Thrall is to blame for the Horde's current state

[DEATHETERNAL]

This is like blaming Bush for the economy, it doesn't add up if you actually know what you are talking about.

[Justignoreme]

This is like blaming Bush for the economy, it doesn't add up if you actually know what you are talking about.

not really. seeing as how Bush was a president of a free nation with many various entities that do not answer to him, especially in the private sector and Garrosh is a despot with the final say on everything that goes on in his horde. Garrosh is entirely responsible for the Horde's current state of affairs. Thrall is not.

[Dreknar20]

First off, trade has done more for prospering civilisations than warfare ever has. If you are a maritime empire, you trade your catch for stuff from other lands that don't have access to the sea and its resources. That is how things have been done.
.

Yet trade was not looking very viable now was it?
The Night Elves were not all giddy about trading with Orcs, and the "Horde" attacks in Ashenvele were not helping matters.

Plus its better to actually own said resources than to have to pay for them.

Also, is it so wise to have to depend on another nation? A nation that large portions hate the Horde, and the Horde hates them in return? Is it so smart to be depending on the enemy for your basic neccesities?

---------- Post added 2012-11-10 at 08:43 PM ----------

mineral resources and building materials. ..

rescources that were fast becoming depleted, its all part of the lore...

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Thrall is either a bad judge of character or really cannot see how Garrosh is compared to himself or his old friendship with Garrosh's daddy blinds him and can't perceive Garrosh as we do. Sure Garrosh was only intended to be a temporary Warchief but that didn't happen. I understand Thrall is a father now but he can't just look at his child and NOT wonder "I wonder how the Horde is doing."

Heck if I was in Thrall's position I'd probably visit Orgrimmar and see what's up. I know he's going to do something but it's a bit late and things are getting worse and worse. Yes Garrosh is to blame for all this but it's a two-way street here. It sucks that you have to go up against your friend's son but negligence is even worse. I think the only orc that is excused is Saurfang despite his claims. I'm sure this has been said many times but Garrosh is a good Orc warrior but not exactly best for politics(Who'da thunk?). I'll give him credit he does things(Compared to Thrall...intended or not). Not much else though except wanting to be acknowledged I sympathsise with him on that alone.


Disclaimer: I do not approve of Garrosh at all, just merely explaining some things he feels and the situations coming to this.

[Rivellana]

Having read the books, I can't possibly see Thrall being truly at fault for this.

I mean, he knew that the leaders of the other races including Vol'Jin and Cairne were not happy with Garrosh being the choice to replace Thrall but at the time it was the only clear choice he could see. He saw the problems with Garrosh as well but he truly believed that Garrosh would be the only viable choice to lead the Horde at that time. Obviously Thrall realized a bit of this as you could see in the questline in Cataclysm where you have to fight each of the four elements to free him.

However, only Garrosh is responsible for the path he ultimately chose to take.

[apepi]

This is like blaming Bush for the economy, it doesn't add up if you actually know what you are talking about.

If he never gave Garrosh leadership, Garrosh could have never done what he did. In Wrath it was shown that he was a ignorant orc. Thrall should have seen that, but that is Thralls weakness, but Cairne saw it right off(he was the best leader the horde has, he stood up to garrosh, the rest of the horde just let Garrosh walk over them >.>). So yes it is partly Thrall fault, and he himself will see it that way I bet it. Even if asked that Thrall will not take Warchief because of what happened, would make for a good story.

[Dreknar20]

I understand Thrall is a father now but he can't just look at his child and NOT wonder "I wonder how the Horde is doing."
.

Im sure he does wonder

But doing something about it is a whole different matter
Killing your own borthers and sisters in a civil war that could destroy the Horde in the process? Gotta think about that for a bit before committing

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Im sure he does wonder

But doing something about it is a whole different matter
Killing your own borthers and sisters in a civil war that could destroy the Horde in the process? Gotta think about that for a bit before committing

Oh I know that hence why I'm giving the benefit of the doubt in 5.1. I mean the last time he had to go against his own was in WCIII and even then I'm sure that was no picnic.

[apepi]

Yes, you can, coastal communities diets are almost entirely based on the bounty of the sea...

Generations ago, all those orcs are dead and long gone. They are effectively irrelevant to the Orcs living on Azeroth.

Actually we still have some of those orcs that lived in that time, Like Eitrigg and Saurfang. And hunting is a big part of their food.

[Deleted]

Are you not getting tired of your own Thrall endorsing and Garrosh bashing, whilst insulting other people for disagreeing with you? Every darn post. Cut it out.

Actually, he has a point. Why would people, despite all the sh1t Garrosh did between end of Cata and now, still claim he's a good guy and claim he's only doing what's best for the Horde? Even more now that we know that he's being inspired by Mogu to rule the way thay did and even go as far to use a old god essence (aka Sha) that no mortal can control for his personal gain?

You could atleast input a constructive response, instead of bashing the guy wh's trying to make a point to people who preffer to be deff.

[Dreknar20]

claim he's only doing what's best for the Horde? .

Well he is doing what he believes is best for the Horde, just like every other leader out there

[Trassk]

Actually, he has a point. Why would people, despite all the sh1t Garrosh did between end of Cata and now, still claim he's a good guy and claim he's only doing what's best for the Horde? Even more now that we know that he's being inspired by Mogu to rule the way thay did and even go as far to use a old god essence (aka Sha) that no mortal can control for his personal gain?

You could atleast input a constructive response, instead of bashing the guy wh's trying to make a point to people who preffer to be deff.

Thank you dude, sadly it doesn't get though to people who perceive it as an insult to be told there deaf when someones telling them what blizzard has made so clear.

Like I've said on other posts, Garrosh could eat a live human baby and his fans would still claim its for the good of the horde, because thats how such people are, they can't see something evil in a character when they can't think outside the bubble.

---------- Post added 2012-11-10 at 11:14 PM ----------

Oh I know that hence why I'm giving the benefit of the doubt in 5.1. I mean the last time he had to go against his own was in WCIII and even then I'm sure that was no picnic.

Fact is this is the second time Thrall has had to fight against corrupted orcs brought on by the hellscream name. I love Thrall, but I think this should be the make or break moment, I hope he stands clear on the fact now Garrosh can't be 'saved' and decides to just deal with him.

[Airwaves]

It's in the Tides of War novel. Garrosh used demons to steal the focusing iris from the blue dragonflight.

Did you even read the book? I am not a Garrosh fan but ffs at least get the facts right. Hellscream has not used Demons and i can bet there is no way he will ever use them.

[Trassk]

Did you even read the book? I am not a Garrosh fan but ffs at least get the facts right. Hellscream has not used Demons and i can bet there is no way he will ever use them.

But if you read the book, at the end, Garrosh orders the horde to use demons in his war.

[Airwaves]

But if you read the book, at the end, Garrosh orders the horde to use demons in his war.

"Everything" does not mean demons. Blizz isn't going to make him fall the same way as his father. Sure he might us a few orc warlocks to fight with the general army but there numbers are very small.

At the chance they do make him fall that way it would be very boring way to end it.

[Deleted]

Thank you dude, sadly it doesn't get though to people who perceive it as an insult to be told there deaf when someones telling them what blizzard has made so clear.

I do not care about who is right or not. You may very well be right. My issue lies with you insulting people in these threads whenever they disagree (unfounded or not) with you. Once again, cut it out.

[Pete]

Garrosh was the right choice at the time, but things have changed
Good leaders adapt their plan to suit what is going on at the time but garrosh' mindset is unchanged

Hes more or less being set up to be another grom, but without the final redemption.

[ManjiSanji]

If the President of the United States appointed somebody with a low level of experience and a high temper to a prominent military position, who then utilized his position to go on to start numerous needless wars and alienate your allies, who would you blame for making the poorest decision?

Of course, this is all a fictional universe, and conflict is good for story, intrigue and progression, but from a responsibility standpoint, the commander is always responsible for his subordinates' actions.

[Trassk]

I the commander is always responsible for his subordinates' actions.

When cata was released and the quest chain in stonetalon was brought up, many including myself said it was down to Garrosh that his commander did what he did to the druid school, and of course, like even now, Garrosh's fans said it wasn't Garrosh's fault and he can't be held accountable for it.
And now, those same people try and accuse Thrall of being responsible for Garrosh's actions and none of it is Garrosh's fault. Again, the double standards card.

[Philosopino]

I think Thrall's selection of fucked up races is to blame TBH.