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  1. #781
    My problem isn't, necessarily, that the left want more social policies. My problem is that the left, classically, cares far less for the financial realities of the policies they want, choosing instead to lean on nebulous benefits we'll supposedly see down the road (which include "opportunity costs" of not providing X for the poor).
    We're not really at the cost phase of implementation though. That's something you figure out when you're actually crafting a bill. Right now those who want single payer need to just focus on advertising the idea and getting people elected who will move towards it. That being said single payer systems are generally delivering care for less than our current one so I don't get cost as a valid objection at this time.
    Inflation is directly related to purchasing power. Yes, real value of the federal minimum wage has dropped significantly since the 70s... but only AFTER it increased significantly from the 40s.
    This doesn't really matter. Real value has dropped.

  2. #782
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    So you are saying that minimum wage was never meant to allow anyone to ever actually live in any fashion? If it doesn't even allow you to support yourself and give you even the most basic of needed things, then what the hell is the point?
    Once upon a time the minimum wage did provide a living wage. Continual increases keep it over a living wage, but accelerate inflation. 100% of goods produced in the United States attribute their costs to labor or profit (Which is merely what corporate owners deem their labor worth). This means that the minimum wage starts off pretty awesome. In 5 years or less, though, minimum wage is right back to being a shitty, rock-bottom job that can't pay rent.

    Sorry, if it doesn't allow one to support themselves and provide a minimum of the basics needed just to survive, it isn't enough. If it was that low this entire time, why the hell haven't we had a civil war yet as it is long overdue at that point?
    Because there's nothing that can be done to fix it.

    The bottom is always going to be the bottom and no amount of price-fixing (Which is all the minimum wage is) will change that.

    Libertarian think tanks routinely find, in their studies, that Unions, rather than the poor, benefit more when the minimum wage increases.

  3. #783
    Quote Originally Posted by Morogoth View Post
    boycott

    is one of our collective power.

    edit: we should make a list, I will work on that and I will post it everywhere. I know that corporations own almost everything, but i'm on a crusade.
    I'd boycott Papa John's for this, if I wasn't already boycotting them for producing disgusting inedible pizza.

  4. #784
    Yeah, I'll pass on having a bunch of sick, underpaid people with no health insurance make my pizza for me. THANKS.

  5. #785
    Quote Originally Posted by stumpy View Post
    I'd boycott Papa John's for this, if I wasn't already boycotting them for producing disgusting inedible pizza.
    The sad thing is if we boycott the restaurant, the owner will still have his millions and a lot of poor people will lose their job...FML

    edit: we should march on his manor, 100k people marching and burning everything on their path! That would make a beautiful movie.

    p.s. hello NSA
    Last edited by Morogoth; 2012-11-16 at 02:48 AM.

  6. #786
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Once upon a time the minimum wage did provide a living wage. Continual increases keep it over a living wage, but accelerate inflation. 100% of goods produced in the United States attribute their costs to labor or profit (Which is merely what corporate owners deem their labor worth). This means that the minimum wage starts off pretty awesome. In 5 years or less, though, minimum wage is right back to being a shitty, rock-bottom job that can't pay rent.



    Because there's nothing that can be done to fix it.

    The bottom is always going to be the bottom and no amount of price-fixing (Which is all the minimum wage is) will change that.

    Libertarian think tanks routinely find, in their studies, that Unions, rather than the poor, benefit more when the minimum wage increases.
    So basically what you are saying is the corporate owners are too greedy and trying to steal more than their fair share of the pie. So we have to increase our minimum wage while somehow muzzling the ones controlling the rate of inflation. That is a hard one to try and fix without forcing a lot of peoples hands.

    There is plenty to fix though. Yes the bottom is always the bottom, but how far the bottom is is the problem, they want the bottom set WAY too low for what it should be.

    You just said flat out what the problem is and then said there was no problem........ The corporate owners deem labor to be artificially lower than what it is really worth but since they hold most of the cards they have gotten away with it and THAT is what we need to fix.

    Edit: Off to my FML job that is neither mentally nor physically, nor sexually, nor financially gratifying in any way...... Honestly still have trouble justifying even going but according to others, if you are willing to throw a couple decades of your life away at a job proving yourself, a real job might one day hire you for a job that pays at the poverty line and if you are lucky, above it. Or at least you can depend on handouts while using it to pay for college and then get a real job (what I am stuck doing for now).
    Last edited by Fugus; 2012-11-16 at 02:49 AM.

  7. #787
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    The argument I've always heard for a lower minimum wage is that employers would be spending less on creating their products in conjunction with demand going down, forcing them to lower their prices.

    Not sure if I necessarily agree with that, however.

  8. #788
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    We're not really at the cost phase of implementation though. That's something you figure out when you're actually crafting a bill. Right now those who want single payer need to just focus on advertising the idea and getting people elected who will move towards it. That being said single payer systems are generally delivering care for less than our current one so I don't get cost as a valid objection at this time.
    "Where the money comes from" must necessarily be one of the first things determined when drafting a policy.

    Switzerland seems to be a better happy medium for the left and right. It does away with the price-fixing regimes of other nations while spending almost 40% less per capita.

    This doesn't really matter. Real value has dropped.
    And what system would you implement? You can't say the minimum wage hasn't been consistently increased. To the contrary, it's increased by about 25-30% every decade practically like clockwork since its inception except from 1967 through 1976 when it was increased by almost 10% almost every year.

    You can't take an honest look at those figures and expect me to believe continual minimum wage increases are a policy that works when, after 60 years, that policy has failed to maintain a standard of living.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-16 at 02:54 AM ----------

    And then take a look at this chart.

    http://www.usinflationcalculator.com...flation-rates/

    Where it shows periods of significant inflation have accompanied minimum wage hikes rather routinely.

    Pay special attention to the late 70s and early 80s (About 5 years after the "golden age" of minimum wage).

  9. #789
    "Where the money comes from" must necessarily be one of the first things determined when drafting a policy.
    That's what I'm telling you. The debate isn't to the point of drafting a specific bill. Its still at "is single payer a type of system we want to pursue".
    Switzerland seems to be a better happy medium for the left and right. It does away with the price-fixing regimes of other nations while spending almost 40% less per capita.
    Among first world nations Switzerland is still 4th with us, belgium and France ahead of them. I don't know about belgium but France provides a huge amount of stuff and both of those nations are only about a percentage point of GDP above Switzerland.
    You can't say the minimum wage hasn't been consistently increased
    Absolute value is pointless. If we create the minimum wage to keep standard of living up the only thing that matters in this discussion is the purchasing power.
    You can't take an honest look at those figures and expect me to believe continual minimum wage increases are a policy that works when, after 60 years, that policy has failed to maintain a standard of living.
    There are more factors at play here, we both know this.

  10. #790
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    That's what I'm telling you. The debate isn't to the point of drafting a specific bill. Its still at "is single payer a type of system we want to pursue".
    How about enjoying the ACA and giving it a chance before determining that answer is "no", then?

    Among first world nations Switzerland is still 4th with us, belgium and France ahead of them. I don't know about belgium but France provides a huge amount of stuff and both of those nations are only about a percentage point of GDP above Switzerland.
    I don't believe the system should be about spending the least per capita, but rather providing the highest level of service without placing the burden entirely on public coffers or fixing prices and nationalizing (and thus determining the compensation of) highly skilled professions such as doctors and nurses.

    Absolute value is pointless. If we create the minimum wage to keep standard of living up the only thing that matters in this discussion is the purchasing power.
    The decline of purchasing power is inflation. Can this be made any more clear?

    There are more factors at play here, we both know this.
    Don't you see how continually increasing the minimum wage causes inflation? In order to perpetually keep minimum wage as a livable wage you'd have to increase it every year at an accelerating rate to keep ahead of it.

  11. #791
    How about enjoying the ACA and giving it a chance before determining that answer is "no", then?
    I'm not sure what your point here is. I think the ACA is better than nothing. I think single payer would be better.
    I don't believe the system should be about spending the least per capita, but rather providing the highest level of service without placing the burden entirely on public coffers or fixing prices and nationalizing (and thus determining the compensation of) highly skilled professions such as doctors and nurses.
    Then if we're going to use the WHO rankings Switzerland is 20th in performance, even worse.
    Don't you see how continually increasing the minimum wage causes inflation? In order to perpetually keep minimum wage as a livable wage you'd have to increase it every year at an accelerating rate to keep ahead of it.
    yes you would. You'd have to even assuming this wasn't true because there is still inflation. I don't see the point to this discussion.

  12. #792
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Scandinavia has a broader tax base than the USA, however.
    Because there EVERYone pays taxes, yes?

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  13. #793
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    I'm not sure what your point here is. I think the ACA is better than nothing. I think single payer would be better.
    And I think there are still better ways. I'm just grateful the ACA isn't as bad as it could have been.

    Then if we're going to use the WHO rankings Switzerland is 20th in performance, even worse.
    "Worse" is a relative term considering the fact that if everyone in Europe had great health care and you placed them in a ranking system, someone would still be at the bottom. For instance, the UK, considered to have one of the best health care systems in the world, is #18. Canada is #30. Oh hey look at Sweden in #23.

    yes you would. You'd have to even assuming this wasn't true because there is still inflation. I don't see the point to this discussion.
    The point is that minimum wage increases factually correlate very strongly with inflation. Since this factually increases the cost of labor and production, one can very easily come to the conclusion that there's a causal link between minimum wage hikes and inflation.

  14. #794
    "Worse" is a relative term considering the fact that if everyone in Europe had great health care and you placed them in a ranking system, someone would still be at the bottom. For instance, the UK, considered to have one of the best health care systems in the world, is #18. Canada is #30. Oh hey look at Sweden in #23.
    And there are a bunch of single payer systems above it. That are cheaper. So lets look at those.
    The point is that minimum wage increases factually correlate very strongly with inflation.
    So does my age. Everything that goes up correlates with inflation.

    Since this factually increases the cost of labor and production, one can very easily come to the conclusion that there's a causal link between minimum wage hikes and inflation.
    a=b=c doesn't function with correlations.

  15. #795
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    Quote Originally Posted by undercovergnome View Post
    then we should increase the income tax for the top bracket to teach them a lesson
    punitive taxation, eh? and who do you really think its going to hurt? the rich will dig in harder, and pass those costs down to... yup... you guessed it... YOU!

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-15 at 09:34 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Yeah, pre-revamp Dominos wasn't literally inedible, it just tasted about the same as shitty freezer pizza.
    Random thought, where do you think the money came to bring Domino's back from the brink of bankruptcy?...

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  16. #796
    punitive taxation, eh? and who do you really think its going to hurt? the rich will dig in harder, and pass those costs down to... yup... you guessed it... YOU!
    I take it you're talking about the price of goods and services?

  17. #797
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    This mmohampion New Democrat would like papa johns (and the other companies that just happen to be having layoffs right after the election) to actually demonstrate that their layoffs are actually necessary to their businesses as they claim and not political games or retaliation against employees who they believe didn't vote as they demanded.

    But I rather suspect that would end up having the effect you describe.
    Lucky for you their business actions dont need your review or approval, you can chose to support them with your money or you can chose not to, thats all you are entitled to.

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  18. #798
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    And there are a bunch of single payer systems above it. That are cheaper. So lets look at those.
    Are you looking at the countries actually below Switzerland?

    In fact, the only Scandinavian nation ranked higher than Switzerland is Norway.

    5 of the countries above Switzerland are the PIIGS that are financially insolvent (One of whom recently let a woman die rather than have an abortion), so I don't think we want to follow their lead on anything having to do with the rather broad category of "things that cost money".

    4 more are microstates with fewer than 500,000 residents each.

    And are you really sure you want to use a list where Denmark's health care is barely beating out the United States'? Because I don't see that as helping your side.

    It seems to me that if we have to have universal health care, the program that doesn't attempt to fix prices is the best way to go for both sides of the aisle.

    So does my age. Everything that goes up correlates with inflation.

    a=b=c doesn't function with correlations.
    I don't think you saw that table I posted earlier in the thread that showed how routinely inflation increased above normal every time the minimum wage increased. Sure you can argue that it was several different things in each epoch that caused the inflation spikes... but I see no reason to disregard Occam's Razor here.

    Less than 5 years after the late-60s minimum wage hikes, inflation was regularly topping 10%.
    Last edited by Laize; 2012-11-16 at 03:43 AM.

  19. #799
    And are you really sure you want to use a list where Denmark's health care is barely beating out the United States'? Because I don't see that as helping your side.
    If you have problems with the WHO rankings I'd like to hear them. If we're looking abroad for ideas for a health care system, as we should, then we should be looking at the best and the most affordable. Switzerland is neither.

  20. #800
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    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    Oh don't be hard on him, you know he's got secret Pentagon documents that totally prove it, but he just can't show you.
    Thing is, throughout this thread, y'all say their Pizza tastes like shit, so you really expect anyone to think that you'll actually start liking their pizza if they raise their prices to cover healthcare costs for their employees...

    No, what will happen is, 'damn man we feel sorry for you for having to work for a shit pizza company that raised their prices.'

    And no, that wasn't in a Pentagon paper... /snickers and wanders off to make a real pizza.

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