[Prot] Fix my Tanking!

[Brummie]

I guess i just don't get it, in my eyes unless you are dying to like a 6k overkill (never happens right?), whats the point of having the stam enchant. I can understand it at the start of a tier cause u gear slightly different untill u know the fights, but at this stage of the tier where everything is on farm and u out gear the content it just seems u might as well not have an enchant at all on ur chest cause the stam is just wasted. Answer me this, u got ur 4 set, u got ur 50% haste, do you use stam flask or strength flask?, and if u was'nt using noodle kart food, would u be using the stam 300 food or the strength 300 food?

[Jellospally]

Neither stam flask or str flask or stam food or str food.

Been using 750 haste, 2250 armor, 200 haste food since the start of T15.

Stam is still useful on bosses like Solo tank Thok/Malk. If you hit veng cap ever stam is more dps than almost any stat. 1 stam is like 22ap if pushing veng cap. That is a lot of dps. Granted for the other fights its w/e but I would rather have 300 stam enchant than 80str 80stam because str is worthless hence why the socket bonuses of str we don't go for.

[Pickwickman]

I guess i just don't get it, in my eyes unless you are dying to like a 6k overkill (never happens right?), whats the point of having the stam enchant. I can understand it at the start of a tier cause u gear slightly different untill u know the fights, but at this stage of the tier where everything is on farm and u out gear the content it just seems u might as well not have an enchant at all on ur chest cause the stam is just wasted. Answer me this, u got ur 4 set, u got ur 50% haste, do you use stam flask or strength flask?, and if u was'nt using noodle kart food, would u be using the stam 300 food or the strength 300 food?

Haste and armor elixers. Hundreds of them. With vengeance as it is, you go for secondaries.

[Deleted]

Haste and armor elixir always.

[Nillo]

I guess i just don't get it, in my eyes unless you are dying to like a 6k overkill (never happens right?), whats the point of having the stam enchant.

Well you can't look at stuff like that and say 6k overkill, because that's obviously not gonna happen - you need to look at the tradeoff.
And while 220 stamina may not be all that impressive 80 strength is pretty much useless.
After all that's about
~ 0.4% more hp
vs
< 0.1% more attackpower (more like 0.05% on any boss that actually deals damage)

[MerinPally]

You can't compare the possible connotations (i.e only beneficial in an overkill situation) - you can only compare what is always there. When you weigh them up against each other, stam comes out ahead.

[Moussaka]

Did someone already thought of replacing the sta/dodge for str/crit shoulders/pants patches ?
Well it would be for the crit part only I guess.

[Deleted]

You can't compare the possible connotations (i.e only beneficial in an overkill situation) - you can only compare what is always there. When you weigh them up against each other, stam comes out ahead.

I would not say that I completely agree. Imagine a situation where your character became a righteous mutated feral bear of the light paladin with 20 million health. Any additional stamina you would get for gear would be practically useless. This mean (which should be obvious) that the value of stamina changes depending on your current gear, skill and progress.

I do agree with you though that judging stamina on overkill situations is moronic. Lets say you have 700k or 1200k life and substain a 600k hit. If you drop to 15% health after a big hit or 50% health. the healers are more likely to use more heals on you when you drop to 15%, which in turn leads to less heals on the raid potentially resulting in deaths elsewhere. In neither situation did your health pool limit your survival as you did not die from the attacks, but it affects your healers response and your own.

The main goal for me as a tank has always been to reach that point where the healers do not need to focus you at all. There are three levels of heals.

1. Direct heals, this includes anything single targeted at you, such as a Divine Light, Healing Touch etc. In this category I would also put any targeted CDs such as pain suppresion/life cocoon etc presuming they were not planned, i.e. I would not count them if they were used on you when soaking Malkoroks blood rage, but I would count them here if they were used because you were close to dying on part of a fight where you should not need it.

2. Expected tank heals, with these I mean stuff that the healers target on you, but does not really require healing attention. I would the regular hots such as Lifebloom in this category, the occational PW:S, beacon of light etc, just the regular shit that the healers throw around when nothing else to do. I also count planned CDs here, as I defined above.

3. Passive heals, ground AEs, smart heals etc. Anything not targeted at you specifically.

In my opinion, the first goal of any tank should be to remove category 1 completely, and then work on reducing heals recieved from category 2 to the minimum. If you recieved a single heal from the first category, in my opinion you failed as a <paladin> tank (or your healers fail at healing and dont know what spells to use).
If you are even considering moving defensive stats into offensive stats before you got category 1 solved, you are doing it wrong.

Once you reduced category 2 a bit though, I completely see the thinking of +80 str > 220 stamina as a viable way of thinking, but as I have not tanked SoO in so long, such thinking is just outside of my view of tanking. I was never near that point where I could make such a choice.

It is also the matter of defining when does stamina lose its value? That is an individual question revolving mostly around how good you are at tanking, but also a bit how good your raid is. My personal comfortzone health limits for 10 man was

700k for 10/14H (could probably go down to 600k or less but never tried that)
800k for Thok and Siegecrafter H, Thok could probably go lower
1000k Paragons, I was in mid 950s when I did it, but it was really really uncomfortable. It is for sure doable in lower, but would not want it.
I did not really try Garrosh at lower healths since I already had the health for Paragon, Garrosh is a kitten compared to that, I would say around 800k for Garrosh if you are not soaking annihlates, 900k if you are. But since you already killed Paragons you should be way over health for Garrosh.

After those points I really felt like stamina started to lose value to me. Still, I would not consider trading 220 sta for 80 str unless I was about 200k health over those limits I just mentioned, it just seems like such a small trade off.

[Brummie]

To say moronic is a tad harsh Firefly, i asked the question because i gem pure haste in every slot (including helm). So i figgure that if i'm happy to lose the stam socket bonus from helm then why bother enchanting stam on chest. I know i'm not the only pala that goes haste gem in helm, so i figgured that if pala's are happy to lose 220 stam for 160 haste then why bother taking the stam chest enchant, the 2 contradict each other imo.

[Kantalope]

To say moronic is a tad harsh Firefly, i asked the question because i gem pure haste in every slot (including helm). So i figgure that if i'm happy to lose the stam socket bonus from helm then why bother enchanting stam on chest. I know i'm not the only pala that goes haste gem in helm, so i figgured that if pala's are happy to lose 220 stam for 160 haste then why bother taking the stam chest enchant, the 2 contradict each other imo.

Because haste is survivability AND damage. Strength is just... meh.

[Deleted]

To say moronic is a tad harsh Firefly, i asked the question because i gem pure haste in every slot (including helm). So i figgure that if i'm happy to lose the stam socket bonus from helm then why bother enchanting stam on chest. I know i'm not the only pala that goes haste gem in helm, so i figgured that if pala's are happy to lose 220 stam for 160 haste then why bother taking the stam chest enchant, the 2 contradict each other imo.

160 haste and 80 str is two completely different things.

I might trade my apple for an orange but that does not mean I would trade if for a banana.

[Nillo]

To say moronic is a tad harsh Firefly, i asked the question because i gem pure haste in every slot (including helm). So i figgure that if i'm happy to lose the stam socket bonus from helm then why bother enchanting stam on chest. I know i'm not the only pala that goes haste gem in helm, so i figgured that if pala's are happy to lose 220 stam for 160 haste then why bother taking the stam chest enchant, the 2 contradict each other imo.

Because 160 haste vs 240 stam is something else than 80 str vs 220 stam. No contradiction here because 160ish haste isn't in the same league as 80 str o0

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

To say moronic is a tad harsh Firefly, i asked the question because i gem pure haste in every slot (including helm). So i figgure that if i'm happy to lose the stam socket bonus from helm then why bother enchanting stam on chest. I know i'm not the only pala that goes haste gem in helm, so i figgured that if pala's are happy to lose 220 stam for 160 haste then why bother taking the stam chest enchant, the 2 contradict each other imo.

Why not gem expertise/haste in the helmet and get the haste and the stamina?

[Lackluster]

Why not gem expertise/haste in the helmet and get the haste and the stamina?

Absolutely agree, in my opinion this is the ONE gem slot where it's a no-brainer to socket a hybrid gem. I'd perhaps consider gemming exp/haste in the red ring sockets with a +60 haste bonus (it helps if that +160 expertise gives me superior reforging options) and pretty much everything else is 320 haste for me.

[Regen]

Remember way back when the go to was the resilience enchant to cover that last .001% of ctc? Just do that and say f the haters.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Remember way back when the go to was the resilience enchant to cover that last .001% of ctc? Just do that and say f the haters.

That was in WotLK when resilience reduced the chance to be critted, so the PvP shoulder enchant allowed you to drop to 536 defence skill instead of 540.

[Nillo]

Remember way back when the go to was the resilience enchant to cover that last .001% of ctc? Just do that and say f the haters.

How is this relevant to the discussion? >_>

[garthvedar]

Paladins are far from faceroll. I also see a lot of decked out haste paladins who don't understand how to utilize it.

I'm very interested in that statement. could you elaborate ? My main issue right now is that I would like to output some more DPS.
also, I've been reading more and more about a "crit build" or a build that favors more crit and I was wondering how much of a DPS boost this would bring, and if its worth sacrificing a bit of haste for it?

i'm currently using the Spark Of Zandalar (ilvl536) for the haste, and am at about 46%. should I get more crit ?

Is it really viable to get the amplify trinket from SHA to be used as a prot paladin even though it procs intellect ?

would getting the 4set bonus be worth letting go of heroic chest and head pieces?

my armory: eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/ravencrest/Jackspeare/advanced
shameful logs: worldoflogs.com/reports/f76n7hxxfhu77pnt/details/20/?s=3573&e=4100

your kind advice would be appreciated

[Lackluster]

I'm very interested in that statement. could you elaborate ? My main issue right now is that I would like to output some more DPS.
also, I've been reading more and more about a "crit build" or a build that favors more crit and I was wondering how much of a DPS boost this would bring, and if its worth sacrificing a bit of haste for it?

The crit builds do not sacrifice haste, they are still haste capped. They sacrifice mastery (which is a pure defensive stat) for crit instead after they feel that they are sufficiently survivable.
As long as you need the haste from the Spark of Zandalar it's a fantastic trinket, I used it all the way until I got my heroic Malkorok trinket.
Personally I am running normal tier helm and shoulders over heroic non-set pieces for my 4 piece. This is a point of much debate and largely personal preference though. I do dislike the tier pants greatly and would use either the pants from Garrosh or Ordos instead. I wouldn't have gemmed for the socket bonuses in your chest tbh, 120 strength is mostly worthless and not worth losing 320 haste. I know your boots are shiny heroic warforged but if you have regular heroic boots from malkorok or shamans I'd prefer those, especially with the hit rating being wasted on these. Other than that I have little to remark about your armory.

Had a quick look at your logs. I see you're using the legendary dps cloak (wearing tank one on the armory), this is good as these early fights shouldn't be a real threat to you any more.
Your holy power gained is lower than it should be for fights of that length (I only looked at protectors and sha). Stick to your rotation and try to have 100% uptime on your target. I'm confident that you know what you should be doing by now, just make an effort to make sure you're always attacking!

tl;dr: Don't sacrifice haste, keep stacking it until 50%. After that if you feel that you're sufficiently survivable you can sacrifice mastery for crit.

[omaga]

I'm very interested in that statement. could you elaborate ? My main issue right now is that I would like to output some more DPS.
also, I've been reading more and more about a "crit build" or a build that favors more crit and I was wondering how much of a DPS boost this would bring, and if its worth sacrificing a bit of haste for it?

i'm currently using the Spark Of Zandalar (ilvl536) for the haste, and am at about 46%. should I get more crit ?

Is it really viable to get the amplify trinket from SHA to be used as a prot paladin even though it procs intellect ?

would getting the 4set bonus be worth letting go of heroic chest and head pieces?

my armory: eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/ravencrest/Jackspeare/advanced
shameful logs: worldoflogs.com/reports/f76n7hxxfhu77pnt/details/20/?s=3573&e=4100

your kind advice would be appreciated

im pretty sure that its 50% hard cap haste before thinking sacrificing any, and that int question that's up to u, u might get looked at funny but if a heroic warforge one drops and no one needs it... worth a shot