[Holy] Fix my Heals!

[bouchbagfett]

Don't bother with 7170 haste EF or not. Especially for 25 man raiding, any amount of haste is vastly over-rated. But if you want to listen to all this "3506/7170/10867" crap while the people repeating these buzzwords still can't actually tell you what you gain, well, I guess that's within your right.

Do the various BP's add much? No, is it nothing, No. Haste does more than add EF ticks, it lets you cast faster and give you more burst healing. It comes at a mana expense, but it does give you more burst. Saying Haste does nothing is a mistake, it is still valuable. But as you can see the difference between 25% and 45% haste is small, all of our gearing choices make fairly small gains in our output. Item Level and proper use of abilities and CD's mater the most.


As for Fractalize: There is a difference between optimal and viable. Having 14k mana for SH is not optimal but it is still viable. At your Item level if you converted 2k spirit to mastery you would gain about 4% more output. 4% is not make or break. You can keep your gem/reforge and swap back an forth and know you are not destroying your output.

[Tyranader]

Do the various BP's add much? No, is it nothing, No. Haste does more than add EF ticks, it lets you cast faster and give you more burst healing. It comes at a mana expense, but it does give you more burst. Saying Haste does nothing is a mistake, it is still valuable. But as you can see the difference between 25% and 45% haste is small, all of our gearing choices make fairly small gains in our output. Item Level and proper use of abilities and CD's mater the most.


As for Fractalize: There is a difference between optimal and viable. Having 14k mana for SH is not optimal but it is still viable. At your Item level if you converted 2k spirit to mastery you would gain about 4% more output. 4% is not make or break. You can keep your gem/reforge and swap back an forth and know you are not destroying your output.

So do I stick with EF and go 7170 haste or not? I'm now even more confused.

Two out of 3 bosses you named, you can use a Yak outside (Protectors and Shaman).



EF is viable in almost all 25 man fights... so I don't get what your problem is. If you refuse to use the correct reforge for SH, then just stay EF. Simple? Before 5.4 Paladins have been using EF only for 25 man, you actually think you're supposed to roll that on the whole raid?



Because the gains are 1) an extra tick on EF HoT which is a stupidly large amount of overheal, and 2) marginally faster casts (and faster mana drain) which is completely trash compared to extra mastery, especially since in 25 man raids (with lots of absorbs/smart heals) absorbs will make up a large percentage of your healing.

No I don't think I am meant to roll it on 25 people that's not possible. I was just comparing it to 10 man thats all. I can just about sustain EF with DSoD in 25 man doing HR-HR-HS-EF.

My issue with "not using the corrent SH reforge" is that I don't want to inconvenance my raid by reforging all the time... What is wrong with keeping 18k Mastery with Might and 14k Spirit because that works for both EF and SH... I gain what 4% output and loose the ability to run both EF and SH with the same Gear setup and around 1000G a week on reforging (God I Can't wait till that system is gone) and I'm not particularly rich in this game so I'd rather not burn gold.

[nightfalls]

Do the various BP's add much? No, is it nothing, No. Haste does more than add EF ticks, it lets you cast faster and give you more burst healing. It comes at a mana expense, but it does give you more burst.

But burst comes with cooldowns, not with haste stacking. Let's not forget that above 25% haste you will be GCD capped during Divine Favor. That dramatically reduces Haste's actual value, since you gain very little during your "important" healing times.

Don't forget Divine Favor doesn't reduce Shock CD either, so it's not like you can be able to only Shock for HP during DF and not Radiance.

- - - Updated - - -

So do I stick with EF and go 7170 haste or not? I'm now even more confused.

Short Answer: Just don't.
Longer Answer: If you want to believe the 7170 hype, I won't stop you.

My issue with "not using the corrent SH reforge" is that I don't want to inconvenance my raid by reforging all the time... What is wrong with keeping 18k Mastery with Might and 14k Spirit because that works for both EF and SH... I gain what 4% output and loose the ability to run both EF and SH with the same Gear setup and around 1000G a week on reforging (God I Can't wait till that system is gone) and I'm not particularly rich in this game so I'd rather not burn gold.

What is wrong is that with 18k mastery and 14k spirit you gain nothing by switching to SH, you should just run EF the entire time.

[Tyranader]

But burst comes with cooldowns, not with haste stacking. Let's not forget that above 25% haste you will be GCD capped during Divine Favor. That dramatically reduces Haste's actual value, since you gain very little during your "important" healing times.

Don't forget Divine Favor doesn't reduce Shock CD either, so it's not like you can be able to only Shock for HP during DF and not Radiance.

- - - Updated - - -



Short Answer: Just don't.
Longer Answer: If you want to believe the 7170 hype, I won't stop you.



What is wrong is that with 18k mastery and 14k spirit you gain nothing by switching to SH, you should just run EF the entire time.

So my choices are...

Run 14k Spirit and EF all the time or Drop down to something like 10K Spirit for more Mastery and us SH but Reforge for the few fights where EF is betteR?

What is the benefits to SH over EF?

[nightfalls]

What is the benefits to SH over EF?

A large amount of the benefits is that SH mana savings allows you to drop 4-6k spirit in favor of pure mastery and haste. Since you are not doing this, you are foregoing a ton of the benefits.

[Tyranader]

A large amount of the benefits is that SH mana savings allows you to drop 4-6k spirit in favor of pure mastery and haste. Since you are not doing this, you are foregoing a ton of the benefits.

What would I loose if I ran SH on those fights where you are meant to run EF?

[nightfalls]

What would I loose if I ran SH on those fights where you are meant to run EF?

Malkorok? You would be totally ineffective and might as well be benched for another DPS. Smart heals are extremely ineffective on the fight, plus EF is exponentially better due to the fight mechanics.

[Tyranader]

Malkorok? You would be totally ineffective and might as well be benched for another DPS. Smart heals are extremely ineffective on the fight, plus EF is exponentially better due to the fight mechanics.

What about the other fights?

Also according to AMR in Reforge only mode if I Set my Spirit and Haste Weight to 0.1 so it reforges out of it. It reforges the spirit into crit if. But if I put the Haste back to its original Value I have about 6.5k Haste.

Which one should use use for SH? Spirit to Crit or Spirit to Haste assuming you cant reforge that piece to mastery?

Really All I am gaining is 0.04 mastery and a bunch of haste which you are saying is over rated in 25...

And I just asked anyway and If I have to Reforge for Malkorok I would have to port out and the RL isn't too happy with that and as a Trial I don't wanna piss him off.

I just don't believe loosing 4k Spirit for 0.04% Mastery and a ton of haste gives more benefit if haste is overrated in 25 mans and give up all that regen for it.

EDIT: If I reforge completely out of spirit on all my gear I actually loose Mastery and let it reforge into crit instead of haste.

[bouchbagfett]

Haste has value! It is not overrated. Mastery > Haste for SH but it still has value.

You are trying to be optimal for two specs that have different optimal gearings. You just have to pick what you want to do. Maximize one spec or the other, change mid raid, or pick middle ground. You just have to pick, you can't have it all.

[nightfalls]

I just don't believe loosing 4k Spirit for 0.04% Mastery and a ton of haste gives more benefit if haste is overrated in 25 mans and give up all that regen for it.

You know I can explain more, but perhaps you should spend some time reading discussion threads. I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall right now.

[Tyranader]

Haste has value! It is not overrated. Mastery > Haste for SH but it still has value.

You are trying to be optimal for two specs that have different optimal gearings. You just have to pick what you want to do. Maximize one spec or the other, change mid raid, or pick middle ground. You just have to pick, you can't have it all.

The middle ground is 14k Spirit and Fully mastery isn't it? and Switching between Thok and DSoD if im using EF or SH?

You know I can explain more, but perhaps you should spend some time reading discussion threads. I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall right now.

Thanks for the help... I am only trying to wrap my head around this. You yourself said Haste is Over-rated so why drop all my spirit into it while also gaining so little mastery when having 14k allows me to play both?

[nightfalls]

You yourself said Haste is Over-rated so why drop all my spirit into it while also gaining so little mastery when having 14k allows me to play both?

I said Haste is overrated for EF (by "over" I am meaning talking about breakpoints). I did not say anything else about Haste. Haste is generally considered the second stat to Mastery, for both specs.

If you don't need the Spirit (you don't) then it's a waste. You're wasting 4,000 throughput stats, completely. That's already enough said. If you're unable to wrap your head around that, perhaps you shouldn't be in a heroic group?

Get out of your middle ground mentality, you're in a heroic guild. Do I tell my raid leader I can't be assed spending gold, so I'm going to be halfway between arcane and fire stats? I don't want to reforge so I'll sit halfway tank dodge/parry and halfway DPS crit/haste stats?

[Tyranader]

I said Haste is overrated for EF (by "over" I am meaning talking about breakpoints). I did not say anything else about Haste. Haste is generally considered the second stat to Mastery, for both specs.

If you don't need the Spirit (you don't) then it's a waste. You're wasting 4,000 throughput stats, completely. That's already enough said. If you're unable to wrap your head around that, perhaps you shouldn't be in a heroic group?

Get out of your middle ground mentality, you're in a heroic guild. Do I tell my raid leader I can't be assed spending gold, so I'm going to be halfway between arcane and fire stats? I don't want to reforge so I'll sit halfway tank dodge/parry and halfway DPS crit/haste stats?

I only have 5 Pieces of Unreforged gear. I could reforge out of spirit on those 5 into haste and drop down too 11957 Spirit. But with my Bracers that are Spirit and Crit if I reforge the crit to Mastery I gain more than reforging the Spirit to Mastery. what do I do then?

Do I reforge all the pieces that are Spirit and Haste/Crit into Mastery and the Spirit and Mastery Pieces into Haste and Mastery?

EDIT: also another issue is the Raid Leader doesn't like Reforging is we cant use the Yak when we are not on a break so that makes Reforging for some fights pretty hard.

I think I get it. I want as low spirit as possible with SH and I want to use Thok's Trinket right? and on fights like Immerseus, Nazgrim, Malkorok and Maybe Paragons I want to run Eternal Flame I don't reforge out of spirit?

and when running SH I want to reforge off whatever stat gives me the most mastery so if Spirit gives more mastery reforge out of that and if say, Crit will give me more reforge out of that?

Do I want a Haste Cap with EF on those fights or not? I'm guessing no right?

[nightfalls]

I feel like we are going in circles here. If you absolutely can't reforge even in 5 seconds when the Yak is out when you are convening for a boss, perhaps you need a new raid leader. Or you should suck it up and just go EF for every fight if you're unwilling to do that. I'll say a raid leader that says "no reforging" is not likely to see efficient boss kills, that's a fucking recipe for misery.

The stat priority has been said many, MANY times.

EF: Spirit (comfortable) > Mastery > Haste > Crit
SH: Mastery > Haste > Spirit (comfortable) > Crit

Generally your EF comfort level of spirit will be reached by prioritizing it below Mastery but above Haste (or roughly equal to Haste). Your SH comfort level can be found by prioritizing it either slightly above, equal, or below Crit. All of this of course depends on your gear level.

[Lucyrotten]

Ok, I'm going to break this down for you:

SH doesn't like spirit very much, it loves mastery long time

EF loves spirit, thinks mastery is fabulous and gives a solid nod to haste.

In order to maximize your performance in either spec you have to commit to it. You can't half ass either otherwise you lose what makes them good. SH is not good because LoD spam is amazing. It's good because you can dump a shitload of spirit into mastery. If you don't feed EF enough spirit you lose throughput because have to throttle to maintain some level of output or you OOM and become useless.

What every single 25m heroic pally I know that's preferring SH to EF does is runs a full mastery build for every fight, ports out after Nazgrim, reforges to spirit for EF, does Malkorok, ports out again and reforges then comes back. It's common, it's expected, no hc raid leader should have a problem with it. If you're unsure, tell him what's going on and double check that it's fine. What you'll find as you climb up the ladder is that fight to fight min/maxing becomes way more common. We have people swapping in and out and hearthing to get ported back all night and literally no one even pays attention.

[Tyranader]

I feel like we are going in circles here. If you absolutely can't reforge even in 5 seconds when the Yak is out when you are convening for a boss, perhaps you need a new raid leader. Or you should suck it up and just go EF for every fight if you're unwilling to do that. I'll say a raid leader that says "no reforging" is not likely to see efficient boss kills, that's a fucking recipe for misery.

The stat priority has been said many, MANY times.

EF: Spirit (comfortable) > Mastery > Haste > Crit
SH: Mastery > Haste > Spirit (comfortable) > Crit

Generally your EF comfort level of spirit will be reached by prioritizing it below Mastery but above Haste (or roughly equal to Haste). Your SH comfort level can be found by prioritizing it either slightly above, equal, or below Crit. All of this of course depends on your gear level.

Ok that makes sense.

Ok, I'm going to break this down for you:

SH doesn't like spirit very much, it loves mastery long time

EF loves spirit, thinks mastery is fabulous and gives a solid nod to haste.

In order to maximize your performance in either spec you have to commit to it. You can't half ass either otherwise you lose what makes them good. SH is not good because LoD spam is amazing. It's good because you can dump a shitload of spirit into mastery. If you don't feed EF enough spirit you lose throughput because have to throttle to maintain some level of output or you OOM and become useless.

What every single 25m heroic pally I know that's preferring SH to EF does is runs a full mastery build for every fight, ports out after Nazgrim, reforges to spirit for EF, does Malkorok, ports out again and reforges then comes back. It's common, it's expected, no hc raid leader should have a problem with it. If you're unsure, tell him what's going on and double check that it's fine. What you'll find as you climb up the ladder is that fight to fight min/maxing becomes way more common. We have people swapping in and out and hearthing to get ported back all night and literally no one even pays attention.

So it is just literally that fight where SH is soo bad that I need to switch to EF? If so that shouldn't be an issue at all if its that one fight. What I think the RL meant was poting in and out for every fight.

So lets just make sure I've got this right...

Selfless Healer - I want to maximise Mastery > Everything.

Eternal Flame its Reforge back into Spirit then Mastery. For Malkorok?

Now I just Wanna know if I got this right...

For EF I wanna use DSoD and Sha Trinket

For SH I wanna use Thok and Sha Trinket?

and what do I do about items that are Spirit and Haste/Crit...

http://www.wowhead.com/item=105791/b...tioning-belief

I gain more mastery by reforging the Crit but Keep the Spirit.

[Lucyrotten]

That's what I do, ymmv.

Edit: If you're progressing on a boss when you need to be optimal something or other, then set that as your primary thing and work around it for whatever fights you need. Early in Paragons progression I ran hybrid EF build and was less than awesome on Thok since I didn't have as much mastery. Gear for the fight you're working on, reforge around for farm bosses.

[Clrg]

http://www.wowhead.com/item=105791/b...tioning-belief

Reforge the crit.

[Tyranader]

Okay so when I run SH I will have 10372 Spirit, 15181 Mastery and 7209 Haste. with My current Gear and with Eternal Flame I will have 14283 Spirit, 15170 Mastery and 2882 Haste.

That looks right I think. If it's only Malkorok I have to run EF on thats fine.

What about Trinkets for SH and EF?

Sorry I don't know why I was having so much trouble understanding this, I just guess I got too caught up in numbers and stuff and was getting all confused.

[Lucyrotten]

I use DSoD and PPP for everything. Just grabbed a HWF Thok trinket last night so might play around with that.