Heart of fear world firsts heroics thread!

[Ashrr]

from what i heard of beta sha of fear was very hard, i wonder what hes like on heroic

I did Sha of Fear on normal in the beta and well, he just seemed ridiculously overtuned rather than hard mechanics, but of course, normal mode is normal mode.

[Tehterokkar]

from what i heard of beta sha of fear was very hard, i wonder what hes like on heroic

Considering everything was tuned higher than in beta(for testing purposes). I think Sha of Fear will be on the level of Ragnaros. Final fight of the tier SHOULD be Brutal, not lolmode like Madness was, Spine was way harder than Madness since it was just a fail fight anyway(On paper it looked cool, but in reality, it was a trash pack with some mechanics)

[Ashrr]

Considering everything was tuned higher than in beta(for testing purposes). I think Sha of Fear will be on the level of Ragnaros. Final fight of the tier SHOULD be Brutal, not lolmode like Madness was, Spine was way harder than Madness since it was just a fail fight anyway(On paper it looked cool, but in reality, it was a trash pack with some mechanics)

I really hope so. Ragnaros Heroic was an extremely well designed fight and a truly hard encounter that tested every aspect of a player's skillset. Movement, Burst Damage, Sustained DPS, AOE, Healing requirements, and very different phases... it had it all.

[Deleted]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Vanilla raids were extremely easy, players just sucked back then. The only hard raid in vanilla was Naxx 40. And I'm not talking about overtuned and bugged bosses. I'm talking about correctly tuned bosses that had proper mechanics. Back in vanilla and TBC the hardcore guilds didn't raid as much as they do now. It wasn't until late TBC the hardcore guilds woke up early to raid.

Stop talking about things you don't know shit about. You say you seriously doubt that raiders have gotten better. Are you retarded? Of course they have gotten better. Even casuals have become better at the game. You can't compare the vanilla standards to the standards today. People sucked at the game in vanilla. Just look at any old-school PvP movie.

i think you're the retard, you say the players have gotten better? you're kidding me, right? so i guess the players from the high end guilds back then sucked, guilds like death and taxes and nihilum thats like saying sugeons suck at surgery. Also the players havent gotten better, its the classes that have gotten better and have all become viable.

[Pariah]

Heroic Sha of Fear could turn into Heroic Ragnaros. Time will tell but it very much stands the chance.

As for this discussion about raid difficulty: it has only gotten more difficult as time has progressed. We, as raiders, have progressively become more adept with our classes just as Blizzard has become more adept at designing raid encounters that take our now honed skills into consideration. Tighter enrage timers, more mechanics, random ability integration, and active raid cool down management have become standard in today's heroic raid encounters.

Take the encounters of yesterday and tune them to today's health and damage and take the encounters of today and tune them to yesterday's health and damage and give them to their appropriate raiders and imagine which would drop first. I think any rational evaluation would come to the same conclusion as most competitive hardcore raiders' of today.

[Deleted]

i think you're the retard, you say the players have gotten better? you're kidding me, right? so i guess the players from the high end guilds back then sucked, guilds like death and taxes and nihilum thats like saying sugeons suck at surgery. Also the players havent gotten better, its the classes that have gotten better and have all become viable.

I'm really sorry for you. No one should have this level of incompetence. I'm ending it right here. No point arguing with you.

[zenga]

i think you're the retard, you say the players have gotten better? you're kidding me, right? so i guess the players from the high end guilds back then sucked, guilds like death and taxes and nihilum thats like saying sugeons suck at surgery. Also the players havent gotten better, its the classes that have gotten better and have all become viable.

By that analogy:

- you are not a better driver after 8 years than you were your first year of driving a car?
- you are not a better teacher after 8 years than you were in your first year of teaching?
- you are not a better lover after 8 years of practising than you were the first time you banged a chick?

There is something called experience. Having dealt with difficult boss mechanics over and over, having dealt with stress and annoyances that are natural to any progress cycle, having dealt with frustrations - setbacks and disappointments for 8 years. ... they all make that someone who has been raiding for 8 years is now a much better/seasoned/experienced player than he/she was back in the day.

[Lucyinthesky]

In beta Sha of Fear wasn't actually killed if i have my facts correct

You dont. Killed by several guilds.

[Deleted]

Fair enough, didn't pay much attention to boss kills in beta

[Deleted]

I'm really sorry for you. No one should have this level of incompetence. I'm ending it right here. No point arguing with you.

wow, its so annoying to have discussions with kiddies, when ppl dont agree with them on their first arguement they just put their heads inthe the dirt like an ostrich.

i dont think you have any comprehension of what it takes to gain skill or to improve your skill. once you're as skillfull as these guys its virtually impossible to improve your skill, to say that players back in vanilla and tbc sucked, just shows how little you know about raids back then.

[Lucyinthesky]

Fair enough, didn't pay much attention to boss kills in beta

The raid setup might have been sketchy, but atleast 3x 25m guilds killed it on normal, still very challenging tho.

---------- Post added 2012-11-07 at 02:03 PM ----------

wow, its so annoying to have discussions with kiddies, when ppl dont agree with them on their first arguement they just put their heads inthe the dirt like an ostrich.

i dont think you have any comprehension of what it takes to gain skill or to improve your skill. once you're as skillfull as these guys its virtually impossible to improve your skill, to say that players back in vanilla and tbc sucked, just shows how little you know about raids back then.

You tell em almara2512! you tell em

[Deleted]

By that analogy:

- you are not a better driver after 8 years than you were your first year of driving a car?
- you are not a better teacher after 8 years than you were in your first year of teaching?
- you are not a better lover after 8 years of practising than you were the first time you banged a chick?

There is something called experience. Having dealt with difficult boss mechanics over and over, having dealt with stress and annoyances that are natural to any progress cycle, having dealt with frustrations - setbacks and disappointments for 8 years. ... they all make that someone who has been raiding for 8 years is now a much better/seasoned/experienced player than he/she was back in the day.

you're correct, but you're not taking into account the confines of the class. a lvl 60 lock and lvl 70 lock isnt the same, or in this analogy the same job. with each expansion classes change and players play those classes differently. what snore said was that players back then sucked at playing wow which is blatently wrong, they were still extremely skillful at playing their class back then and ofc continued to be so as their class evolved and changed. a surgeon doesnt necesarily become a better surgeon when a new technique comes along, its their profession that gets easier. this is also true for classes in wow.

[Old]

wow, its so annoying to have discussions with kiddies, when ppl dont agree with them on their first arguement they just put their heads in the the dirt like an ostrich.

i dont think you have any comprehension of what it takes to gain skill or to improve your skill. once you're as skillfull as these guys its virtually impossible to improve your skill, to say that players back in vanilla and tbc sucked, just shows how little you know about raids back then.

Speaking from experience, it's actually plain truth, players in general as well as in top guilds were pretty bad. If you think we haven't been improving the past 8 years, sadly you are wrong. On top of this, rotations were extremely straightforward, balance between classes was so bad some were doing 10 times better than others. Healing was basically 1 spell per class. Things were not playing in your favor (lag, itemization, no queue on spells, bugs taking weeks to be fixed, etc.), the least to say, but player skill and gameplay were just light years away from what they are now.

[Lethora]

i dont think you have any comprehension of what it takes to gain skill or to improve your skill. once you're as skillfull as these guys its virtually impossible to improve your skill, to say that players back in vanilla and tbc sucked, just shows how little you know about raids back then.

I raided stuff back in vanilla days, it wasn't that hard. Neither was most of TBC content (Sunwell was somewhat hard, yes). Players sucked big time, numbers were different.
My guild wasn't top-100 (until I switched realms in 2.4 for a more hardcore guild and finished content with pre-nerf M'uru and KJ), but we still managed to down Kael and Vashj before 2.3.

[Pariah]

once you're as skillfull as these guys its virtually impossible to improve your skill, to say that players back in vanilla and tbc sucked, just shows how little you know about raids back then.

Hardcore raiders love to improve. Ask the players you idolize of the past if they still play if they are better than they were and you will find most likely a unanimous response. We get better with experience. We all do.

The pinnacle of progression and performance hasn't been achieved and although you could make a solid argument that Paragon as a 25m guild scraped their fingers on the glass ceiling of performance, no one has shattered it. Perfect play is 0 wipes. As insane as that sounds, it is what it is. A perfect car would be completely silent as noise is a product of wasted energy. These are goals that are unmeetable but we all push towards them anyways because that's what self- and group-improvement are all about.

Death and Taxes was a great guild. Superb in fact. Yet they were not performing at the same level of Paragon last year. And there may come a time when a guild surpasses the ability of Paragon. We do not know. But with each year notched into the belts of stupendous raiders, you will see more edges pushed-- stretched to their limits.

The amount of coordination it takes for flawless play is statistically improbable but we will all strive for it. To think it has already been achieved is an insult to those who laid the groundwork and to those who continue to push the boundaries. Raiding has become more difficult to account for our improvement. It is a struggle between what we can achieve and what Blizzard can design and so far the fight isn't over.

[Ashrr]

you're correct, but you're not taking into account the confines of the class. a lvl 60 lock and lvl 70 lock isnt the same, or in this analogy the same job. with each expansion classes change and players play those classes differently. what snore said was that players back then sucked at playing wow which is blatently wrong, they were still extremely skillful at playing their class back then and ofc continued to be so as their class evolved and changed. a surgeon doesnt necesarily become a better surgeon when a new technique comes along, its their profession that gets easier. this is also true for classes in wow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br1hXGXJ7Tg - World First MC Ragnaros from the POV of a clicker and raid chatter Even assuming there was no competition at that time, just being able to do those things in the middle of an encounter and getting away with it says a lot.

Classes were way simpler back in those days. I played a Mage in TBC and I didn't even have to manage Combustion, just popped it every time it was off cooldown for increased crit chance. TBC did have some good encounters and quite a few players were skilled, but overall, people were a lot worse than the the playerbase today. Many players who played in the big name guilds of the past would not make the cut in current rosters.

Adding to that, I recently chanced upon a log where a player who was part of a very important World First kill was absolutely getting destroyed by the others in the raid group, performance wise. I'm not gonna mention any names but I don't think this player has an active spot anymore.

[Holofernes]

omg all those prenerf muru guys . i have senn 100 of those in thes forum...
Muru/entropius was nerfed after only 11 guilds worldwide killed it, and the prenerfed version was only available one lockout, 5 days. from someone who actually was part of kill nr. 9.

[Deleted]

Speaking from experience, it's actually plain truth, players in general as well as in top guilds were pretty bad. If you think we haven't been improving the past 8 years, sadly you are wrong. On top of this, rotations were extremely straightforward, balance between classes was so bad some were doing 10 times better than others. Healing was basically 1 spell per class. Things were not playing in your favor (lag, itemization, no queue on spells, bugs taking weeks to be fixed, etc.), the least to say, but player skill and gameplay were just light years away from what they are now.

you're still not taking the confines of the class at the time into account. you're right when you say that class balance was abysmal, but the rotations back then was pretty much what they are now, ofc a lot were easier back then, but they arent particularly harder now. the only thing that i would say have really changed a lot is healing as there are now a lot more options. i wouldnt say that player skill was light years away from what it is now if anything, i feel its gotten easier to play each class now due to the evolution of the classes as its easier to do well, i would agree with the game play part tho.

[MCitra]

I raided stuff back in vanilla days, it wasn't that hard. Neither was most of TBC content (Sunwell was somewhat hard, yes). Players sucked big time, numbers were different.
My guild wasn't top-100 (until I switched realms in 2.4 for a more hardcore guild and finished content with pre-nerf M'uru and KJ), but we still managed to down Kael and Vashj before 2.3.

Was in a casual guild and we managed to kill Vashj pre nerf aswell, and we where far from good overall (to be honsest.)
LK HC 25 man and Ragnaros heroic 25 man was insane, and as prev stated if you fucked up one a phase it was a wipe no questions asked and i liked that in a heroic.
I also really liked Halion heroic, we where the only guild back then who killed it on heroic 25 man before cataclysm realised on the realm (bad realm tho) but it was a fun fight even tho the trash was butt boring.

I do not play anymore but seeing how fast the first raid was cleared on heroic im sure its not the same. the end bosses should atleast be a challenge but after Cataclysm DS heroic where Spine took longer then madness (20 min after kill or something i heard was world first?) might seen that wrong but it made me laugh.


Even raidinstances like Gruul / Mag / kara is missed greatly because it was a chillax fun with friends and others when the other (harder) raidinstances was done or not raidtime yet.
Now its dailys/world spawnlolshaboss and lfr which they manage to kinda fail on aswell. Not to even go into how they managed to fuck up all the classes where healers dps and tanks dps or dps heals and blablabla. Its a bowl of mess!


Anyways ive been watching method's post for world first kills since last night, no update so i hope its a posetive thing that bosses is hard and not some shit bug again and people cannot do the instance itself (i heard some locked out ID's bug happening?)

[Silent Earth]

Hardcore raiders love to improve. Ask the players you idolize of the past if they still play if they are better than they were and you will find most likely a unanimous response. We get better with experience. We all do.

The pinnacle of progression and performance hasn't been achieved and although you could make a solid argument that Paragon as a 25m guild scraped their fingers on the glass ceiling of performance, no one has shattered it. Perfect play is 0 wipes. As insane as that sounds, it is what it is. A perfect car would be completely silent as noise is a product of wasted energy. These are goals that are unmeetable but we all push towards them anyways because that's what self- and group-improvement are all about.

Death and Taxes was a great guild. Superb in fact. Yet they were not performing at the same level of Paragon last year. And there may come a time when a guild surpasses the ability of Paragon. We do not know. But with each year notched into the belts of stupendous raiders, you will see more edges pushed-- stretched to their limits.

The amount of coordination it takes for flawless play is statistically improbable but we will all strive for it. To think it has already been achieved is an insult to those who laid the groundwork and to those who continue to push the boundaries. Raiding has become more difficult to account for our improvement. It is a struggle between what we can achieve and what Blizzard can design and so far the fight isn't over.

Hear, hear!