The Problem of GW2 PvE

[ControlBlue]

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/c..._holy_trinity/

An interesting discussion happening on Reddit, it shows the viewpoints of a lot of players on the current PvE.

Notice how most agreed on the Dps with a bit of utility thing (except for guardians )

[Meledelion]

I think the op in that subreddit has some major issues seeing how to avoid certain mechanics due to him missing out on obvious ways to avoid them by relying on his class (guardian) skills instead of looking at his surroundings.

The example he uses (Fire shaman) is a good example of my point. 80% of the dangerous skills in that fight are easily "avoidable" projectiles. If you're formiliar with gw1 and know how to avoid projectiles there, it works like a charm vs that boss and is the best way to avoid agony.

From his post it looks like he relies on his reflect walls to dodge the oneshot arrow (agony inducing) instead of simply strafing.

Also his note on "one blindspamming guard is needed" is quite flawed, any ele can blind just as well as a guardian +kd +heal+remove conditions on that fight making them far more valuable (if they want they can trade some of those in to make the team immune to projectiles in a similar way)

Ofc no class is as good at projectile blocking as a guardian but a balanced teamsetup (mes/ele/thief/...) can do similar things.

I don't really see where you're coming from with DPS with a bit of utility, can you expand a bit?

edit:
what i meant to say was something like: let's take two random ppl one of them has the best equipment possible and the other one has the worst equipment possible.
At first person A will have a significant lead since he can rely on his equipment to carry him. Person B however will have to be inventive and play better to advance. This means that person A has a higher ceiling to begin with but will struggle very hard there while person B will have a low ceiling to begin with but once he reached and conquered it his next ceiling will be very very high in comparison to person A.

(person A being guardian heavy groups in this example)

[Durzlla]

You're only DPS with a bit of utility BECAUSE YOU BUILD THAT WAY, i have 2 characters that can hardly kill anything but they are very much capable of causing the rest of the group to take people out and not die nearly as often as they would normally which more than makes up for my lack of damage (25 stacks of might on some glass cannons + throwing prot and stability and regen on them? Yup, that'll make up for my guardian not doing jack shit in the damage compartment).

As i was saying in my guild, you can spec fully into any of the 3 roles (control, damage, support), however just about everyone (just like in other mmos) builds for DPS and picks up some utility on the side. Get people like me (who builds mostly for support and survivability with some offense on the side) and my guild leader who is for all intents and purposes a tank in a group and things go soooo much smoother and efficiently than having 5 glass cannon dps with a small amount of utility.

[Meledelion]

You're going from the failed premise that a utility based player has to use defensive gear to provide utility. What makes it so that if you change your tough/vit/power gear for tough/prec/power gear you can't provide those stacks of might, prot, stability and regen on them?

Take the Sonic Boon build (I'm not that much of a fan but it's a good example) that build focuses around doing dmg and then also adding support through shouts and vulnerability with the GS. Wether that build runs with tough/prec/power or tough/vit/power or for all I care naked doesn't make them worse support all of a sudden.

[Durzlla]

You're going from the failed premise that a utility based player has to use defensive gear to provide utility. What makes it so that if you change your tough/vit/power gear for tough/prec/power gear you can't provide those stacks of might, prot, stability and regen on them?

Take the Sonic Boon build (I'm not that much of a fan but it's a good example) that build focuses around doing dmg and then also adding support through shouts and vulnerability with the GS. Wether that build runs with tough/prec/power or tough/vit/power or for all I care naked doesn't make them worse support all of a sudden.

Sure it does, their boons last half as long as mine, boons don't cascade off of them everytime they heal, they can't pump out 2k heals on their 2, or a passive 230 health per second to everyone around them, they can't burst heal everyone near them for 4k with their 4 on staff etc.

The gear I run my guardian in is Toughness/healing power/ boon duration, would I drop the toughness for an offensive stat? Sure, I don't have the option to though. You NEED to build for defense to have great support, I didn't say they -can't- support, it just won't be nearly as strong.

[Kelesti]

I would ask why the hell you're even stacking +healing in the first place, but I know the only two answers to that being

• You're Durz and you don't give a fuck what's been proven/disproven because fuck science and numbers and actual logic you do it anyways and yell at anyone who questions you (where have we seen these kinds of people before?)
• and more importantly I've recently discovered Giver's is the only gear with Boon Duration (I didn't even think Boon Duration existed as a gearstat at all) so if I was to do a boon duration build, I myself would be stuck not with the Toughness but with the +healing as well.

Either way, Eww.

[Meledelion]

Runes of water and monk give +boon aswell.

[Kelesti]

Runes of water and monk give +boon aswell.

Well yes, but I meant from an actual gearset standpoint, I was surprised to even find one set with boon duration on it, thinking only runes or traits. Given what it's paired with, I couldn't really see it being worth it.

[Meledelion]

Ah you mean ppl already built around the new gearset from wintersday, the one that's broken and doesn't help at all since it has the same issue most traits had untill recently?

---------- Post added 2013-01-02 at 10:18 PM ----------

The gear I run my guardian in is Toughness/healing power/ boon duration, would I drop the toughness for an offensive stat? Sure, I don't have the option to though. You NEED to build for defense to have great support, I didn't say they -can't- support, it just won't be nearly as strong.

The bolded part is wrong on so many levels it's not even funny. http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/...ut-greatsword/ uses Knight's armor (I'm running berserker and a similar build but tweaked) you can maintain 25stacks of might and close to constant fury for your easily.

[Durzlla]

Ah you mean ppl already built around the new gearset from wintersday, the one that's broken and doesn't help at all since it has the same issue most traits had untill recently?

---------- Post added 2013-01-02 at 10:18 PM ----------



The bolded part is wrong on so many levels it's not even funny. http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/...ut-greatsword/ uses Knight's armor (I'm running berserker and a similar build but tweaked) you can maintain 25stacks of might and close to constant fury for your easily.

Once again, that build doesn't support nearly as well as others can, does it provide support? Yes, it does, i've already agreed to that, but not to the same extent. And either way, that build you linked only provides OFFENSIVE support, not defensive or an even mix at all. It has some healing sure, but for all intents and purposes that build is designed to kill things and the support is more of a tack on.

@Kel, well i play a ranger mostly and i get 100% of my healing power backing up my heal, i can maintain 100% regen uptime, i have passive regen on both me and my pet from traits, and i gain some power (only like 130) from my healing power, it's WELL worth it, it's even better on guardian where they have multiple skills that have healing power tacked on there as well.

From what i've seen and tested it's absolutely worth it, time and time again regen/prot have been the difference between life and certain death, not to mention it super boosts your rezzing abilities making you able to pick people up a lot faster than other people can.

[Meledelion]

Who cares if it only provides offensive support, support is support... If you want defensive support there are other classes who give that.
Even mixes are a frigin waste. The build is designed for support with high dmg, it supports by buffing dmg.

The problem with healing power is that the drop off for how valuable it is is very early on. Also prot isn't effected by healing power...
I don't care about picking ppl up faster, ppl shouldn't die simple.

[Durzlla]

Who cares if it only provides offensive support, support is support... If you want defensive support there are other classes who give that.
Even mixes are a frigin waste. The build is designed for support with high dmg, it supports by buffing dmg.

The problem with healing power is that the drop off for how valuable it is is very early on. Also prot isn't effected by healing power...
I don't care about picking ppl up faster, ppl shouldn't die simple.

Well there are mechanics that insta gib you without any way to dodge or avoid it (anet said they will be implementing those), the little asura bastard at the end of CoE story has one (don't know of any other ones) he will just raise a pistol up and go "Bang" and you're down, can't be body blocked, pierces reflects, evades, and blind. So being able to pick people up quickly can be very important.

And i don't see what's wrong with having a mix of offensive and defensive support, i could bring say a banner, or "Fear Me!" for some defensive support (Stuff that will give your allies breathing room).

PS: Just realized that the minors in tactics were pretty "defensive", but not really that great because it'd probably be better to keep them from getting downed to begin with but w/e.

[Meledelion]

And i don't see what's wrong with having a mix of offensive and defensive support, i could bring say a banner, or "Fear Me!" for some defensive support (Stuff that will give your allies breathing room).

I'll toss around an example i've been using a lot.
Imagine two teams 1 team has ppl purely focused on one thing (sort of like the team u mentioned earlier) offense, support,def support, conditions, reflects and one pure dps ranger.

On the other hand you have team with the same classes but all are built for some dmg some defensive support and some offensive support.
What team do u think does best?

Another example, let's say there are 3ways of living and all teams are 3man teams. The traits u can pick are smart, good looking and funny.
Again 2teams, one has one of each and another has everyone who is 1/3 of each what team will get better results?

Same idea but with 10 traits: smart, atletic, kind, helpful, good looking, funny, well spoken, outgoing, sociable, entertaining.
Two groups, which do you automatically think is better?

Now let's get back to gw2, let's say you mix'n mash. The problem is that when mixing (and everyone doing this) the chance of you overwriting ppl in your team doing the same thing is quite big, whilst if only you bring might and only your friend brings blind you'll have a more consistent uptime on blind and might.

CoE end boss is still avoidable afaik, you just have to stay at range so u can see it coming. I haven't done it recently but wiki supports my idea.

Phase 2: Kudu - Kudu is a glass cannon that relies on teleportation and powerful attacks. This should be the shortest phase of the final battle.

Kudu has two attacks that can instantly down a player: a direct attack and arcing ranged attacks. The ranged attacks can be evaded fairly easily; however, the direct attack can instantly down a players at short range with little or no warning.

That part is also a good showcase of why more dmg=more surv. The faster you burn through that phase the less often he'll be able to "one-shot".


edit: I know it's basically the same example it's just that I wanted to point out that size isn't a determining factor.

[Durzlla]

I'll toss around an example i've been using a lot.
Imagine two teams 1 team has ppl purely focused on one thing (sort of like the team u mentioned earlier) offense, support,def support, conditions, reflects and one pure dps ranger.

On the other hand you have team with the same classes but all are built for some dmg some defensive support and some offensive support.
What team do u think does best?

Another example, let's say there are 3ways of living and all teams are 3man teams. The traits u can pick are smart, good looking and funny.
Again 2teams, one has one of each and another has everyone who is 1/3 of each what team will get better results?

Same idea but with 10 traits: smart, atletic, kind, helpful, good looking, funny, well spoken, outgoing, sociable, entertaining.
Two groups, which do you automatically think is better?

Now let's get back to gw2, let's say you mix'n mash. The problem is that when mixing (and everyone doing this) the chance of you overwriting ppl in your team doing the same thing is quite big, whilst if only you bring might and only your friend brings blind you'll have a more consistent uptime on blind and might.

CoE end boss is still avoidable afaik, you just have to stay at range so u can see it coming. I haven't done it recently but wiki supports my idea.

That part is also a good showcase of why more dmg=more surv. The faster you burn through that phase the less often he'll be able to "one-shot".


edit: I know it's basically the same example it's just that I wanted to point out that size isn't a determining factor.

Yeah, but you're forgetting one important thing about GW2, unless you're building around a condition that stacks in duration (all but bleeding) or a boon that stacks in duration (all but might) then you don't have to worry on stepping on each others toes, ever, hell even if you go for the duration stacking ones you wont be because chances are that build they run wont be providing ONLY that, and thus wont have 100% uptime. That being said i prefer to mix it up a bit, i bring control via cripples, knock backs, tankyness (for holding a mobs attention) and then i bring my support via boons (mostly regen, fury, and swiftness but prot is thrown in there) and then i have some damage because, fuck everyone has damage.

As for the CoE fight i think that just depends on your flavor, i'm one of those players that goes with the "I'm not going to lose" playstyle (surprised i never played pally in wow lol) so i just go to outlast you, and as such would rather just be able to pick everyone up faster rather than try to burst through it and him just killing all of us. And i'm mostly in melee range, so i can't see it coming, nothing i can do about that, not about to go sheath my sword and warhorn so i can stand at 1500 range and spam 1 when i don't need to due to being able to pick myself up as well as my teammates being able to pick me up fairly easily.

[Meledelion]

You actually do have to worry about getting into other ppl's comfort zones. I don't mean just by conditions you can also both pop for instance shake it off and save yourselves.

You shouldn't ignore vulnerability and confusion (can't blame you for confusion though ) and "overstacking" any of this greatly cripples your team

I agree it isn't that big of a deal with most conditions/boons but other skills come into play aswell. The biggest "thing" I was thinking about was stacking aegis since that's the most obvious waste.

[Durzlla]

You actually do have to worry about getting into other ppl's comfort zones. I don't mean just by conditions you can also both pop for instance shake it off and save yourselves.

You shouldn't ignore vulnerability and confusion (can't blame you for confusion though ) and "overstacking" any of this greatly cripples your team

I agree it isn't that big of a deal with most conditions/boons but other skills come into play aswell. The biggest "thing" I was thinking about was stacking aegis since that's the most obvious waste.

Completely blanked on vuln and I purposely didn't mention confusion because very rarely will blowing your confusion moves be a waste, as for aegis it's only really provided by guardians (with very few exceptions) so if there is wasting of that it's entirerly out of my control due to me not being a huge fan of playing guardians (they're too "pure" of a class, IE if you build for support and control that is literally the end of the list in "Things I can do" where other profs aren't so restricted.)