Is monk dps really this bad?

[Deleted]

Unfortunately, without changes, we're not going to get any better this tier as our set bonuses are so bad we're going to start slipping when other classes get theirs.

Also as fight get shorter we will drop down the dps tables. We have no burst, ESP on pull when lust is usually used, so other classes burst phases take up a greater proportion of the fight, and we have ess time to make it up

---------- Post added 2012-11-04 at 11:40 AM ----------

Realistic DPS Chart check this out on theorycrafted dps where the different specs are. But as blizzard says Monk DPS has a really high learning curve compared to all the other classes.

It really does not. Ww is a really really easy spec, either bliz was taking the piss or talking out of their arses

[Deleted]

The basics are fairly easy, just fast paced. With us not having any big cooldowns that make up a lot of our DPS though, I think doing the small things make a bigger difference. Ie, lining up TEB with trinket procs, making sure RSK is never delayed etc. a shaman popping all CDs, pots etc at the start will do such a ridiculous amount of damage that small mistakes or inefficiencies in normal rotation will be masked by it. We don't have that, so things we could improve are amplified. That's where top players will really set themselves apart from those going through the
Motions, and that fine tuning is a large curve IMO.

[Deleted]

I'm taking sims with a pinch of salt right now.

They don't remotely reflect what i see in my raids at all. The only thing that really sets us back is a lack of a cleave.

It really does not. Ww is a really really easy spec, either bliz was taking the piss or talking out of their arses

You're right, it doesn't. But if you want to hit the top ranks, you can't just play the obvious way. Not to take anything from Mihir's guide, but just playing according to that prio won't get you the best ranks. We're in sort of a similar situation to Boomkins here, where if you don't plan your Tigereye Brew, Xuen, and Energizing Brew around particular parts of a fight, you'll not get the most out of your monk.
That's the only bit which makes it "difficult". You lose a lot of potential dps from poor planning.

[mirodin]

You're right, it doesn't. But if you want to hit the top ranks, you can't just play the obvious way. Not to take anything from Mihir's guide, but just playing according to that prio won't get you the best ranks. We're in sort of a similar situation to Boomkins here, where if you don't plan your Tigereye Brew, Xuen, and Energizing Brew around particular parts of a fight, you'll not get the most out of your monk.
That's the only bit which makes it "difficult". You lose a lot of potential dps from poor planning.

What you said is true, but that isn't down to the monk rotation, that's more of a know your encounter and your raid strat. There are ways of improving your dps, like using SFB when you are out of range or CJL.

As far as early burst the best you can do is maintain 10 stacks of TEB and use it pre pull, just like a prepot. Use that raid boss turnip to get stacks up if you are low or have none.

[Deleted]

As far as early burst the best you can do is maintain 10 stacks of TEB and use it pre pull, just like a prepot. Use that raid boss turnip to get stacks up if you are low or have none.

You can't use it inside a raid.

[TheWindWalker]

After reading through this thread, I decided to give my DPS off-spec a shot and it's going alright but I noticed something. The tooltip for the Rising Sun Kick debuff actually says "15% more damage" despite the ability and the guide here saying it's only 10%. Is this just a textual bug or could it be a "hidden buff" that isn't being accounted for in sims?

[morbidone]

As a few others before me have stated, the Monk class IS a new class and thus people would have less time to practice it compared to say, a Retribution Paladin.

Other than that I've noticed quite a few people stating that the Monk class takes more skill when it comes to Brewmaster. Perhaps this also applies to Windwalker?

Idk where you guys are getting this crap.

Its not that hard to figure out, and everyone's rotations changed as well!

[Deleted]

As a few others before me have stated, the Monk class IS a new class and thus people would have less time to practice it compared to say, a Retribution Paladin.

That only really applies to players that aren't already good at playing dps characters. If you're already familiar with playing a dps class, and you've worked out your tricks for that class, you'll quickly pick up the same level of comfort with any new class after just a week or two.

It doesn't take months to learn a new spec.

[Deleted]

I'm taking sims with a pinch of salt right now.

They don't remotely reflect what i see in my raids at all. The only thing that really sets us back is a lack of a cleave.


You're right, it doesn't. But if you want to hit the top ranks, you can't just play the obvious way. Not to take anything from Mihir's guide, but just playing according to that prio won't get you the best ranks. We're in sort of a similar situation to Boomkins here, where if you don't plan your Tigereye Brew, Xuen, and Energizing Brew around particular parts of a fight, you'll not get the most out of your monk.
That's the only bit which makes it "difficult". You lose a lot of potential dps from poor planning.

But poor planning applies ot every class.

Monks have ToK and ToD to use to squeeze out more dps and extra uptime, but that does not really make all that much difference maybe 1-2% over the course of a fight. otherwise our dmg priority is boring, not even TEB is interesting, there is no finesse in using it, it does not matter if you use it at 5 stacks or 10 as long as you dont generate more at cap or kill the boss wiht any stacks left, just make sure you use it, as its a linear increase with stacks it does not matter how many you have when you use it.

[Deleted]

After reading through this thread, I decided to give my DPS off-spec a shot and it's going alright but I noticed something. The tooltip for the Rising Sun Kick debuff actually says "15% more damage" despite the ability and the guide here saying it's only 10%. Is this just a textual bug or could it be a "hidden buff" that isn't being accounted for in sims?

It was hotfixed from 10-15% a while back, it just requires a patch to update your spell tooltip, which wont go through until 5.1.

---------- Post added 2012-11-04 at 03:05 PM ----------

But poor planning applies ot every class.

Monks have ToK and ToD to use to squeeze out more dps and extra uptime, but that does not really make all that much difference maybe 1-2% over the course of a fight. otherwise our dmg priority is boring, not even TEB is interesting, there is no finesse in using it, it does not matter if you use it at 5 stacks or 10 as long as you dont generate more at cap or kill the boss wiht any stacks left, just make sure you use it, as its a linear increase with stacks it does not matter how many you have when you use it.

That's the thing though, the planning goes an extra step when you want to make sure you can maximise the stacks without capping it for particular parts of a fight. So say Elegon for example, i quickly tot up my average chi-spend per second to know how long it will take me to get 10 stacks. So i can then, during the second transition, work out how long it'll take me to get 10 stacks of brew for the burn in p3, without overcapping it, and losing out beforehand.

I realise that's really on the limit of planning, but it does give better results.

[Alhoon]

There has been numerous proof that WW is NOT doing good DPS and sucks in pretty much every way possible as far as raiding is concerned. Take SimC/other simulations, WoL/raidbots, top level progression guild's opinions, whatever suits you, they all tell the same story: WW sucks at the moment, period. If you don't agree with this, by all means try to argue against it, but do so by bringing in SOME evidence to support your claim. Saying "WW is great because I'm topping meters in my scrub guild" or "WW is new and thus nobody can play it well" is not evidence, it's an opinion that needs some proof to back it up. Other than abysmal DPS, we also have no cleave, terrible interrupt and no raid utility. These can't even be argued, they're crystal clear facts after you've read your spellbook.

[Archimedic]

What ive found in practice is people are really not very good at the mechanics people keep calling simple.

Monk dps isn't amazing sure, but it isn't nearly as bad as 95% of the monks make it look by not properly managing their resources and cooldowns. Very very very few can even manage to have 2 chi ready for rising sun kick when it comes off cooldown so they don't end up delaying it and losing 5-10%+ of their dps over a fight. There are a lot of things like that that so few people do properly in practice that make so much bigger difference with monks than other classes because of duel resource system and the fact that the our damage comes from mostly a few sources while we have to use other abilities to maintain those few.

Refresh tiger power more than you need to? Again losing dps and lots of it. Dont manage your energy properly? Lose a ton of dps. It is funny how in most of my LFR groups so far the top dps is usually a windwalker monk and then several of the bottom dps are more windwalker dps. The priority list is simple, the execution people fail at badly because they over simplify it, don't plan, and hit buttons when they shouldn't.

[Draahl]

What ive found in practice is people are really not very good at the mechanics people keep calling simple.

Monk dps isn't amazing sure, but it isn't nearly as bad as 95% of the monks make it look by not properly managing their resources and cooldowns. Very very very few can even manage to have 2 chi ready for rising sun kick when it comes off cooldown so they don't end up delaying it and losing 5-10%+ of their dps over a fight. There are a lot of things like that that so few people do properly in practice that make so much bigger difference with monks than other classes because of duel resource system and the fact that the our damage comes from mostly a few sources while we have to use other abilities to maintain those few.

Refresh tiger power more than you need to? Again losing dps and lots of it. Dont manage your energy properly? Lose a ton of dps. It is funny how in most of my LFR groups so far the top dps is usually a windwalker monk and then several of the bottom dps are more windwalker dps. The priority list is simple, the execution people fail at badly because they over simplify it, don't plan, and hit buttons when they shouldn't.

This is true to some extent, ofcourse you loose dps if you dont manage your abilities properly. This is true for any class tbh, and is nothing new really. According to WoL im doin decent dps compared to other monks of the world im usually top 100-150 which imo is totally valid. I still find it very much lacking when comparing myself to other melee dps except perhaps warriors.

Tho i am wondering what blizzard where thinking of putting in a mastery which failed with the retri paladin on the monk. It is basicly the same, recieve a free ability that usually cost any type of resource you are using(chi or holy power). Why do they think that would work now when it didnt before??

[mirodin]

You can't use it inside a raid.

Nope, but that doesn't stop you from using it outside and hitting it for a min.

[Deleted]

Nope, but that doesn't stop you from using it outside and hitting it for a min.

It kinda does if i need to go outside for a minute before every pull and then run in.

It's not practical in the slightest.

[mirodin]

It kinda does if i need to go outside for a minute before every pull and then run in.

It's not practical in the slightest.

We both know that that's not the case, you don't always die with 0 stacks, and on top of that not every boss requires high starting dps. I remember when we were waiting for wars to build up rage, or locks to go out and kill some mobs for shards.

As far as our mastery goes, i hope blizzard soon makes some change. Like ppl mentioned they did the same with ret paladins, it didn't work. If they want to make something interesting make it that you get a chance to do double your FoF dmg in half the cast time. That way they fix 2 problems with 1 change.

[Totaltotemic]

Nope, but that doesn't stop you from using it outside and hitting it for a min.

This is what we in the business like to call "pulling things out of your ass that you've never actually done yourself".

As far as people saying that RSK management can somehow make up 10% of your DPS.... no, it doesn't. It's almost never above 20% of total damage, which means that it making up a 10% DPS difference would include wasting over half of the cooldown every time, when even a not very good player is only wasting one second of each CD to Jab first. Also, saying things like "in my opinion" has no place in a discussion about DPS balance without something to back it up ("the Monk in my guild does X!" doesn't count). Monk DPS is around average if played perfectly, that's a fact. Unfortunately, it's also bugged when it comes to FoF and part of that playing perfectly involves having a perfect stat balance on your gear. This results in a below-average performance on the whole.

[mirodin]

This is what we in the business like to call "pulling things out of your ass that you've never actually done yourself".

It's called maximizing your dps, it might be foreign for you, but that doesn't mean no one else does it.

[Totaltotemic]

It's called maximizing your dps, it might be foreign for you, but that doesn't mean no one else does it.

You don't do this in raids. Your guild isn't waiting the 5+ minutes between pulls it would take for your to run all the way out to the instance portal, then build up stacks, then get summoned back to the boss, especially not with the new mechanic of zoning into wherever the last boss you killed was, which makes it a lot longer to run back to the start. On top of that, the turnip is on an hour long cooldown, meaning you'd have to have someone different from your raid coming outside with you each time or you'd have to go find mobs to hit which would make this take even longer. Your comparison to warriors building rage is void because that was always done on critters found inside an instance and never took more than 10 seconds. Your other comparison to Soul Shards is completely wrong because Soul Shards had no influence in combat and at most had to be farmed every 20+ attempts.

I'm unsure whether you're avoiding actually saying that you do this because you don't want to lie, or if you you really just don't want to be wrong.

[Deleted]

What ive found in practice is people are really not very good at the mechanics people keep calling simple.

Monk dps isn't amazing sure, but it isn't nearly as bad as 95% of the monks make it look by not properly managing their resources and cooldowns. Very very very few can even manage to have 2 chi ready for rising sun kick when it comes off cooldown so they don't end up delaying it and losing 5-10%+ of their dps over a fight. There are a lot of things like that that so few people do properly in practice that make so much bigger difference with monks than other classes because of duel resource system and the fact that the our damage comes from mostly a few sources while we have to use other abilities to maintain those few.

Refresh tiger power more than you need to? Again losing dps and lots of it. Dont manage your energy properly? Lose a ton of dps. It is funny how in most of my LFR groups so far the top dps is usually a windwalker monk and then several of the bottom dps are more windwalker dps. The priority list is simple, the execution people fail at badly because they over simplify it, don't plan, and hit buttons when they shouldn't.

Monk DPS is not bad single target, or on many mob aoe, its just appalling on cleave fights (2-3 targets).

We lack on demand burst, and we cant nuke off the pull so we lose the impact of lust like alot of other classes who can nuke on pull.

However, on single target fights we can claw that back over a sustained period of time to some expent if we use our mobility and things like ToK to maximise uptime.


However, its not a hard rotation its not hard to get most of the potential dps out of the spec, its skill cap is incredibly low compared to other classes. I say this as someone who loves monks, and I can pull pretty close to my theoretical max dps on fights that allow it, so its not I dont understand the mechanics, I just dont feel the need to make out my class is harder or more skillful than it really is so I appear a good player.

Monk dps is really really easy, its skill cap is low. I think that because they orignally ditched the no-auto attack (due to obvious pvp burst issues), and also the light/dark chi mechanic (no idea why), and did not replace these with a new interesting mechanic, we are left with a pretty bland class that has little opportunity for skilled players to demonstrate their ability with.


I'm almost always top dps in my raids, apart from stoneguard, or at least in top 3 depending on if there are afflication locks in the group or not! But its not hard to pull that dps, its not challenging to make sure I am using the right stuff, other classes have higher theoretical dps, but are harder to achive that on than windwalkers.