1. #2401
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusAetius View Post
    The int proc, on the other hand, increases your spell crit by a non-insignificant amount (5-10%, IIRC), which arguably makes it even stronger than Thok's in high-vengeance situations.
    The intproc doesn't work as a tank. It states in the tooltip, that it's only active for healer roles.
    Doesn't really decrease it's value though if you don't have the heroic thok trinket. Infact, if you get the heroic thok trinket I would just use both in most situations, the HC WF sha trinket is about 1100 mastery and 1600 haste for me atm + the crit bonus iirc.

    Though I got a question - is there a problem with the arsenal atm? Because I'm at 21602 haste there but only at 21067 ingame. Or is that a problem with haste calculation with double AMP trinkets? o.O

    Edit: Lol okay - if you want to go with two AMP trinkets you will have to equip the one with higher ilvl first and then the other, then you will get higher stats. Lolwut.
    Last edited by mmoc2d47959902; 2014-01-18 at 10:59 PM.

  2. #2402
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    Quote Originally Posted by ot4ku-mh View Post
    The intproc doesn't work as a tank. It states in the tooltip, that it's only active for healer roles.
    Doesn't really decrease it's value though if you don't have the heroic thok trinket. Infact, if you get the heroic thok trinket I would just use both in most situations, the HC WF sha trinket is about 1100 mastery and 1600 haste for me atm + the crit bonus iirc.
    Blergh, my bad. I seem to recall it having been able to proc for tanks on the PTR, and somehow managed to forget that they fixed that.

    At any rate, you're still taking the amp trinkets for the amp factor, not for the procs. The procs are barely noticeable at heroic levels of vengeance, but the sheer stat gain from any kind of amp trinket is amazing.

  3. #2403
    Stood in the Fire Weightlifter's Avatar
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    This has probably been asked and answered 1000 times, but is it possible to have too much haste, or does it remain the best stat forever, no matter how much you have?

  4. #2404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    This has probably been asked and answered 1000 times, but is it possible to have too much haste, or does it remain the best stat forever, no matter how much you have?
    Useless fun facts with no real practical use inc

    Between 50-80% haste is not that good, and 80% is obviously not reachable. The only increase you will see between 50-80% (well about at 70-75% you could get more benefits) is faster EF/SS ticks, more SoI procs and more melee attack damage, and faster mas res cast

    The highest haste breakpoint is at 637500 haste rating (1 second cd on AS). After that you would gain nothing from haste other than SoI and EF/SS

    Notable hast breakpoints would be 34000 rating as the first real breakpoint after 50%. 42500 rating lowers your J CD down to 3 seconds effectively changing your max hopo rotation to J>CS>X repeat. This is also probably the most important breakpoint as it also lowers your EF tick speed to 1.5s guaranteeing you one EF tick between each boss melee hits regardless of boss swing timer, which is big. 180000 would make sure you get 2 EF ticks between each boss melee hit which is also insane. 53125 rating gives you the CS>J>CS>X rotation for maximum hopo. 85000 rating and you get J>CS repeat for max HoPo. 148750 haste rating gives you the ability to spam CS every GCD. 212500 gives you the ability to spam J every GCD.

    In between all these ratings, there are more subtler breakpoints that allows you to push higher dps. I do not remember than all, there are dozens. Should also be noted that a few % before each breakpoint, it is possible to trade dps for hopo regen or the opposite, trading hopo regen for dps. It depends if the breakpoint is a hopo or a dps breakpoint. So you can see the breakpoints I mentioned as hard break points and there being a scaling soft breakpoint before it the closer you are too it.

    Now all of this is of course completely useless since the first breakpoint of 80% haste, 34000 rating is not reachable. Unless you optimize gear for a boss that gives you +% haste buff like alysrazor or other activities where buffs with +% haste exist like IoT or TI farming. Either of these scenarios seems unlikely.
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2014-01-19 at 02:48 AM.

  5. #2405
    Quote Originally Posted by ot4ku-mh View Post
    The intproc doesn't work as a tank. It states in the tooltip, that it's only active for healer roles.
    Does int even increase the spell crit chance for non-casters? I mean agi doesn't do anything for str classes either.

  6. #2406
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Does int even increase the spell crit chance for non-casters? I mean agi doesn't do anything for str classes either.
    Agility gives crit to Str.
    Intellect gives spell crit to Str.

    The numbers are so small though that it is barely noticeable. When I had like 3-4 int pieces on me back in T15 I got about 0.1% spell crit or something like that.

    Trying to find the conversion rates, but seem to have misplaced them somewhere. There has been no talk about agility or intellect for protadins since T14 really . They are abysmal though.
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2014-01-19 at 01:21 PM.

  7. #2407
    10,000 agility gives 1% dodge

  8. #2408
    Stood in the Fire Weightlifter's Avatar
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    So would it be important to get 50% haste before gemming or reforging mastery?

  9. #2409
    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    So would it be important to get 50% haste before gemming or reforging mastery?
    Unless you have the option of reforging a stat on an item that already has haste on it to mastery, yes. So you would reforge the hit rating on a hit/haste item to mastery (or expertise, as the case may be).

  10. #2410
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    So would it be important to get 50% haste before gemming or reforging mastery?
    Depends on you current gear and boss. Hard to say. Most of the time haste is better. There are scenarios where mastery may be better if you are undergeared.

  11. #2411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    So would it be important to get 50% haste before gemming or reforging mastery?
    TBH, having done both 10 and 25 HC (13/14 HC 10-man, 8/14 HC 25), I'd advocate 50% haste, then mastery to 25%, then crit - assuming you ignore tier pieces like Firefly and I both do, you can easily hit 20% raid-buffed crit with a build like this.

    At 50% haste and 25% mastery, SotR is already a full shieldwall, and any more mastery basically just serves to make your EF less efficient on average. Since Thok's is a core prot paladin item, crit is a very strong choice after 25% mastery IMHO, and you will not be less ridiculously survivable for it.

  12. #2412
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Agility gives crit to Str.
    Intellect gives spell crit to Str.

    The numbers are so small though that it is barely noticeable. When I had like 3-4 int pieces on me back in T15 I got about 0.1% spell crit or something like that.

    Trying to find the conversion rates, but seem to have misplaced them somewhere. There has been no talk about agility or intellect for protadins since T14 really . They are abysmal though.
    Purified bindings of Immerseus gives int proc as holy if you melee swing, would that make it better than Thok's if it procs for prot aswell? znow that wouldbe interesting xD

    thx for the info guys!
    Lilaith, resident flamer for Winterfall, holy moderator in Hammer of Wrath.
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  13. #2413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viriel View Post
    Purified bindings of Immerseus gives int proc as holy if you melee swing, would that make it better than Thok's if it procs for prot aswell? znow that wouldbe interesting xD

    thx for the info guys!
    It does not proc for prot, and even if it did it would be far far worse. Intellect is not 100% useless, but str is worth atleast 20 times more than intellect, probably even more. Dont remember the exact numbers, but intellect is just really really bad.

  14. #2414
    Intellect is essentially zero-value for Protection Paladins. The pathetically small amount of Critical Strike Chance from Intellect only affects WoG/EF casts (it might affect Holy Wrath, can't remember) and we don't gain Spell Power from Intellect because of Guarded by the Light.

  15. #2415
    Quote Originally Posted by FlaviusAetius View Post
    TBH, having done both 10 and 25 HC (13/14 HC 10-man, 8/14 HC 25), I'd advocate 50% haste, then mastery to 25%, then crit - assuming you ignore tier pieces like Firefly and I both do, you can easily hit 20% raid-buffed crit with a build like this.

    At 50% haste and 25% mastery, SotR is already a full shieldwall, and any more mastery basically just serves to make your EF less efficient on average. Since Thok's is a core prot paladin item, crit is a very strong choice after 25% mastery IMHO, and you will not be less ridiculously survivable for it.
    Not really a fan of those magical numbers like 25% or 50%. In the end it's just in your head.
    Overall the likelihood of having to make the choice between haste and crit/mastery is very small since equipping either 4p or malkorok trinket makes the ilvl requirement for 50% haste jump to way over 570.
    Anyways - haste > crit > mastery is legit at a certain gear level (like 565+) or in general for dps checks like the first 2 Siegecrafter adds.

  16. #2416
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    It does not proc for prot, and even if it did it would be far far worse. Intellect is not 100% useless, but str is worth atleast 20 times more than intellect, probably even more. Dont remember the exact numbers, but intellect is just really really bad.
    I was talking about the spellcaster dps trinket, which does proc for other specs(it works for holy paladins for instance), but thanks again for clearing it up! My search for Thok's tail continues, and untill then the sha trink for the amp will have to do.
    Lilaith, resident flamer for Winterfall, holy moderator in Hammer of Wrath.
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  17. #2417
    Stood in the Fire Weightlifter's Avatar
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    Could something like this be effective if the player is good at timing active mitigation, or is that just a troll build?

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Shiki/advanced

  18. #2418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weightlifter View Post
    Could something like this be effective if the player is good at timing active mitigation, or is that just a troll build?

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Shiki/advanced
    Both yes and no. Nothing wrong with a mastery build, but the way he has done it is just stupid. 17 expertise and rocking expertise gems ftw.

  19. #2419
    Mastery, while being less useful overall due to the lack of consistency and dps, is still a very good build. I was able to tank some heroic SoO stuff with an ilvl 540 paladin simply because of proper Holy Avenger use and only tanking when I needed to. Mastery gets stronger the less you are tanking, because having Holy Avenger's uptime higher for the duration of when you tank means Mastery's overall involvement of mitigation is more consistent. I wouldn't actually gear for mastery on every fight, but it's still great.

  20. #2420
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fouton View Post
    Mastery, while being less useful overall due to the lack of consistency and dps, is still a very good build. I was able to tank some heroic SoO stuff with an ilvl 540 paladin simply because of proper Holy Avenger use and only tanking when I needed to. Mastery gets stronger the less you are tanking, because having Holy Avenger's uptime higher for the duration of when you tank means Mastery's overall involvement of mitigation is more consistent. I wouldn't actually gear for mastery on every fight, but it's still great.
    The problem with the mastery build is that it is simply to easy to tank this content. The first 10 heroic bosses in SoO is easily tanked with 520-530 ilvl. Thok and Siegecrafter is easy with 540 ilvl. It is not until Paragons that a tank really needs some gear. That is why running a mastery build is not really needed.

    With 540 ilvl I just ran the standard hit>haste>exp>mastery>stam with 1 stamina trinket on some fights for the first 11 heroic bosses. For Siegecrafter and Paragons I opted for hit>haste>mastery>expertise>stam with more emphasis on stamina on Paragons. I was using the same for Garrosh until I realised what a weak boss Garrosh is compared to Paragons so it made me revert back into hit>haste>exp for the dps.

    The mastery build is definately viable and useful. In fact it is the best survival build for several bosses. The problem is just that it is not needed unless you are in like 520 ilvl for heroic content, the bosses hit too weak for our current gear.

    Also, I disagree that mastery is the most useful with Holy Avenger, that is more likely to leave you dead as you will have too much downtime when your HA is down. HA in general has been very lackluster in SoO to be honest. DP is in my opinion much better choice for a mastery build, and in SoO in general. Only real use I found for HA was bursting down Siegecrafter adds. It is pretty solid choice for Thok aswell but I opted for DP to be able to EF the raid more as tank survivability was not an issue.

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