[A Challenger!]

I disagree, this is a popularity contest in a way. Where do you think those new GW2 players will come from?? Most are likely to ex-WoW players in the first place and most are going to look for a meaningful PvE in GW2.

I have seen plenty of people who have already got their GW2 refunds and came back to WoW, and they sure as all use the occassion to criticise the game because of its PvE.

Most are likely ex-WoW players? Plenty of people come back to WoW? You are using arbitrary numbers, assumptions, and opinions that you just yank from what I can only assume is a hammer space to refute everyone else.

People enjoy Guild Wars 2 to the point where it has, and still is, a phenomenal success if server sizes are any indication.

Slow your roll and just enjoy whatever you like.

[Karizee]

I disagree, this is a popularity contest in a way. Where do you think those new GW2 players will come from?? Most are likely to ex-WoW players in the first place and most are going to look for a meaningful PvE in GW2.

Where will they come from? GameStop!

http://www.gamestop.com/browse/pc/ro...?nav=138c-a-cd

Holding 1st and 4th spots in top selling MMORPG games 2.5 months after release.


Leave your delirium of the microverse of WoW behind, there are more people that play games than those that play WoW.