does this game have to be made even simpler for dps?

[tibben]

I find it sad how many people think 30k dps is actually decent at 90.

Considering I'm finishing 5 man heroics at over 30k dps as a 450 item level tank with 450 item level weapon, I would hope that most dps are able to top that. But at the end of the day if we finish the run without wiping due to crap dps or people standing in stuff then I really don't care what they do. Of course, I also get instant queues so they're only wasting their own time when they do half the dps they should be doing. I know I can queue up and be in a new dungeon 3 seconds after I finish my current one.

[DieFichte]

Considering I'm finishing 5 man heroics at over 30k dps as a 450 item level tank with 450 item level weapon, I would hope that most dps are able to top that. But at the end of the day if we finish the run without wiping due to crap dps or people standing in stuff then I really don't care what they do. Of course, I also get instant queues so they're only wasting their own time when they do half the dps they should be doing. I know I can queue up and be in a new dungeon 3 seconds after I finish my current one.

It's easier to pull decent dps as a tank in average gear than as dps.

[tibben]

It's easier to pull decent dps as a tank in average gear than as dps.

I could switch to kitty and test that theory. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd like more concrete evidence than a simple post on MMO Champ. I did several dungeons while leveling as a kitty and was pulling 20-25k dps at like 87-88. If my dps has actually dropped I'll be a little depressed.

[Kevyne-Shandris]

Just because you weren't, it doesn't mean others didn't?

Those were the days of armour pen. Those were such glorious days.

One shotting someone doesn't equal more DPS, it's consistent damage over time. Anyone can crit their way to big numbers with flasks and popping trinkets, too.

The glorious days of WotLK was happy with 4 to 6k DPS in heroic dungeons. Arcane mages did 8 to 10k average in ICC.

Going back to 25man ICC screenshots for healing (as I kept track of healing), I'm seeing around 5.5k HPS average for GS 5600 and 6k for emergency heals (or Dreamwalker...saw a 106,000 crit with Holy Light in Recount...lol) in GS 5800+ gear. 25man ICC Festergut and Rotface took raid healing around 28k min to get to the Crimson tier.

Remember in one guild I was subbing for in a 10man raid, spent about 6 wipes on Saurfang telling the RL this won't work, as I used everything short of DI to try to keep the tanks and marks alive (telling him we didn't have enough HPS to clear it without being totally out of mana before 30%). As soon as one hunter left, and was replace with another that did 7k, we cleared Saurfang in no time (that's when I started watching the DPS meter, as I'm sick of the blame game...they didn't have enough DPS to clear the check but blaming me when I did more HPS than that hunter holding the raid back. A mere 7k was only needed). It was not uncommon to see raiders, especially melee DPS doing 5k, especially if they're below the then GS 5600 number. You needed a min of GS 5300 to get into ICC in PuGs, and most wouldn't take you unless you had 5500, so they could clear Saurfang.

That's how you remember the numbers back then, especially when faced with gear/DPS check bosses.

[Otimus]

does more need to be explained by blizzard for noobs to wow?

I missed the part where Blizzard attempted to really explain anything at all about playing the game to anyone :x
Which is the major core issue with so-called "bad players" existing, mostly.

I mean, what more do they even attempt in the actual game past, like.. the dungeon journal (Which isn't even very concise), and that little tab in the spellbook with your "Core Abilities" (Which has only existed since the 5.xx patches!). The answer? Not a hell of a lot.

[tibben]

The glorious days of WotLK was happy with 4 to 6k DPS in heroic dungeons. Arcane mages did 8 to 10k average in ICC.

With full heroic ICC gear people were pushing 13-15k in 25 heroic ruby sanctum (i.e. no ICC buff). As a tank I was doing 5k dps in heroic 5 man dungeons. I don't recall my GS (6300?), but I had basically full 277 gear with a couple 284s and one 264 ring where the upgrade would NEVER drop on my bear druid. Either way, 20k was not happening for anyone outside the ICC buff.

[Pickwickman]

I missed the part about when he took his recount. With that low DPS it could have been that the DPS just didn't know about the button mechanic on the last boss and that the OP is just checking his Current Fight tab on the last boss.

If you see things like this happen OP, be a decent member of the community and TELL THEM TO PRESS THE BUTTON.

[Kevyne-Shandris]

With full heroic ICC gear people were pushing 13-15k in 25 heroic ruby sanctum (i.e. no ICC buff). As a tank I was doing 5k dps in heroic 5 man dungeons. I don't recall my GS (6300?), but I had basically full 277 gear with a couple 284s and one 264 ring where the upgrade would NEVER drop on my bear druid. Either way, 20k was not happening for anyone outside the ICC buff.

Probably 6400 (highest I though was 6.6k and with Shadowmourne). I had 6053 in full 264.

13-15k if maxed out with raid buffs and flasks and other tricks (yeah, I like my mana raising to 45k during those peak fights when a team mate would boost my mana pool, too).

That is not the norm.

Nor the norm for an average heroic dungeon run (where players are gearing up, even). Expect 1/3 less, as group buffs don't compare with raid buffs (and it does make a big difference). In WoW you can't do squat without gear, it's so gear orientated.

[Gandrake]

aim wondrous rapidity at ranged

i dare you

watch hilarity ensue

[a little Kappa]

There are bots called "DungeonBuddy" which is the same concept as HonorBuddy. It basicly ques up for random and farms you valor. People using that is probably what u encountered.

[spaace]

It gets worse..

I'm not any good... but common.. by the time you're 90.. the game tells you the spell you need to use, in the right order... but people still struggle to hit lvl 80/85 dps benchmarks..

I used to raid 10man with a warlock.. he used to do 40k dps (full hero+ lots of lfr gear) saying aff locks are in a bad place right now..
Our ex-resto shaman used to do 22k hps and be oom all the time, while our resto druid did the other 80k hps..



But in a 5 man.. I'm done caring.. Just give me a tank that isn't retarded and asks for cc on 1 pack of mobs.... I'll do your 120k dps

[TJ]

Apparently so even though it takes minimal effort to do decent dps.

[Duncanîdaho]

It does not need to be simpler. What blizzard needs is a guide for when new players hit 90 to inform them of things like hit and expertise caps and macros. The majority of players don't use the forums or have never raided and therefore not aware of these things. You can always tell when a player knows his stat info or not pretty much immediately. I met a guy(a rogue) the other day who did not even know what reforging was. Which is blizzards fault. It's not like in game they mention anything like what the concept of stat weights are or that there even is a transmog/reforge guy and the purpose of it for new people that hit 90. They leave it to the players to totally figure out everything regarding stats themselves or rely on other players, and many get left behind. Leaving some stuff to the players is good, but necessary things to DPS like hit/expertise caps, the player should be informed of in game.

[Saffa]

easier it gets, the worst people get

what we need is to make it harder, lose 7 million people but that won't happen

we need to cull the population

Well, if they did that you would have to get used to this expansion because Blizz would not be making any more - and if you dig into the numbers, considering how few actually raid you would have to lose about 9.5 million and rename the game to Snowflakes'R'Us

[Socialhealer]

ele shaman 4.5k dps....i think he had aggro all the time and that was lightning shield procs, about the only way i can pull 4.5k on my ele sham

[Saffa]

Or Blizzard could develop a way of improving the playerbase while they enjoy themselves. That seems pretty unlikely though.

Or Blizz could remove the 100k snowflakes and let the people who enjoy the whole game go on enjoying the whole game and the end content people could just log onto world of raids and do that 24/7

[OscaR]

you get much more than 2.8k from pressing any random damaging button. It's not a matter of L2P, more like what they were doing instead of hitting the boss.

[cFortyfive]

Or Blizz could remove the 100k snowflakes and let the people who enjoy the whole game go on enjoying the whole game and the end content people could just log onto world of raids and do that 24/7

Yeah we get it you like the word snowflakes.
Anyways the only way to make it any easier would be developing their own bot engine for the game. Three days ago or something I was doing a couple random heroics with two friends and those dps...that was far away from being a l2p issue. But well this is what the kick vote function is for.

[Stir]

I think the biggest difference between the OP and the rest of their group is simple:
The OP WANTED to run the instance.

The others just wanted xp and drops without having to do much.

There's three types of players you encounter in a dungeon:

1: The Invalids. These are people who want to be carried through everything without actually doing anything.
2: The Maniacs. They want it, they want it fast, they want it now. They'll ninja-pull entire hallways, taunt stuff off tanks, and never use mechanics like interrupts. They will complain when a tank takes a few seconds to appraise a situation. Maniac healers will refuse to cast a heal unless you're near-dead, preferring instead to pull more enemies and deal more damage. Maniac tanks don't use cooldowns, and prefer to never wait for DPS to actually kill stuff.
3: The fun-runners. These players run an instance because they enjoy team-work rather than soloing. A dungeon doesn't level as fast as quest-running, but it's more fun... Right? Right...?

Needless to say, running with group #3 is probably best, and, ironically, fastest and most satisfying. It's a dying breed, though.

[Drilnos]

you get much more than 2.8k from pressing any random damaging button. It's not a matter of L2P, more like what they were doing instead of hitting the boss.

They weren't hitting the button when they went enraged. 100% less hit chance will do some terrible things to a person's dps. If they went completely tunnel-visioned, didn't have scrolling combat text turned on and didn't have recount installed they might not have even known that they weren't hurting the boss. In any event recount has more numbers than the almighty dps meter. I'd be interested to know what the activity section read there.