[Holy] Fix my Heals!

[Ceresc]

He/she does fine.
Heck even the lv90 talent thingy that I mentioned happened only last week:
http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/blee...egaera-10N-501

I won't start to search for minor errors in someones logs who regularly ends up in the top 5-10%. Duh.

I had reforged everything to haste for Heroic Tortos to see if that would help throughput any, basically just messing around with stats. Then totally zoned and forgot to reforge back to mastery. That one thing screwed up my entire focus plus, I just kept thinking, "I'll never live this down". Plus, heads were going down so fast that my Hammer timing was off

[Lackjester]

I had reforged everything to haste for Heroic Tortos to see if that would help throughput any, basically just messing around with stats. Then totally zoned and forgot to reforge back to mastery. That one thing screwed up my entire focus plus, I just kept thinking, "I'll never live this down". Plus, heads were going down so fast that my Hammer timing was off

Which fights do you (or your guild) struggle most on?

[Ceresc]

I can look to see if there are any specific extra things you could do to help prevent the wipes on H-Consorts though.

That would be very helpful. I feel like I'm pulling teeth on that fight. We tried 3 healing and we just don't have the dps so it's down to 2 healing but my healing feels very sluggish. Any help with that would be very nice, thank you.

Which fights do you (or your guild) struggle most on?

HTwins is my concern atm.

[Deleted]

I think lackjester is trolling by throwing at us every single argument used by beginners to justify their race on meters without a complete understanding of healing in a raid-wise matter....


The problem is, he is barking so loud and try so hard to be convincing that people seeking for help are just confused..

Please, for those who ask for help in this thread : trust experimented people voidspark, lucyrotten and such. For your own sake

As for Crescec on your HTwins wipe the main reason your raid dies is because Suen is not properly tanked.
160k per tick for nuclear inferno is clearly above the average 80-90k you should have. I'd wage it's due to tanks not placing Suen near an ice comet to diminish stacks, or maybe ranged players making ice comets disappear by standing in 8yard of it and being hit by Light of day.

So tanks need to place suen near the ice comet ASAP : they must check for the debuff she gains while being weakened by ice comet. Inferno will hurt for far less.

If you have the bad luck of not having the 2nd ice comet, use the "slow" statue and stack with major raid CDs and personals to survive, it's easily healable if suen has been destacked.

Besides, your tank died of fan of flames : they should swap every 2 debuffs if uncomfortable to take more.

So to manage nuclear inferno : make sure your ranged are at ~20yards from the boss (and NOT max distance, thus having short charges and less delay on Suen's cast : you are much likely to always have both your 1st and 2nd ice comet for the 1st inferno) and everyone is 8yard from each other. AND nobody near the ice comet until inferno is cast! for the tank who needs to place Suen near the comet, simply put the boss between ice and tank.


91k HPS is far enough in terms of raw numbers... my guess by having a wuick overview of your 8th try is that suen's phase isn't managed properly.

Save all the statues for the Suen phase, except maybe cranes that we are used to have on Lu'lin.

Hope this helps and tell me if I spotted your problem for the fight and if you have any question.

Infracted. Mod warnings aren't decorative posts. ~Fhi

[Lackjester]

@metasaigneur: Keep your ad hominems to yourself, please. What's so "special" about those people, anyway? Send me a PM about it or just let it drop -- this is getting ridiculous.

@Ceresc: Some things I've noticed.

1) The other paladin isn't using his Devotion Aura.
2) You appear to be using Glyph of Flash of Light.
3) Sometimes you use too many CDs in a short amount of time, although your CD usage was good on many attempts including your best one.

This might be a good resource if you're unsure about fight mechanics:
http://paladiner.wordpress.com/heroi...twin-consorts/

Infracted for continuing to attempt to derail thread. ~Fhi
How? ~Lackjester

[monikasun88]

I don't feel like your healing is the reason behind your wipes as most of your deaths are not due to healing but rather to people getting nuked by things they should have damage reduction CDs popped for or mechanics not being controlled or executed correctly.

In addition to previous comments about Fan of Flames, your monk tank seems to die a lot to the Fan of Flames which isn't hitting above 2 stacks or anything. He should definitely plan to pop a cooldown for the second stack. Also, nuclear inferno takes like 2-3 seconds to actually start pulsing so as long as your raid is near the comet but not on top of it when it's about to happen, they should have no problem getting in before the first pulse. This prevents people from prematurely destroying it.

In terms of healing one thing I could recommend is to get a bit more out of your tier 6 talent. It's frusturating to heal with the corrupted healing debuff so if your beast of nightmares tank is staying around Lu'lin or the tank tanking Lu'lin (which it seems that it might be) then perhaps you could go Light's Hammer for the indirect healing rather than prism. It will also be really good for 1-2 of the nuclear infernos. Also, since you're slightly undergeared or if not undergeared at least not overgeared like most guilds are today for it, you'll probably end up getting more inferno phases which will make Light's Hammer more useful for your setup. My raid had 1 tank (monk) who just rolls around the whole time taunting the boss before beast of nightmares and kiting Suen, hence he's usually outside of the melee group and I can heal without fear. This removed my need to beacon swap for the first phase which was nice. Replace your FoL glyph with the Beacon glyph IMO as you'll still need to swap quick in phase 2 and 3.

You have a lot of wipes to corrupted healing, people running in to spores repeatedly, some wipes with the # of Lurkers getting out of control but I think you're at the point where you won't make those mistakes as much. I think if your guild can go through the inferno stage more cleanly with people using more personal cooldowns during large damage phases such as star or inferno and your tanks quickly pulling to the comets (but not too close) and the raid's positioning before nuclear inferno, you should be pretty close to a kill.

[nightfalls]

7:46 and 5:51 wipes at the end:

The initial deaths (besides the monk's death which was not logged, possibly due to the logger being phased?) are due to ice comets hitting your raid while they are low. Among other things (such as tanks lowering stacks properly) one thing you and your disc priest can do to mitigate the damage is assign a group for each of you to heal. Focus mainly on that group and keeping them nearly topped (due to comets) while only helping with the other group if needed. The druid should probably be assigned to spot heals and tanks (basically helping out wherever is needed and watching everybody).

You should use a talent other than Stay of Execution. Your Prot Paladin can also help out the raid healing with HPrism or LH. Prism should be used on CD if you take it (5:51 attempt), and should always be used on Suen when she is up (same attempt).

Since Suen is immune to all damage during Nuclear Inferno channels, HPrism cannot be used then, and your hybrid DPS instead of casting deflected lightning bolts should be helping heal.

Overall the 7:46 attempt doesn't look too bad, if you can solve the issue of your raid bleeding out (and tanking issue with Suen) you should have a kill soon.

[Ryouji]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...d%C3%BD/simple

I'm a 542 Holy / 530 Retribution Paladin
World of Logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i...one/?enc=kills

I react very quickly making it easy to play Holy & a healing class role, but as far as 100% knowing which heal to use when is what is troubling me. This is mostly having to do with having 0% raid experience all of Cata and t14 going into Heroic TOT. I did 12/12N and 4/13H as Retribution before making the full swap to Holy roughly almost 3 months ago. I feel that I've caught on quickly in terms of Heroic raiding, but know I need drastic improvements when Siege of Orgrimmar comes out. Also, I'm 10/13H doing Dark Animus / Lei Shen / Ra-Den now so I'm going to probably need to play at the highest level needed.

Another issue I'm conflicted with is my gem choices. Yes, I probably will make the switch back to Spirit for Seige of Orgrimmar. I don't really have an issue with 13k Spirit in progression fights now. Has lot to do with the current raid roster & healing roster being more geared than we would be at the beginning of the Heroic Progression pf Throne of Thunder.

I'm a long time raiding Retribution Paladin (Vanilla & BC up until 3.0 I was Holy, then from 3.0 up up until Heroic Lich King I was Retribution / Prot) that took a full time hiatus a month before Cata up until January of this year (towards the ass end of t14 progression). I learn quickly, and like high level raiding.

[Clrg]

@Ryouji

In my opinion you need to use more eternal flame and less light of dawn, also use more your healing cd.

[Rayocell]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...d%C3%BD/simple

I'm a 542 Holy / 530 Retribution Paladin
World of Logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i...one/?enc=kills

I react very quickly making it easy to play Holy & a healing class role, but as far as 100% knowing which heal to use when is what is troubling me. This is mostly having to do with having 0% raid experience all of Cata and t14 going into Heroic TOT. I did 12/12N and 4/13H as Retribution before making the full swap to Holy roughly almost 3 months ago. I feel that I've caught on quickly in terms of Heroic raiding, but know I need drastic improvements when Siege of Orgrimmar comes out. Also, I'm 10/13H doing Dark Animus / Lei Shen / Ra-Den now so I'm going to probably need to play at the highest level needed.

Another issue I'm conflicted with is my gem choices. Yes, I probably will make the switch back to Spirit for Seige of Orgrimmar. I don't really have an issue with 13k Spirit in progression fights now. Has lot to do with the current raid roster & healing roster being more geared than we would be at the beginning of the Heroic Progression pf Throne of Thunder.

I'm a long time raiding Retribution Paladin (Vanilla & BC up until 3.0 I was Holy, then from 3.0 up up until Heroic Lich King I was Retribution / Prot) that took a full time hiatus a month before Cata up until January of this year (towards the ass end of t14 progression). I learn quickly, and like high level raiding.

I'm looking at your H Megaera kill, at that parse seems to be particularly bad compared to the rest. Here's my recent kill for comparison.

Two things stood out to me by looking at the parses: your talent choices for the fight and your CD usage.

Talent choices...you are using Holy Prism on this fight. This is one of the few fights in ToT where Light's Hammer is actually better. Use it during rampages.

Also, I would have gone with Holy Avenger instead of Divine Purpose on this fight. Actually, I think HA is better on all fights now than DP. You got the equivalent of 27 HP with your 9 DP procs. My kill was 20s shorter than yours, but I generated 30 more HP. You can also use HA during rampages, whereas you can't control when Divine Purpose procs (which it didn't proc during rampage at all for you).

I would space our your CD usage instead of using both at the same time. For example, wings on first and fourth Rampage, Holy Avenger on second and fifth (with GoAK), and then Divine Favor on third and sixth.

What were your healing assignments like? For us, we have a dedicated healer on each tank, plus a floater that gets the rest of the raid or a tank if one of the dedicated healers has to run for ice beams. I'm on the tank that's on green, so I'm on him full-time while beacon is on the other tank. I try to get some of the raid members with EF if they're in range and the tank isn't in danger of dying, however.

5.4 will change how we heal. Check out the PTR thread for more info. For now, you seem to be doing well. LoD generally isn't a good choice as it doesn't heal for enough. I would rather spend the HP on EF. You seem to be doing pretty well with EF uptime...set up your raid frames so you can see who has EF and IH rolling and you can have a 95%+ uptime.

For gems, the +60 int socket bonuses are fairly weak...I'd replace those with 320 mastery gems.

Looks fine to me otherwise!

[luc54]

@ryouji. Use holy avenger instead of DP for the fights for extra CD. It's very good for lot of fights for pre hotting or reactive healing after damage. Try to combine it with other cooldowns and it will be awesome. Also as pointed out before, try to use EF more. EF can be used to pre shield people and keep up the mastery shield for 45 sec. Also consider using light's hammer instead of prism for some fights like megeara and in future deffinetely ra-den when you get there.

For gearing, I think you should get rid of that trash trinket from primo. Despite being hc TF it's use effect is waste and you would be better off with some other trinkets even from previous content. Also using mastery pieces over the 4 set is much more useful. 4 set is pretty worthless especially when considering the bad stats on chest, legs and gloves.

I wouldn't worry too much about the last 3 fights in tot. I guess dark animus might be a bit tough on 10man depending on strategy, but lei shen and ra-den are kinda sneeze fest healing wise till last phases. Lei shen is more about positioning and ra-den will depend on your dpsers killing balls fast. Winds can be annoying in last phase on lei shen as paladin. Ra-den last phase is only about doing your max output till boss dies which should be rather simple. Anyway good luck with 2 of the hardest bosses this tier and the lootboss afterwards.

[Ryouji]

I actually wasn't really paying attention to forums and other sources such as armorying other Paladins to notice about Holy Avenger. I was always against a luck based talent, because sometimes it obviously did well then other times it was pretty low. So I made the swap last night, and read a couple of forums that were relatively updated. I am pretty consistent about my EF uptime to the best of my ability with the CDs. I've always favored Holy Prism, and just never thought about changing it. I knew that Light's Hammer was relatively better on certain fights. That's something I want to get used to do, swapping out my talents to benefit me. I always had Clemency, and I just recently (last night) made the change to Unbreak. Spirit. I haven't tested that myself either.

As for the trinket, this is my best choice in terms of secondary trinket. I'm going to make an attempt to do H: Tsulong to get the trinket from there in the meantime. As soon as I can scoop up the Horridon or Lei Shen heroic trinket I will.

My gear is as good as it can get with what has dropped so far. I use my tier pieces because nothing else has dropped.

[Rayocell]

I actually wasn't really paying attention to forums and other sources such as armorying other Paladins to notice about Holy Avenger. I was always against a luck based talent, because sometimes it obviously did well then other times it was pretty low. So I made the swap last night, and read a couple of forums that were relatively updated. I am pretty consistent about my EF uptime to the best of my ability with the CDs. I've always favored Holy Prism, and just never thought about changing it. I knew that Light's Hammer was relatively better on certain fights. That's something I want to get used to do, swapping out my talents to benefit me. I always had Clemency, and I just recently (last night) made the change to Unbreak. Spirit. I haven't tested that myself either.

As for the trinket, this is my best choice in terms of secondary trinket. I'm going to make an attempt to do H: Tsulong to get the trinket from there in the meantime. As soon as I can scoop up the Horridon or Lei Shen heroic trinket I will.

My gear is as good as it can get with what has dropped so far. I use my tier pieces because nothing else has dropped.

Yep, talents are easy to swap. I switch between all of the lvl 60 talents, depending on the fight. Unbreakable Spirit is great, especially since it can potentially reduce the CD of your bubble by half. Hand of Purity is good on fights that have a DoT (unless the DoT basically ignores it...you still get the 10% DR). Clemency when you don't have a pally tank and you can cheese the fight with abusing HoP.

I'm in the same boat with the trinket, but I wouldn't waste time going back to TOES unless your guild doesn't mind. It's definitely one of the worst trinkets this tier, but you shouldn't sweat it.

4pc T15 isn't bad for 10m, as you generally have less healers and your beacon will heal for more overall. If you have EF rolling on everyone, it does way more healing to the beacon target than you think.

[Deleted]

We're progressing on Primordius heroic right now (we're 7/13hc). I am fairly new to the guild and playing a tank, as opposed to my usual favorite of healing. To my big surprise, I noticed all of our healers using spirit flasks for a lot of heroic fights.

Considering I'm a big fan of optimization (and max value) this seemed extremely strange to me, seeing the 1:1 tradeoff from intellect (I mean gemming for straight spirit and ignoring socket bonuses, which is not advisable, is still more efficient of a tradeoff). Both healers have around 16k spirit unbuffed and both have the heroic horridon and megaera trinkets (the priest doesn't have the legendary meta though). This especially surprised me for the paladin, since she has the legendary meta and I thought paladins weren't so mana intensive.

Here are our logs from last night: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k...ses&boss=69017

The druid is only off-spec healing occasionally (we tried 3-healing towards the end of the night), so it's more understandable since he doesn't have good trinkets. But I just couldn't wrap my head around both our main healers using spirit flasks on most heroic fights, so that's why I wanted your opinions. Should I try to convince them to change, or is still using spirit flasks (and food!!) reasonable that late in the expansion.

PS. Not posting armory links since that's apparently not allowed for characters you don't own (yeah, I read the FAQ :P). We're on EU-Burning Legion.

[Hypasonic]

First things first, you say you're progressing on a certain boss (this one being primordius) basically I'm not surprised they are using spirit flasks. I always used them on progression fights, exceptions being Lei Shen. Sure, I could easily have used an int flask but it just felt "safer" using a spirit flask. I would say though that if the holy pala and disc is using the trinket from megaera then I I don't know what to say really, as it's just such a bad trinket in any sense of the word and is reserved purely for resto shamans in 25m who act as mana batteries.

If they don't have the valor for the valor trinket then yes they SHOULD be using an intellect trinket as 16k spirit is just overkill.

One final note, if you;re 2 healing primordius progression then sure spirit might be the better choice but with the item upgrades etc available now I don't think its worth it.

[Rayocell]

This should probably be in the "Fix My Heals" thread...anyways...

If you're still progressing, spirit allows you to recover from messing up when you're casting different heals than you normally would. Once you learn the fight and your strat, you can trade off. I still use spirit flasks as it would allow me some buffer if my raid messes up or something and I need to use different heals. If there were a mastery flask, I would use it, as that's worth more than intellect.

Anyways, critique on your pally:

Gear and Talents:

• Not using Eternal Flame or Holy Avenger. Eternal Flame is mandatory. No questions. Level 75 talents, most high-end pallies are taking Holy Avenger since you can control it. Level 90 talents are interchangable, but Holy Prism is better on the fight.
• Glyphs are bad. Should never be using Glyph of Denounce or Glyph of Harsh Words in PvE. At least she should be using Glyph of Divinity.
• Gear - No socket on weapon. Using bad spirit trinket instead of Shado-Pan trink. At least she has Horridon's (/jealous)

On the logs (looking at longest attempt - try #8):

• Not using Holy Shock on CD. Missed out on potentially 9 HP = 3 EFs.
• Level 45 talent usage. Sacred Shield has pitiful uptime. Ideally, Cessi should be using Eternal Flame and tossing out 3HP EFs to the raid to heal and to stack mastery bubbles. LoD does not heal nearly as much as EF. Mastery is awesome, and EF lets it stack, even if it's overhealing.
• It just seems like Cessi isn't healing enough at all. IH healing is not where it should be. It should be MUCH higher.

Also, your priest should probably be disc. They're pretty good. Seriously. Even without the legendary meta gem. And even though Atonement is a bit diminished on the fight...she could always attack the Vicious Horror.

We usually 3 heal this fight as that offers more raid stability. I'm still usually near the top, however. No excuse for your pally to be that low.

Also also, what happened during Bloodlust on try #8? Your raid DPS actually went down instead of up.

[nightfalls]

My guild has a strong stigma associated to spirit flask usage. Typically I used spirit flasks at the beginning of this expansion (T14).

You "can" still use them, but at 16k spirit in this part of the tier there's really no reason to. Some times as a paladin also, if you're on a non-melee fight (which makes you far more likely to OOM) one option is to switch to a spirit flask over reforging more spirit if you purposely drop a lot for the later fights in the tier. Primordius due to being able to melee a large amount (when there is no AoE stuff going out) of the time, and "scumbag melee" the rest of the time, is a pretty poor option for a spirit flask.

I don't bother since the fights are so outgeared anyway that I don't need the mana.

PS. Not posting armory links since that's apparently not allowed for characters you don't own (yeah, I read the FAQ :P). We're on EU-Burning Legion.

As far as I know you should be fine if asking for help for a guild member, what they really dislike is you calling out another poster and linking their armory to everyone claiming its them.

Either which way typically if people post for others in a help thread, I'll usually decline to help horrible cases (where a player needs just massive improvement) unless the person comes and posts themselves; in general, I feel messages don't go across so well through 3rd parties.

[Deleted]

Prism is a better bet than hammer for pretty much every encounter in 10's.

They both have very low output for even normal, but I take a touchy feely approach to spirit. If people are dying to burst and the team has their cds worked out then take throughput options, if peeps are dying at the end of the fight because you are on vapour and mana cds are worked out get more spirit. I'm slightly masochistic when it comes to spirit vs throughput but I'm happy to finish a fight on 5-10% mana. Heal efficiently and don't waste casts. Pala's a little biit different due to hopo generation needing empty casts to some degree, to get EF's and to make mastery count, lod is a situational use of hopo only. I think their problem is deeper than stats

I don't know anything much about priests.

I won't critique the druid, beyond swiftmend use, they need to read up

[Deleted]

I'm sorry if this was in the wrong place. Got kinda carried away.

And to clarify, primordius attempts are when I realized this spirit phenomenon. For the past 1.5 weeks (since I started logging our clears) not a single intellect flask has been used by our healers

Ok, so back on track: First thank you for your concise analyses, they've been really useful for me since I have no experience with paladin healing whatsoever and I'm not confident with the stat weights.

Could you give some numbers as to with how much spirit you run (without flask) and to what you think a decent amount of healing should be for this fight? If I understand you correctly you gem/reforge for the maximum amount of mastery. If you could you would even reforge some int to mastery. But because you can't, you reforge everything else to mastery (at the expense of not being able to reforge to spirit), so you would sometimes use a spirit flask to compensate. That's at least what I got from Rayocell's post. Is that correct?

My problem is that currently both healers use glorious stats so they value (ignoring stamina) 80int+80spirit>200spirit enchant, or 80int>120spi. Same goes for multiple sockets where they meet socket bonus with hybrid gems (as a particular example in gloves they choose 140int>160spi). Using spirit flask is valuing 1000spi>1000int which makes no mathematical sense. I'm just trying to find any explanation that would make my logic wrong.

As for the fight analysis, again thank you it's been very useful. I'll definitely look into it (especially the mistimed heroisms, we normally try to do it when melees have 45sec left on mutation, but apparently sometimes it wasn't timed properly).

[Rayocell]

My last Primordius kill I did around 90k hps with a resto shaman, resto druid, and prot pally (they do insane amounts of healing right now). I would have expected your pally to be higher due to the higher gear level compared to me (543 vs 539) and the fact that you were 2 healing it.

Spirit is a tricky thing because it may not make mathematical sense to take the spirit flask over the int flask, but you need spirit in order to sustain healing, and that depends on the fight and your healing rotation. Are you using a mana-efficient or mana-inefficient rotation? Are you tank healing or raid healing? Is it possible to melee to get mana back via Seal of Insight? How much running around do you need to do? The healers need to ask the question "Am I running out of mana?" If so, why? Legitimately healing hard? Spirit flask makes sense here, especially on progression. Just messing up or using the incorrect rotation? Flasks won't save you there...someone needs to fix what they're doing.

If you need the regen, take the spirit flask. Otherwise, use the int flask. It's not cut and dry like DPS and tanks.

For reference, I've had shitty luck with trinkets and I would happily drop my spirit trinket for Lightning-Imbued Challice or (more preferably) Horridon's trink. 14k unbuffed with 33% mastery (also had bad luck with healing plate drops, so about half of my pieces are haste/spirit). If you have Horridon's trink, 12k should be a reasonable amount of spirit to have. The trinket proc is about equal to the spirit trinkets of the tier, usually more, and provides better throughput stats. If it ever drops for me, I might reconsider switching to int flasks.