The Problem of GW2 PvE

[Fencers]

Not really, the design really does point toward that intent. Graveyard zerging in instances, infinite player respawn without any mob respawns or scenario resets in storyline quests

A punitive system is attached to all of those.

the overall simplicity of the combat mechanics (auto attack, go!)

The auto attack has no bearing on complexity or simplicity. The option to auto fire skills is a design decision intended to produce consistent damage in a high mobility play system.

It doesn't affect complexity of design anymore than other games with auto attack options. Where it exists usually as a means to fill the GCD.

But the design intent seems pretty clearly pointed toward a game with little depth and an "everyone wins" sort of approach.

The latter is flatly untrue. There are punitive systems and it is possible for one to "fail". At least in the manner consistent with current mainstream MMOs.

This really is just a post full of your own perception. Nothing in philosophy supports your claim of "unfailable".

[Durzlla]

Not really, the design really does point toward that intent. Graveyard zerging in instances, infinite player respawn without any mob respawns or scenario resets in storyline quests, the overall simplicity of the combat mechanics (auto attack, go!), so on and so forth.

It's not just a matter of feeling easy, a game could not have any of those things and still be easy. But the design intent seems pretty clearly pointed toward a game with little depth and an "everyone wins" sort of approach.

Actually, Arenanet HATES the graveyard zerging thing and are trying to figure out ways to make that strategy worthless (kinda like in fractals). and for the auto attack thing, you actually can do -better- without auto attack and auto targeting on... so there's that...

[Fencers]

Sure, but in the end you still "win" even with the very minor punitive system.

No less so than competing games in genre.

When the method by which many classes achieves their highest damage output is simply to turn on the "1" ability and let it fire and repeat, that's objectively simpler than systems that other games in the genre use.

Perhaps. If the combat was based on beating strict timers. But that isn't the case in GW2. Achieving highest damage output is incidental.

The game design doesn't care if you have great DPS or not for the most part. Gameplay concerns itself with movement, re-positioning, focus fire, interrupts, CC, et cetera.

That one delivered damage is more of a happy accident. This is consistent with GW1, btw. Hence the long standing inside joke of the franchise; "Damage is for suckers"

Well, looking at a game with a similar system for storyline quests (SWTOR) if you die during a mission you have to restart.

You might be right about this one w/r/t SWTOR.

I do remember the mobs not respawning in a few missions, just the boss resetting. Specifically during my IA play through which was the last one I did before quitting. I can't recall the details for all of them though as it rarely happened that I was killed in the story missions.

Honestly don't remember what happens when you do die in TOR too clearly.

You can't finish the mission until you can actually finish the mission from start to finish. Same with WoW quests that can be failed (fairly, what few there are). They'll restart completely if you fail, you don't get to "win" until you've actually defeated the encounter from start to finish.

Generally, players don't really get a win in GW2 either. Barring PS, event fails either branch differently or end for X time.

There is a fail state. It's just not always a reset.

Same deal with dungeons in most current MMOs (that I've played at least). Once you've engaged an encounter, you have to actually defeat it from start to finish as a discrete "Group vs. Encounter" chunk of content. If you fail, dead people are dead and once you've lost the encounter resets to its original state.

This is only partially true. Even then is separated by the mechanics of different games.

Plenty of encounters in other MMOs allow someone to run back if the group fights on. Other mechanics such as instant Brez also allow for rejoining a fight quickly. Bosses and mobs do reset on TPKs in GW2 though.

[ControlBlue]

Yea, you can bet they are likely to kill the whole graveyard zerging thing. Seems like they actually learned from all the whining about it.

[zito]

Yea, you can bet they are likely to kill the whole graveyard zerging thing. Seems like they actually learned from all the whining about it.

They can not remove graveyard zering with some of the encounters in its current state.

It works fine for the most part in fractals (encounters are designed a bit better) but in exploreables some encounters are just down right boring an awful. Auto attack from a boss shouldn't exist (or at least not remove such a large chunk from your health like it does now) example arah explorable lupis. Everything should be avoidable but at the same time punishing (maybe not as punishing as lupis because sometimes he doesn't even switch targets your fucked if that happens). I think blade and soul has been pulling it off pretty well if were looking at similar combat.

Some fights in fractals need some love. Jellyfish is one. The electric cages don't even do anything because the area is so big you can avoid them and he turns you into a piranha but it doesn't really do anything.

The guy from the ascolon fractals needs work. All his attacks are punishing and you can't see them coming from either particle effects or he doesn't even give a warning. Like his flame charge doesn't even give a warning. He will look at you in not in half a second and charge with a quick charge animation, you have no time to react this would be fine if the initial damage wasn't so huge but instead transfered into the burning condition. At least you would be able to react.

I'm not really impressed with most of the encounters. The gauntlets seem more interesting and the boss mechanics are eh...

[Jibjub]

They can not remove graveyard zering with some of the encounters in its current state.

It works fine for the most part in fractals (encounters are designed a bit better) but in exploreables some encounters are just down right boring an awful. Auto attack from a boss shouldn't exist (or at least not remove such a large chunk from your health like it does now) example arah explorable lupis. Everything should be avoidable but at the same time punishing (maybe not as punishing as lupis because sometimes he doesn't even switch targets your fucked if that happens). I think blade and soul has been pulling it off pretty well if were looking at similar combat.

Some fights in fractals need some love. Jellyfish is one. The electric cages don't even do anything because the area is so big you can avoid them and he turns you into a piranha but it doesn't really do anything.

The guy from the ascolon fractals needs work. All his attacks are punishing and you can't see them coming from either particle effects or he doesn't even give a warning. Like his flame charge doesn't even give a warning. He will look at you in not in half a second and charge with a quick charge animation, you have no time to react this would be fine if the initial damage wasn't so huge but instead transfered into the burning condition. At least you would be able to react.

I'm not really impressed with most of the encounters. The gauntlets seem more interesting and the boss mechanics are eh...

They did mention they are redesigning all the old dungeons. That's a big deal to me and shows that Anet learns and adjusts. The game is young.

[zito]

They did mention they are redesigning all the old dungeons. That's a big deal to me and shows that Anet learns and adjusts. The game is young.

Take everything with a grain of salt. They also said they had 5 pages of just proffesion changes for the last patch. Yea that turned out well...

[Kelesti]

Take everything with a grain of salt. They also said they had 5 pages of just proffesion changes for the last patch. Yea that turned out well...

Hey hey, now, it's not their fault they only have two people working on i-- oh wait.

[zito]

Hey hey, now, it's not their fault they only have two people working on i-- oh wait.

Hey now Kel, they have 2 people propose the changes, pass it around the office then 2 people fix it.

That's definitively more then 2 people working on it right?

[Durzlla]

Take everything with a grain of salt. They also said they had 5 pages of just proffesion changes for the last patch. Yea that turned out well...

Ah but zito, maybe on the program they had everything typed up on it was infact 5 pages!!

EDIT: So yeah, copied and pasted all the prof updates into microsoft word, 9 fucking pages.... so yeah, fuck you zito and kel

PS: That's single spaced

[Fencers]

I just did the same for the profession changes-- 5 pages, single spaced.

[zito]

I wasn't looking at the number of pages specifically

[Durzlla]

I just did the same for the profession changes-- 5 pages, single spaced.

Huh, i used pages (macs version of microsoft word) and it turns out our pages are shorter then microsofts word xD

[Kelesti]

Take all of the patch notes. All of them. Condense all of the applicable lines into a single instance of "Many tooltips have been updated and corrected".

How many pages of actual changes are left when you do that?

[Fencers]

How many pages of actual changes are left when you do that?

8 pages with all flavor text, double space headers and any fix/adjustment that is related to the UI [with no explicit change] removed. Single space, 10.5 point font, Microsoft sans serif.

So that is exactly 5 pages of profession changes and 3 for general game additions/fixes.

[ControlBlue]

So now, after an interesting discussion with a french streamer (Mr. Deriv, you should check his stream, he plays GW2 and his pretty awesome ) I can say the problems of the PvE in GW2 can be summed up as such:

- The impossibility to play iconic RPG tropes such as the defender or the cleric, believe it or not but the impossibility to tank or the nonexistence of viable heals outside of the Guardian class has pushed many players out of the game.

This is further reinforced by the lack of identity of most skills, and the lack of roles in PvE.

Back to bed now!

[Durzlla]

So now, after an interesting discussion with a french streamer (Mr. Deriv, you should check his stream, he plays GW2 and his pretty awesome ) I can say the problems of the PvE in GW2 can be summed up as such:

- The impossibility to play iconic RPG tropes such as the defender or the cleric, believe it or not but the impossibility to tank or the nonexistence of viable heals outside of the Guardian class has pushed many players out of the game.

This is further reinforced by the lack of identity of most skills, and the lack of roles in PvE.

Back to bed now!

False!! I play my ranger as a Cleric, not all Clerics are healbots, infact most original clerics only did minor healing inbetween fights. I play my "Cleric" of a Ranger exactly how i play a Druid/Shaman in DnD i give the group some minor support with my heals and spirits, but for the most part i'm dealing death to the enemies.... if only i could throw acorns at people that explode like a grenade...

[ControlBlue]

In the pure DnD/RPG tradition/culture,

yes Clerics are healbots .

[Jibjub]

So now, after an interesting discussion with a french streamer (Mr. Deriv, you should check his stream, he plays GW2 and his pretty awesome ) I can say the problems of the PvE in GW2 can be summed up as such:

- The impossibility to play iconic RPG tropes such as the defender or the cleric, believe it or not but the impossibility to tank or the nonexistence of viable heals outside of the Guardian class has pushed many players out of the game.

This is further reinforced by the lack of identity of most skills, and the lack of roles in PvE.

Back to bed now!

I agree - even though I didn't think I would. The removal of the trinity had me really excited, and I have mentioned in some other threads that I commend them for trying, but it just doesn't work. The lacking "RPG-ness" of GW2 is it's biggest "problem" for me and I think many other players. I have no connection with my character.

[Durzlla]

I agree - even though I didn't think I would. The removal of the trinity had me really excited, and I have mentioned in some other threads that I commend them for trying, but it just doesn't work. The lacking "RPG-ness" of GW2 is it's biggest "problem" for me and I think many other players. I have no connection with my character.

I will say that i agree with the lack of character connection, idk why but i just don't feel my sylvari as much as i did my ranger in GW1 or other characters in RPGs... than again, my human mesmer i -do- have connections with, so idk how that works...