[Prot] Fix my Tanking!

[celinamuna]

I can see where you guys are heading, I admit that tank dps is much more important in 10 man, and that bosses don't hit as hard.

But you are making it out to be like the dps cloak is a significant piece on the enrage timer. You need sub par raid dps and a 0.5% wipe for it to matter (took hc kills on prot paladin records 10 man as example) on an enrage timer. How does that happen more often than a tank death?

We already forgot about the dps metagem, but even with the nerf its more damage than the dps cloak for tanks with high haste and we are not wearing it anymore.

Agree that it may be part of an offensive set, but highly doubt the extra 2.5~3.5% personal dps it gives will save you a wipe to enrage.

It only takes one wipe due to tank death for the tank cloak to outperform dps cloak progression wise (and lets face it, tanks die, I just don't believe you and your healers are gods of raiding mechanics and rng, be it 10 or 25 man).

From personal experience, during the first week when we were going for garrosh kills out of the 5 times we made it into p3, 2 times we've wiped at < 1% (where the cloak proc did not help me at all), and 2 times in 5-10% range with a kill on 5th time.

Furthermore saying that it takes one wipe due to tank death to outperform is silly. If we're talking about farm bosses, maybe, but i would not say that for progression.

And since we're discussing it's usability in extreme damage cases, I've got the pleasure of getting to solo tank H Thok in my wonderful 551 ilvl (because having high ilvl is over rated) and I'm still probably going to be trying to do a few pulls with the dps one.
Why ?
The tank cloak IS actually highly useful on this fight, near the end of p1 boss melees for ~1.3-1.5m on plate and tank proc is actually highly useful. The thing is, this is the only part of the fight where it is useful, and the extreme amount of veng during those phases makes the dps cloak proc very powerful (even if there's no adds for it to cleave onto) and every single death i've had was either to bad management of CDs on my part, or us not transitioning at the proper times.
The only reason I'm even using it right now on that fight is because i've set up my reforges for it and because i'm between 10-15 ilvls below where I'd like to be for that fight.

Combined with the fact that on some of the fights dps cloak can be 10% of my dps, it's silly to ignore it.
(More silly than using tank meta in place of dps one during ToT)

[Deleted]

And since we're discussing it's usability in extreme damage cases, I've got the pleasure of getting to solo tank H Thok in my wonderful 551 ilvl (because having high ilvl is over rated) and I'm still probably going to be trying to do a few pulls with the dps one.

Psssh, you overgearer, I had 543 ilvl

I honestly like the tank cloak for Thok, especially if you use 1 tank.
I would however say that using 2 tanks for thok is not that bad if you play the vengeance game good. You can have two tanks with extremely high vengeance and using 2 tanks you can safely use dps cloak on both if really needed. You could consider trying two tanks if you are having problems. It is not that big of a drawback that you might think. We used double paladin tanks (my co-tank got geared warrior/monk/paladin tanks and thok is the only fight he plays his paladin on) for double lights hammer, BoP and AMs. Tank lights hammer on Thok is so OP.

[celinamuna]

Psssh, you overgearer, I had 543 ilvl

I honestly like the tank cloak for Thok, especially if you use 1 tank.
I would however say that using 2 tanks for thok is not that bad if you play the vengeance game good. You can have two tanks with extremely high vengeance and using 2 tanks you can safely use dps cloak on both if really needed. You could consider trying two tanks if you are having problems. It is not that big of a drawback that you might think. We used double paladin tanks (my co-tank got geared warrior/monk/paladin tanks and thok is the only fight he plays his paladin on) for double lights hammer, BoP and AMs. Tank lights hammer on Thok is so OP.

lel
And again i feel like it is one of the fights where tank cloak isn't 100% terribad, but at the same time DPS one also is much more useful than it is on average fight.
If we had 2 paladins we'd def use it (i think our healers would cream themselves for double devo / bops), but when we tried 2 tanking with paladin/monk we weren't really making any progress compared to solo tanking in terms of boss %.

[Deleted]

lel
And again i feel like it is one of the fights where tank cloak isn't 100% terribad, but at the same time DPS one also is much more useful than it is on average fight.
If we had 2 paladins we'd def use it (i think our healers would cream themselves for double devo / bops), but when we tried 2 tanking with paladin/monk we weren't really making any progress compared to solo tanking in terms of boss %.

Yeah, I had the exact same feeling. Thok is one of the few fights that the tank cloak is really useful, but so is the dps cloak. The dps is definately an issue unless you overgear it. We killed it during the enrage on our first kill.

Double devo bop in insanely helpful. Lights hammer is imo better than both those though. We had the problem we would run into the 30 stack insta kill all the time though. So we had to tell our healers to stop healing at 27 stacks.

And yeah, do whatever floats your boat. There are so many ways to do thok. If solo tanking works for you than do it We used a quite developed tank swap schedule to get maximum dps out of the 2 tanks we had. You can also do Thok italian style (a bit of a joke from our guild after seeing an italian guild whos name escapes me) doing thok with 1 tank and 4 healers.

[celinamuna]

Yeah, I had the exact same feeling. Thok is one of the few fights that the tank cloak is really useful, but so is the dps cloak. The dps is definately an issue unless you overgear it. We killed it during the enrage on our first kill.

Double devo bop in insanely helpful. Lights hammer is imo better than both those though. We had the problem we would run into the 30 stack insta kill all the time though. So we had to tell our healers to stop healing at 27 stacks.

And yeah, do whatever floats your boat. There are so many ways to do thok. If solo tanking works for you than do it We used a quite developed tank swap schedule to get maximum dps out of the 2 tanks we had. You can also do Thok italian style (a bit of a joke from our guild after seeing an italian guild whos name escapes me) doing thok with 1 tank and 4 healers.

What was the 30 stack insta kill ? Is it raid members dying ? Because I can't see tank damage being insta kill with 2 tanks.

[Deleted]

What was the 30 stack insta kill ? Is it raid members dying ? Because I can't see tank damage being insta kill with 2 tanks.

After Method used a tactic that involved using 12 or so healers to stay in P1 forever, never going into transition, they got the boss down to about 20% health before GMs intervened, wiped their entire raid. They then implemented a hotfix that the 30th stack one shots you.

If you get 29 stacks of acceleration, the next stack is basically gonna kill everyone in your entire raid, just because Method tried to cheat the encouter. To me this is silly as our healers could easily keep us up to 40 or so stacks, they should have put the cheese limit at 40-50 in my opinion.

[celinamuna]

After Method used a tactic that involved using 12 or so healers to stay in P1 forever, never going into transition, they got the boss down to about 20% health before GMs intervened, wiped their entire raid. They then implemented a hotfix that the 30th stack one shots you.

If you get 29 stacks of acceleration, the next stack is basically gonna kill everyone in your entire raid, just because Method tried to cheat the encouter. To me this is silly as our healers could easily keep us up to 40 or so stacks, they should have put the cheese limit at 40-50 in my opinion.

Ah, i remember reading that, but i was under impression that that was for 25 mans only. GGWP

And for 10 mans i can't really see the point of 1 tank 4 heals esp given the 30 stack limit. But i guess if it works it works. xD

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Also a note: The tank cloak only saves you if the damage hit is equal or less to your maximum life value. If you take a million damage hit, and only have 900k life, you die (unless you have AD active, which has no damage cap on the cheat death).

[Deleted]

Also a note: The tank cloak only saves you if the damage hit is equal or less to your maximum life value. If you take a million damage hit, and only have 900k life, you die (unless you have AD active, which has no damage cap on the cheat death).

I was made painfully aware of this on siegecrafter when I tried using the tank cloak to soak the 5th stack of electromagnetic smash.

Should be noted though that in your scenario you would survive if you have over 100k health. How it works is that if something hits for enough to kill you, the cloak procs, but it will only absorb 100% of your health. In my case I had about 900k health, and electromagnetic hit for around 1.6M, which means that I took a hit of 700k instead of 1.6M as the cloak absorbed my full health (900k) from the 1.6M.

[DrTerrier]

Hey guys! Terrier here once again. Let me shed some light on the things I was asked about.

Ret tier chest was a massive derp that happened. Regret it still, but have to stick with it for now.

It is indeed 10 man content, and I will be doing the swaps as necessary concerning gemming haste > stamina.

What I would like is a simple guideline on EF usage. I vary its usage alongside the 14 bosses (I use it mainly on Thok, Malkorok, Spoils) as a way to help raid healing, but my main issue with it is on pull situations. Is it correct to EF yourself on 0 BoG stacks on pull? Do I pop a minor cd to help myself smooth out the first 20 seconds so I can get a 3+ BoG EF? I will try my best to extend usage to all bosses.

Once again, really appreciate the feedback and will continue to do so in the future!

[Burnick]

Hey guys! Terrier here once again. Let me shed some light on the things I was asked about.

Ret tier chest was a massive derp that happened. Regret it still, but have to stick with it for now.

It is indeed 10 man content, and I will be doing the swaps as necessary concerning gemming haste > stamina.

What I would like is a simple guideline on EF usage. I vary its usage alongside the 14 bosses (I use it mainly on Thok, Malkorok, Spoils) as a way to help raid healing, but my main issue with it is on pull situations. Is it correct to EF yourself on 0 BoG stacks on pull? Do I pop a minor cd to help myself smooth out the first 20 seconds so I can get a 3+ BoG EF? I will try my best to extend usage to all bosses.

Once again, really appreciate the feedback and will continue to do so in the future!

Check your private messages, if possible message me back



On the other hand http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/d...127662112.html

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

I was made painfully aware of this on siegecrafter when I tried using the tank cloak to soak the 5th stack of electromagnetic smash.

Should be noted though that in your scenario you would survive if you have over 100k health. How it works is that if something hits for enough to kill you, the cloak procs, but it will only absorb 100% of your health. In my case I had about 900k health, and electromagnetic hit for around 1.6M, which means that I took a hit of 700k instead of 1.6M as the cloak absorbed my full health (900k) from the 1.6M.

I tried using the cloak to absorb an Execution to the face when tanking Lei Shen heroic a week or two ago. Yeah, that didn't work out too well.

[Deleted]

Hey guys! Terrier here once again. Let me shed some light on the things I was asked about.

Ret tier chest was a massive derp that happened. Regret it still, but have to stick with it for now.

It is indeed 10 man content, and I will be doing the swaps as necessary concerning gemming haste > stamina.

What I would like is a simple guideline on EF usage. I vary its usage alongside the 14 bosses (I use it mainly on Thok, Malkorok, Spoils) as a way to help raid healing, but my main issue with it is on pull situations. Is it correct to EF yourself on 0 BoG stacks on pull? Do I pop a minor cd to help myself smooth out the first 20 seconds so I can get a 3+ BoG EF? I will try my best to extend usage to all bosses.

Once again, really appreciate the feedback and will continue to do so in the future!

Do not EF yourself with 0 BoG stacks. Ever. You need to understand that unlike Sacred Shield, EF is not something that we necessarily aim for 100% uptime on. EF'ing yourself with 0 stacks is a net loss to mitigation, as you would have been better served using that HoPo on SotR instead.

Now, what I usually do (as there are no real 1-tank fights this tier, barring the antics of Firefly and his ilk on Thok) is let my warrior co-tank pull. This way, I get to sit off to the side and build BoG stacks while he takes a beating, as he has less ramp-up time on his mitigation. Then, when the time comes for me to taunt, I wait until the first melee swing from the boss has gone in to pop EF. This has two effects - one, it makes sure that the initial application happens with a significant amount of vengeance, and two, it makes efficient use of the initial, direct heal from EF. From then on, you should always aim to refresh EF right as it is about to run out, or right after it has run out, and always do so with 5 BoG stacks. You can "hold" the reapplication slightly on some fights to make better use on the initial heal - I, for example, on Dark Shaman, make a habit of waiting until just after a Froststorm Bolt has gone out to reapply.

Obviously, if there is a fight where you are expected to pull, and the boss hits like a truck, you can pop a CD on pull to smooth damage - although quite frankly, with remotely competent healers, this should never be strictly necessary. On a fight like Malkorok, or perhaps Iron Juggernaut, where you need the initial EF ASAP, Holy Avenger is an excellent choice - especially seeing as Holy Avenger has other uses, like letting you do silly shit like solo-soaking Blood Rage on Heroic.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Obviously, if there is a fight where you are expected to pull, and the boss hits like a truck, you can pop a CD on pull to smooth damage

Divine Purpose plus Divine Protection with T15_4p on a boss with high initial damage (like Dark Shaman with the two doggies) can ramp up your BoG stacks REALLY quickly.

[Deleted]

Now, what I usually do (as there are no real 1-tank fights this tier, barring the antics of Firefly and his ilk on Thok) is let my warrior co-tank pull.

We use two tanks on Thok since we have 2 paladin tanks and they are OP for Thok. But 1 tanking is a widely known tactic for it. There are also several examples of 1 tank fights this tier. What you also have to consider that any fight where both tanks are actively engaged i combat is in practice a "1 tank fight".

Say 2 tanking Dark Shams, both tanks are tanking something for the entire duration of the fight. In the same fashion, but tanks are always tanking something on Norushen, Galakras (except the final phase), Spoils, Siegecrafter bar the downtime between adds and Paragons.

But yeah, during no fight on this tier should you cast a 0 stack EF on yourself, and not really any fight you should cast a 3 stacker either.

[LuisKA]

Hey everyone, back here to ask for a piece of advice.

I may be solo soaking one of the two blood rages on Malkorok heroic tonight, and could really use a hand on calculations to manage CDs.

Does Sanctuary (-15%) and weakened blows (-10%) apply to this? Do personal reductions apply before or after externals? Is Rook talisman applied to blood rage base damage?

If it helps, I have Rook hc talisman (37%DR) and 25h Blood Rage does 6.682.500 unmitigated damage.

Thanks in advance!

Edit. Basic math is basic, multiplication is conmutative. Don't mind my ignorance.

[Deleted]

Hey everyone, back here to ask for a piece of advice.

I may be solo soaking one of the two blood rages on Malkorok heroic tonight, and could really use a hand on calculations to manage CDs.

Does Sanctuary (-15%) and weakened blows (-10%) apply to this? Do personal reductions apply before or after externals? Is Rook talisman applied to blood rage base damage?

If it helps, I have Rook hc talisman (37%DR) and 25h Blood Rage does 6.682.500 unmitigated damage.

Thanks in advance!

Edit. Basic math is basic, multiplication is conmutative. Don't mind my ignorance.

What I use

0s HA(will change to SW when I get CDR trinket), GoAK, Lei-Shens trinket, Stoneform
5s Rook HC Talisman
10s DP, Ardent Defender

But this is for 10 man, I see you do 25 man. I guess you will want to rotate heavy healer CDs on you aswell.

[LuisKA]

What's the rotation you have planned for SW? J-CS -J-filler repeat?

[Deleted]

We use two tanks on Thok since we have 2 paladin tanks and they are OP for Thok. But 1 tanking is a widely known tactic for it. There are also several examples of 1 tank fights this tier. What you also have to consider that any fight where both tanks are actively engaged i combat is in practice a "1 tank fight".

Say 2 tanking Dark Shams, both tanks are tanking something for the entire duration of the fight. In the same fashion, but tanks are always tanking something on Norushen, Galakras (except the final phase), Spoils, Siegecrafter bar the downtime between adds and Paragons.

But yeah, during no fight on this tier should you cast a 0 stack EF on yourself, and not really any fight you should cast a 3 stacker either.

The thing about all those fights (and even Thok, apparently - I read it as if you were the only tank in the raid group for that fight, but obviously not) is that unlike say, Durumu or Iron Qon last tier, you have the option of letting the boss hit someone else initially while you build BoG stacks. Last tier, if you didn't have aggro on Durumu, Durumu would kill your squishier compatriots. This tier, on every single boss, you have the option of letting your co-tank aggro everything for a while so you can build stacks.

Anyhow, as has been stated multiple times now, never EF yourself at 0 BoG stacks. It's just a waste.

[Deleted]

I'm coming up to the Spoils of Pandaria fight on normal soon - had a taste of it on LFR and Flex. Should tanks be the ones who open the crates or the dps? On LFR, I found I was interrupted sometimes, so wonder if it's better for a ranged dps to do it. But it seems something of a dps race, so maybe tanks are expected to do it to free up the dpsers?