1. #1

    DW Frost Stat Weights?

    Does anyone know the stat weights for DW Frost? I know the priority goes

    STR > Hit (7.5%) = Expertise (7.5%) > Mastery > Haste > Crit

    But how much better is STR compared to Mastery? Is 160 STR better than 320 Mastery?

    What about the relative value of Haste and Crit? How far behind are those stats compared to Mastery?

  2. #2
    Deleted
    It depends on your gear how the stat value go up and down.

  3. #3
    Mastery is about 66% the power of strength. 320 Mastery is about 25% more effective than 160 Strength according to the weights. Haste is very close to Mastery in value, so it is viable to go haste over mastery, just not optimal. Crit trails a little further behind in value, being ~75% as effective as either stat and about half as effective against strength. Basically this means that in gemming you should use yellow gem slots for 320 mastery, red gem slots for str/mastery orange gems, and blue slots can use hit/mastery green gems. Enchants should focus on strength when available, and reforging should focus mastery and haste, following hit/exp capping.

  4. #4
    Field Marshal Dytzy's Avatar
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    I did a sim this morning.

    with STR being 1 the secondary's were as follows

    Attack power 0.38
    Expertise 0.52
    Hit 0.48
    Crit 0.27
    Haste 0.39
    Mastery 0.38

    that's as DW, with mastery stacked gemming (which I will be changing to STR stacked gems again, i was testing the differance) at a 485 ilvl on a single target patchwurk fight with 463 weapons. I simmed at 74.8k dps

  5. #5
    Deleted
    My sim from a few hours ago show about the same. I am 485 gear level with Elegon LFR (476) as MH and Melevolent (PvP 470) as OH. Currently non-buffed at 5003 haste and 4516 mastery.

    STR values as 1. Each is reported to it.

    WDPS: 1.54
    WOHDPS: 0.76
    Mastery: 0.38
    Haste: 0.37
    Exp: 0.36
    Crit: 0.30

    Making any gemming usefull if you have strenght. 80 strenght + 160 haste/mastery for the yellow socket to get the extra +60 strenght socket bonuses, on red go +160 strenght always and on blue go 80 strenght + 160 hit. Total simmed dps is at 81.1k on patchwork fight.

    Still don't understand where did people get that +320 mastery/haste beats +80 strenght + 160haste/mastery or the "plain" +160 strenght. In even worst gear, like at 470ish ilevel strenght simmed more powerfull, meaning unless you have the current tier BiS (none has) strenght is still they way to go!
    Last edited by mmoc0127ab56ff; 2012-11-06 at 09:15 PM.

  6. #6
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by naturestorm View Post
    Still don't understand where did people get that +320 mastery/haste beats +80 strenght + 160haste/mastery or the "plain" +160 strenght. In even worst gear, like at 470ish ilevel strenght simmed more powerfull, meaning unless you have the current tier BiS (none has) strenght is still they way to go!
    Those sims are made with BiS gear so totally useless if you are in a 470-480-490 gear. People just think that sims on EJ apply to anyone in anycase, which is really wrong.

  7. #7
    Deleted
    Yeah I was thinking the same Italiandk, but as I stated before when I run the simm in about 470ish gear level strenght was even stronger. So my guess is as your gear improves you have to keep simming to see when you go past the spot where is worth regemming haste/mastery and even then after you regem the stats might change.

    Either way, keeping with strenght untill I have BiS.

    Also a quick more advanced question: According to simm expertise is higher then crit value but in the real world is it worth to reforge expertise into something and leave the crit untouched or leave the expertise untouched and reforge the crit? I am asking this in regards with some items that have exp/crit on them like rings.
    Last edited by mmoc0127ab56ff; 2012-11-07 at 09:11 AM.

  8. #8
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by naturestorm View Post
    Yeah I was thinking the same Italiandk, but as I stated before when I run the simm in about 470ish gear level strenght was even stronger. So my guess is as your gear improves you have to keep simming to see when you go past the spot where is worth regemming haste/mastery and even then after you regem the stats might change.
    Yes, everyone should do like you. Applying stat weights from a BiS simulation to a 470 geared char is simply wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by naturestorm View Post
    Also a quick more advanced question: According to simm expertise is higher then crit value but in the real world is it worth to reforge expertise into something and leave the crit untouched or leave the expertise untouched and reforge the crit? I am asking this in regards with some items that have exp/crit on them like rings.
    It depends on how much expertise you have over the cap. If you reforge expertise and you go below the cap it's better to reforge out of crit; if you reforge expertise and you stay over the cap then reforge out of expertise. But reforging is not about one single item, it's about the whole gear.

  9. #9
    Blademaster Protreh's Avatar
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    Can you guys tell me how to look up on the stat weights of my char in simcraft ? I simcrafted my char many times but didnt see any column that shows my stat weights

  10. #10
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Protreh View Post
    Can you guys tell me how to look up on the stat weights of my char in simcraft ? I simcrafted my char many times but didnt see any column that shows my stat weights
    You have to tell the simcraf to calculate stat weights, otherwise it will "just" sim your dps.

    To do so you have to go to "Options" then "Scaling" then check the stats you need to analyze

  11. #11
    Deleted
    After reading this thread i decided to do a sim with my character too. Item LvL ~476:
    Str Crit Haste Mastery
    1.00 0.23 0.40 0.32

    I thought mastery was always better then haste when playing dual wield Guess i was wrong... Atm i'm fully gemmed/reforged to mastery. When the servers go up i'll change it according to the stat weights of my own sim. Can i use the weights from simcraft at askmrrobot?

  12. #12
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by schlen View Post
    After reading this thread i decided to do a sim with my character too. Item LvL ~476:
    Str Crit Haste Mastery
    1.00 0.23 0.40 0.32

    I thought mastery was always better then haste when playing dual wield Guess i was wrong... Atm i'm fully gemmed/reforged to mastery. When the servers go up i'll change it according to the stat weights of my own sim. Can i use the weights from simcraft at askmrrobot?
    You MUST

  13. #13
    Is the simcraft working as intented for middle geared dks (i.e. DW 482 ilvl)? I sim my char and it outputs the following results:

    Exp: 0.54
    Hit: 0.48
    Crit: 0.30
    Haste: 0.45
    Mastery: 0.34

    I expected mastery to be on top of haste. Currently i use my own stat weights in order to maintain mastery above 30%. Should I follow the haste>mastery prio provided by the simcraft?

    Confused to the bone :P

  14. #14
    Deleted
    My own guess as I was frost 2h with lots of haste and DW with lots of mastery is that there is a sweet spot in the middle to balance the stats. Recent as DW when I had mastery about 1k+ more then haste simm show haste over mastery as stat weight. Now since I have about +500 more haste then mastery it shows mastery over haste. Not by much in either case, you could almost consider them as equal but I do think that my general guess that you need to even them out seems valid.

  15. #15
    I am 492 ilvl, raiding DW with a heroic and a normal Elegon ax. When I sim my results on a single target patchwerk fight, like others I find the following weights

    Str - 1.00
    Mastery - 0.44
    Haste - 0.45
    Crit - 0.33

    I gem strength in my red sockets, strength and mastery in yellow sockets, and strength and hit in blue sockets.

    I reforge to mastery over haste for a couple of reasons. Mastery provide more benefits when there are multiple targets or when you are running between targets. These situations occur often in my experience. However, even on Feng, which is as close to a patchwork fight as you will find this tier (at least as melee) my dps is good. That's my 2 cents anyway.

    PS My armory may show random stuff since I often retalent or reforge to test things or experiment.

  16. #16
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ant13 View Post
    Is the simcraft working as intented for middle geared dks (i.e. DW 482 ilvl)?
    Stat weights on EJ are calculated with BiS gear so no, they don't work for middle geared dks.

    You have to calculate your own stat weights.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Italiandk View Post
    Stat weights on EJ are calculated with BiS gear so no, they don't work for middle geared dks.

    You have to calculate your own stat weights.
    That is exactly what I did, the stats, I provided 4 posts above, are those calculated using the simcraft for my own toon. That's why I am asking if simcarft works as intented. Because if the stat weights are correct and as a consequence the stat priorities (and I have no reason to doubt their accuracy), meaning haste>mastery for my dw toon and a lot of other dw toons out there, then there is no default rule as stated in elitistsjerk site. I m not speaking for my self, cause i sim my toon for every new piece I take, but there are a lot of people that just read a guide and follow it blindly. Such misinformation should be avoid, with all regards. Each individual char has its own stat priorities, not only stat weights, this is something that has to be cleared along the community.
    Last edited by ant13; 2012-11-08 at 01:35 PM.

  18. #18
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ant13 View Post
    That is exactly what I did, the stats, I provided 4 posts above, are those calculated using the simcraft for my own toon. That's why I am asking if simcarft works as intented. Because if the stat weights are correct and as a consequence the stat priorities (and I have no reason to doubt their accuracy), meaning haste>mastery for my dw toon and a lot of other dw toons out there, then there is no default rule as stated in elitistsjerk site. I m not speaking for my self, cause i sim my toon for every new piece I take, but there are a lot of people that just read a guide and follow it blindly. Such misinformation should be avoid, with all regards. Each individual char has its own stat priorities, not only stat weights, this is something that has to be cleared along the community.
    It's not EJ's fault, it's people's fault that don't understand what "stat weight with BiS gear" means. EJ can't do sims for every item you get so they simply calculate stat weights with end game gear: normal people that won't never achieve BiS gear must calculate their own stat weights themselves.

    As side note you have to understand also what's the EJ's point: it's not like mmo-c or wowhead or similar sites, they talk about min-maxing tons at end game just theorically, in fact they refer only to maths and sims, not like us "I do well on X boss with X haste and Y mastery".

    Last thing, we could also argue about UH is better than Frost and 2H is worse than DW. This come always down from simulations with BiS gear: if you have 480 gear you may perform better with UH or 2h rather than DW. If you get what I mean you understand that EJ is totally useless if you don't understand what's the point in their guides.
    Last edited by mmocc39afa2be3; 2012-11-08 at 01:45 PM.

  19. #19
    Field Marshal Dytzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ant13 View Post
    That is exactly what I did, the stats, I provided 4 posts above, are those calculated using the simcraft for my own toon. That's why I am asking if simcarft works as intented. Because if the stat weights are correct and as a consequence the stat priorities (and I have no reason to doubt their accuracy), meaning haste>mastery for my dw toon and a lot of other dw toons out there, then there is no default rule as stated in elitistsjerk site. I m not speaking for my self, cause i sim my toon for every new piece I take, but there are a lot of people that just read a guide and follow it blindly. Such misinformation should be avoid, with all regards. Each individual char has its own stat priorities, not only stat weights, this is something that has to be cleared along the community.
    I would say that if you want to focus on having more dps for single-target low movement fights, I would prioritize Haste over Mastery.

    If you want to do more dps on aoe/cleave/high movement fights, I would prioritize mastery over haste.

    The reason Haste is better for single target is because you gain no benefit from extra damage (cleave damage) from howling blast. (which mastery helps a lot more)

    So 1 HB does less damage VS 1 person then VS many.

    In single target fights your focus moves from doing more damage per howling blast, to simply doing more howling blasts, which gives you more FS, which gives you higher single target dps. (Which haste helps a lot more)

    They are fairly even, but again it depends on what your focus is.

  20. #20
    Currently Strength gems will always be better than Mastery gems. This will most likely change mid next tier.

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