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  1. #1201
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormtrooperz View Post
    And when was that, exactly?

    Please, enlighten me as to this glorious golden age, because i can guarantee you I'll find problems that people had with that expansion too.
    Vanilla wow up to when TOC got released they showed they cared more about there player base then they do now.

    Ever since Activi got there hands in the pot its been a lot different if you haven't notice......"Personally Opinion here keep in mind" but mainly Vanilla and BC they showed they cared more about there players then they do now.
    Last edited by Jtbrig7390; 2012-11-02 at 09:37 PM.
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  2. #1202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormtrooperz View Post
    Minor changes for aid?

    Sure.

    Another entire outlet that's EASIER for casual players to be on par with hardcore raider gear?

    Then we run into the problem of hardcore raiders doing the easy stuff for fastest progression. There would be literally no point in doing the harder stuff if the same gear can be attained at the easier level. Then they sit there and complain they have nothing to do.

    So, we have two options. Cater to the casuals who would leave at the drop of a hat if one thing doesn't go their way, or cater to the people who actually put time and effort into your product that you made, and are less likely to scrutinize and are dedicated to your baby? Sure that sounds bias, but how else am I to describe the ideas behind your statements.
    Usually at this point I would honestly ask you if you thought dailies were hard. The simple fact is that like any tedious job they aren't hard they are simply just tedious. They feel like work because they are boring and time consuming and never as rewarding as you'd like them to be but not actually hard. The changes I've been asking for don't actually make anything all that much "easier" because well look at that you still only have 1000 valor a week anyway. Boss drops will still be rewarding, more rewarding than valor because not only are they higher item level than what you get for the most part but also because time to reward ratio is still much better in raids. Dailies will still be rewarding because they offer so much else besides valor gear.

    At no point in the game was I ever on par with hardcore raider gear. Even when gear was "easy" as it's ever been which I'm going to assume you think was the end of cata was that ever the case. I NEVER had 403 gear. I had all the valor pieces but not a single piece of 403. NEVER was on par woth heroic raider gear. You could still lord the fuck over me with your heroic raiding gear and nobody gave a shit.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #1203
    Quote Originally Posted by DanTheMan View Post
    This is not true either. Lets say I want to do the new LFR coming out I would need 470 ilvl but all I have is heroic gear because I can't get anything else because I have no rep and have had bad luck in Mosh Vaults LFR therefore I cannot progress!!
    Buy crafted gear? Problem solved you can keep on progressing.
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  4. #1204
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    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    I don't massively care, its just not necessary to do either. The fraction of the market for whom the best gear for them is ONLY available from VP are so small, and partake in so fwe activities in game, thier opinions on the game design shouldn't count. Don't get me wrong lots of people seem to THINK they ahve to do these dailies, they're just misguided. Basically. And they're gonna regret busting their balls over it when all the VP gear is irrelevant and they only want to spend VP upgrading their raid gear.
    No not really. It's not massively small as you say it's pretty much everyone who likes to get rewards outside of the raid. That's alot of people. It isn't about the gear itself, you keep getting fixated on that for no reason. It's about the sense of reward you get from the game being far less than it has at any point in the games history save vanilla.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  5. #1205
    Quote Originally Posted by Mesovr View Post
    Buy crafted gear? Problem solved you can keep on progressing.
    Wrong because unless you buy crafted gear u can't use then u will only be around 465 after it "if just using heroic gear and crafted" 2-3 peace's will not give u 10 ilvl to get into the new LFR.

    Also players should have more then 1 way to get gear daily's should not be one of those ways.


    Once again got to love not being able to spend my valor points because the need for rep.
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  6. #1206
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    That sounds familiar...

    Oh, it sounds like WoW, TBC, and Wrath of the Lich King raiding model. Unless we really are going to start supporting that Cataclysm really was a better expansion design.
    Bravo, someone gets it.

  7. #1207
    People complained that in CATA, everything was just handed to people and it was easy mode. People complained that world PvP was dead and that nobody had any reason to leave ORG/SW. The world was so disjointed that players didn't feel immersed in the zones, stories, or content.

    Blizzard makes changes to address the complaints.

    People complain that they have to actual work towards building reputation and quest instead. Why can't I fly...this sucks....I don't want to be forced to WPvP or "enjoy" the content. Why can't I just grind rep through dungeon queue's with a tabard? I don't want to be forced to leave my capitals.

    What have we learned? WoW players are NEVER satisfied and have no idea what they want, aside from wanting something to bitch about.

  8. #1208
    Quote Originally Posted by Crakkerz View Post
    People complained that in CATA, everything was just handed to people and it was easy mode. People complained that world PvP was dead and that nobody had any reason to leave ORG/SW. The world was so disjointed that players didn't feel immersed in the zones, stories, or content.

    Blizzard makes changes to address the complaints.

    People complain that they have to actual work towards building reputation and quest instead. Why can't I fly...this sucks....I don't want to be forced to WPvP or "enjoy" the content. Why can't I just grind rep through dungeon queue's with a tabard? I don't want to be forced to leave my capitals.

    What have we learned? WoW players are NEVER satisfied and have no idea what they want, aside from wanting something to bitch about.
    Please show me the people who bitched about things being to easy in cata...because last checked the only ones who may have done that was the wanna be elitist players and in cata blizzard lissened to them and lost 3 million subs so why keep on lissing to them.


    Edit: People bitching on MMOchamp about something being to easy is not all of the wow playerbase. But people lighting up the forums on the official WOW site about daily's being a pain in the ass and not being able to spend valor make up a lot more of the player base.
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  9. #1209
    Quote Originally Posted by Crakkerz View Post
    People complained that in CATA, everything was just handed to people and it was easy mode. People complained that world PvP was dead and that nobody had any reason to leave ORG/SW. The world was so disjointed that players didn't feel immersed in the zones, stories, or content.

    Blizzard makes changes to address the complaints.

    People complain that they have to actual work towards building reputation and quest instead. Why can't I fly...this sucks....I don't want to be forced to WPvP or "enjoy" the content. Why can't I just grind rep through dungeon queue's with a tabard? I don't want to be forced to leave my capitals.

    What have we learned? WoW players are NEVER satisfied and have no idea what they want, aside from wanting something to bitch about.
    I've also seen complaints about why they should even have to level any alts after seeing the content once. The particular complaint cited they had 20 alts and didn't want to level all of them.

    It's true, the player base will always complain. If one group likes it, another group won't. I think it will blow over with 5.1 somewhat. The anti-daily folks will be able to do more with their gear and valor without doing dailies with that patch.

  10. #1210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    That sounds familiar...

    Oh, it sounds like WoW, TBC, and Wrath of the Lich King raiding model.
    Not really. Lots of gear outside the raid in the wrath model. Especially towards the end. It's like none of you have ever played these expansions before. This system is more like the vanilla model. You are much closer to getting every piece of gear from the raid. That's it. Cataclysm was possible the extreme of the tbc and wotlk models of getting gear through a point/badge system outside of the raid. At this point I would welcome it over mists. Cataclysm had alot of shit wrong with it, the reward system wasn't one of the problems

    As for rep I didn't touch a single daily in cataclysm and still got rep. I'd love to be able to not touch a single daily and get rep in Mists. Not so much. And actually the way to grind rep in BC was to run dungeons. If you wanted ogrila and shatari you did dailies but I didn't touch those, they didn't have any gear or progression upgrades on them. In fact double dipping has been a part of this game longer than dailies. Did any of you actually play bc? BC didn't even have rep tabards....
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2012-11-02 at 09:48 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #1211
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    Not really. Lots of gear outside the raid in the wrath model. Especially towards the end. It's like none of you have ever played these expansions before. This system is more like the vanilla model. You are much closer to getting every piece of gear from the raid. That's it. Cataclysm was possible the extreme of the tbc and wotlk models of getting gear through a point/badge system outside of the raid. At this point I would welcome it over mists. Cataclysm had alot of shit wrong with it, the reward system wasn't one of the problem.

    As for rep I didn't touch a single daily in cataclysm and still got rep. I'd love to be able to not touch a single daily and get rep in Mists. Not so much. And actually the way to grind rep in BC was to run dungeons. If you wanted ogrila and shatari you did dailies but I didn't touch those, they didn't have any gear or progression upgrades on them. In fact double dipping has been a part of this game longer than dailies. Did any of you actually play bc? BC didn't even have rep tabards....
    Lots who played BC don't remember it.....get it lol

    Also i agree with you 100%
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  12. #1212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crakkerz View Post
    People complained that in CATA, everything was just handed to people and it was easy mode. People complained that world PvP was dead and that nobody had any reason to leave ORG/SW. The world was so disjointed that players didn't feel immersed in the zones, stories, or content.

    Blizzard makes changes to address the complaints.

    People complain that they have to actual work towards building reputation and quest instead. Why can't I fly...this sucks....I don't want to be forced to WPvP or "enjoy" the content. Why can't I just grind rep through dungeon queue's with a tabard? I don't want to be forced to leave my capitals.

    What have we learned? WoW players are NEVER satisfied and have no idea what they want, aside from wanting something to bitch about.
    Dailies don't actually make things harder to get. Their just a contrivance to get people out of Org. World PVP is still dead because dailies don't actually promote that system. Most people just want to get the whole thing over with and not deal with fucking allies or horde so they don't fuck with allies or horde.

    Dailies do not address these problems in the slightest. In fact many of the changes they made don't address these problems at all. I'm still not even remotely immersed. Immersion is dead in this game and has been for awhile primarily because you can see so much of whats going on behind the game that you don't get lost in it like you used to. Need to figure out a spec? Elitist jerks? need to see where the mobs you need are? built in quest finder need any information about the game at all? wowhead. No discovery and no immersion there. It's not skyrim and it's not a sandbox game.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-02 at 09:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    I've also seen complaints about why they should even have to level any alts after seeing the content once. The particular complaint cited they had 20 alts and didn't want to level all of them.

    It's true, the player base will always complain. If one group likes it, another group won't. I think it will blow over with 5.1 somewhat. The anti-daily folks will be able to do more with their gear and valor without doing dailies with that patch.
    I don't recall anyone complaining that the game had a stunning lack of dailies and yet here we are...
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #1213
    My personal opinion on the way it should have been done:

    1. Introduce many new reputations that can be advanced through dailies.

    2. Introduce an armor vendor who you have to earn a certain reputation with. ((I know the intent was to limit the amount of 'free gear' from just farming heroics, but what blizz doesn't get is that most people LOVE to farm heroics.)) Grinding ANY heroic dungeon will grant reputaion with this armor vendor and he/she will have items/gear at all levels. ((Obv. exalted would have best around 460-465 illv))

    3. Give each reputation vendor epic gear ((470+)) to entice people to do the dailies. This would allow most people to just farm heroics and be able to enter LFR while the more dedicated players could max all reps and have an edge going into normal/heroic raids.

    I know the argument around is you are not forced to grind dailies to be able to play, but until you do you are wasting JP/VP. Grinding faction rep has always been a fun thing ((starting to decline in WotLK)) that would takes weeks/MONTHS to complete. I have yet to Get exalted with Hydraxian Waterlords being as casual a player as I have been since I started at BC launch date. Now reputations are almost meaningless it seems.

    Being 'exalted' with a MOP rep is like having an 'epic' weapon... who gives a shit?
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  14. #1214
    You're right, towards the end of Wrath. I think Blizzard introduced a little too much and it got out of control. They're closing Pandora's Box now and people are fighting that. When Wrath launched you were still gated by the daily heroic lockout. MoP is more like the vanilla model and that's intentional, but here's the prime difference: LFR.

    You'll get your gear primarily from raiding, but LFR makes raiding extremely accessible. We'll see if new heroics are introduced alongside raid patches, but with LFR meant to be its own progression path for the masses who can't do normal raiding (due to schedule, lack of interest, etc) while raiding is the main path for raiders. The leg up will be upgrading gear with valor points. I honestly think Blizz should have just pulled that trigger at launch instead of waiting for 5.1 to put it in.

    Yes, you could run dungeons for rep just to get into heroics. Then you'd run heroics to get gear. And by the time most folks I knew were in Karazhan they still hadn't capped off their rep in heroics. And those factions rewarded you with epics that were lower ilvl than Karazhan. Ogri'la and Skyguard gave a couple epics...also lower than Karazhan.

    But we didn't have LFR then either.

    Had Blizzard implemented LFR going into Wrath, the scope would have been ENTIRELY different. I don't think it's necessary to remove valor gear from rep vendors; it gives non-raiders something they can do working through dailies to progress. With 5.1 we'll be focusing on dungeons/heroics as our progression paths, which is probably how it would have remained through previous expansions had LFR been an option.

    But really, with 5.1 implementing the upgrade, and people who hate dailies no longer needing to do dailies for gear, won't that solve a lot of the disagreement?

  15. #1215
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    No not really. It's not massively small as you say it's pretty much everyone who likes to get rewards outside of the raid. That's alot of people. It isn't about the gear itself, you keep getting fixated on that for no reason. It's about the sense of reward you get from the game being far less than it has at any point in the games history save vanilla.
    Yes but the people who want gear outside of raids who

    a) Don't raid
    b) Don't PvP and
    c) Don't enjoy dailies

    ...is pretty small. Because most of the people I know who fitted all 3 of those things, also didn't give a fuck about having pimp gear. So no, I'd say the majoirty of people complaining are being dumb because theres no NEED to do any dailies whatsoever. And I get fixated on the gear only becuase its the reason people give for HAVING to do these dailies...
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Posting here is primarily a way to strengthen your own viewpoint against common counter-arguments.

  16. #1216
    I hate dailies. I am required to do them to get some mediocre gear so I can feel good about myself. I will then complain about being required to do dailies.

    After having to suffer through the month of required dailies, I will then sit in a major faction city of my choice and complain that I have nothing to do.

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    Last edited by Marema; 2012-11-02 at 10:03 PM.

  17. #1217
    Quote Originally Posted by dangelo37 View Post

    I know the argument around is you are not forced to grind dailies to be able to play, but until you do you are wasting JP/VP.
    JP aren't useful for anything at the moment, that much I'll grant you, is broken. Give us a JP trade goods vendor please (and an honor one too please).

    VP aren't useful for anything at the moment, except to the non raider to get the best gear they can attain. Making getting the best gear you can attain take 3-4 weeks is not a BAD model at all, yes its stretched things out a bit, but seeing as they don't actually need that gear for anything other than having it (they don't raid) theres plenty else to do in the game still (which presumably they *are* interested in, as they are still playing).

    Roll on 5.1

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-02 at 10:05 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by dangelo37 View Post
    My personal opinion on the way it should have been done:

    1. Introduce many new reputations that can be advanced through dailies.

    2. Introduce an armor vendor who you have to earn a certain reputation with. ((I know the intent was to limit the amount of 'free gear' from just farming heroics, but what blizz doesn't get is that most people LOVE to farm heroics.)) Grinding ANY heroic dungeon will grant reputaion with this armor vendor and he/she will have items/gear at all levels. ((Obv. exalted would have best around 460-465 illv))

    3. Give each reputation vendor epic gear ((470+)) to entice people to do the dailies. This would allow most people to just farm heroics and be able to enter LFR while the more dedicated players could max all reps and have an edge going into normal/heroic raids.

    I know the argument around is you are not forced to grind dailies to be able to play, but until you do you are wasting JP/VP. Grinding faction rep has always been a fun thing ((starting to decline in WotLK)) that would takes weeks/MONTHS to complete. I have yet to Get exalted with Hydraxian Waterlords being as casual a player as I have been since I started at BC launch date. Now reputations are almost meaningless it seems.

    Being 'exalted' with a MOP rep is like having an 'epic' weapon... who gives a shit?
    Apart from the armour vendor giving out 463 lvl gear which you can only access by grinding heroics for rep, (which in itself just seems obsolete, you're grinding heroics already because you love it, just use the drops from that surely) is that not EXACTLY the model they've got now...
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Posting here is primarily a way to strengthen your own viewpoint against common counter-arguments.

  18. #1218
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    JP aren't useful for anything at the moment, that much I'll grant you, is broken. Give us a JP trade goods vendor please (and an honor one too please).

    VP aren't useful for anything at the moment, except to the non raider to get the best gear they can attain. Making getting the best gear you can attain take 3-4 weeks is not a BAD model at all, yes its stretched things out a bit, but seeing as they don't actually need that gear for anything other than having it (they don't raid) theres plenty else to do in the game still (which presumably they *are* interested in, as they are still playing).

    Roll on 5.1
    its going to take longer then 3-4weeks just cause there is a 1k weekly valor cap so we don't need the rep tited to the gear as well making it longer.
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  19. #1219
    Quote Originally Posted by morfraen View Post
    Daily's are optional content. People need to stop complaining about being 'required' to do them all every day :P
    Everything is optional content.

    There is no such thing as optional content...

    PVP is optional, PVE is optional, your opinion is not optimal.

    Dailies are a major way of gearing up as fast as possible, saying they are optional is just stupid.
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  20. #1220
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    No not really. It's not massively small as you say it's pretty much everyone who likes to get rewards outside of the raid. That's alot of people. It isn't about the gear itself, you keep getting fixated on that for no reason. It's about the sense of reward you get from the game being far less than it has at any point in the games history save vanilla.
    Indeed. Raids were never rewarding per se. It were Badges/Emblems which were making people feel some kind of reward. And now they came and took it away from raiders. I don't know for others, but by doing this they completely broke any feeling of reward. It was bad enough in TBC, monthes running Hyjal without single drop till very WotLK, tanking with Naxx weapon and shield in ToGC25 content, and so on. Friend had to use pvp healing shield for DS hc, because Atramedes, Beth'tilac and Warmaster never dropped spirit shields.

    Why bother to get any raid reward in game then? Can just kill bosses once for satisfaction or even watch youtube videos. Instead of fixing lottery system in raids, they just added many other skinner boxes, and now everyone with eyes can see game for all it's glory - skinner boxes and nothing else just for the sake of artificially extending content.

    And yeah, as someone before noted, don't hate people, hate the system :P

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