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  1. #941
    Titan Seranthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    No, time will not tell, because we do not know and will never know what Romney would have done. There is no current necessity to make any changes because even if Romney now, they would have to wait until January 20th for Romney to do anything. If they were not going to lay off people right now if Romney won, there is nothing that is different at this moment that should lead them to lay offs, other than spite.
    its called finality, not spite. They were probably waiting to see if Obamacare would be overturned, now that isn't gonna happen. So, they acted accordingly.

    --- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal. -- Note to mods: if you are going to infract me have the decency to post the reason, and expect to hold everyone else to the same standard.

  2. #942
    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    It kept pace up until about Jan of 1981 ( when Reagan become president) after that it went down the crapper so to speak and obviously you failed to see that it in 2007 was falling over 40% below in just keeping up with inflation.

    ""The federal minimum wage has never included a feature by which it automatically increases each year to ensure that it maintains its purchasing power. As a result, Congress has to act to provide such adjustments.

    These adjustments have not always occurred in a timely fashion. Nonetheless, from 1938 to 1981, they did occur with enough regularity that the minimum wage generally either rose in purchasing power or remained relatively stable in real value.""

    Last being commentary from CBPP but it displays that up until 1981 min wage was mostly keeping pace with inflation after that it stopped.

    I pointed out that it kept mostly pace with inflation dont know where you get the idea that i didnt. But unlike you i can see it hasnt kept pace in the last 30 years and as a result it is too low. So explain why it is a good idea that it had fallen behind inflation by over 40% in 2007 ( the Fair Minimum Wage Act of 2007 solved a little bit about this problem but not all of it)
    The Federal minimum wage started off being around $5 in 2012 dollars. After that point it was outpacing inflation until it couldn't keep up anymore in the mid 70s. From that point forward the 10%-12% annual inflation that the minimum wage was causing was too much to justify accelerating its rise further.

  3. #943
    Quote Originally Posted by Riidii View Post
    It must be just coincidence that businesses are announcing massive layoffs, either subtly or non-subtly, post-election.
    Confirmation bias all up ins.

  4. #944
    Quote Originally Posted by Seran View Post
    But then you'd have to find a way to compel the teacher unions to compel the teachers to actually teach and educate instead of shoveling the kids thru the system and using them as props for your teacher strikes and political demonstrations.
    This is pretty damn pitiful, even for you.

  5. #945
    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    You dont need to explain anything, just plug some of your quoted numbers in and you will see how far behind min wage is today.

    1 dollar 1956 ==>> $8.50

    1.15 in 1961 ==>> $8.90

    1.25 in 1963 ==>> $9.45

    1.40 in 1967 ==>> $9.70

    1.60 in 1968 ==>> $10.64

    It is pretty obvious when you even study the numbers you linked to that it hasnt kept pace with inflation, I mean last time i checked we didnt have 10 dollar min wage, If anything it needs to be raised to about 12-13 dollars and ontop of that it needs to be automatically adjusted for inflation.
    You're being ridiculously obtuse and I'm almost through talking to you because of it.

    If you can't see how the minimum wage was outpacing inflation and causing MORE inflation because of it then I really don't have anything more to say.

    Here's the historical inflation rates of the United States

    Please pay very close attention to years following the introduction of the minimum wage, years it was increased significantly, and especially the mid 70s to early 80s.

    Then look at what happened to inflation when we stopped practically doubling the minimum wage every 10 years.

  6. #946
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Confirmation bias all up ins.
    It couldn't be what you were hoping for.

    It kind of makes me laugh in a sick way, thinking of one of those workers who voted for Obama, who then got laid off the next day.

    Tee hee hee.

    Decisions have consequences? You mean, "free" things have costs?

  7. #947
    Quote Originally Posted by Riidii View Post
    It couldn't be what you were hoping for.

    It kind of makes me laugh in a sick way, thinking of one of those workers who voted for Obama and then got laid off the next day.

    Tee hee hee.

    Decisions have consequences? You mean, "free" things have costs?
    Can you please try your hardest to engage in a discussion that isn't just a Gish Gallop of talk radio reruns?

    Boeing's Defense Division is laying off people for the same reason every other arms manufacturer is cutting costs right now. Less spending on defense. I know you wanted government to cut spending. This is the result. When you cut government spending you're going to see people lose jobs in the private sector.

  8. #948
    My point is that if you want to help poor people, I'm all ears, but 74 years of minimum wage increases have done NOTHING for poor people in the long term aside from cause ridiculous rises in inflation rates.

    Why can't we just call it a failed experiment and move on to solutions that might actually work? Like the Negative Income Tax!

  9. #949
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    Quote Originally Posted by stumpy View Post
    This is pretty damn pitiful, even for you.
    What, you missed the Chicago teachers strike where they used their students as props?
    You missed the demonstrations in AZ and CA where the teachers took their students to the protests? Seriously? you missed that?

    with the amount of money the US spends on student education they should be first in everything... but they are only first in spending and teacher strikes.

    So you are damn right I blame the teachers and those pulling their strings.

    --- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal. -- Note to mods: if you are going to infract me have the decency to post the reason, and expect to hold everyone else to the same standard.

  10. #950
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    My point is that if you want to help poor people, I'm all ears, but 74 years of minimum wage increases have done NOTHING for poor people in the long term aside from cause ridiculous rises in inflation rates.

    Why can't we just call it a failed experiment and move on to solutions that might actually work? Like the Negative Income Tax!
    You're hilariously oversimplifying an incredibly complicated mechanism.

  11. #951
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    My point is that if you want to help poor people, I'm all ears, but 74 years of minimum wage increases have done NOTHING for poor people in the long term aside from cause ridiculous rises in inflation rates.
    Inflation's low and the only way we've been able to pretend poverty is the same it's always been is by ignoring levels of absolute income.

  12. #952
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    You're hilariously oversimplifying an incredibly complicated mechanism.
    Am I oversimplifying? It sure doesn't feel like that.

    I take a monetarist approach to inflation because that makes the most sense to me. Price-fixing has a pretty poor history of working.

    I think after 74 years of the Minimum Wage, the left owes us a status report on how it's actually faring at increasing the standard of living for the poor, don't you?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-17 at 06:21 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Inflation's low and the only way we've been able to pretend poverty is the same it's always been is by ignoring levels of absolute income.
    Inflation is currently low. Look at what happened historically, though.

    The correlation is awfully strong between the minimum wage introduction/increases and high inflation.

  13. #953
    Am I oversimplifying? It sure doesn't feel like that.
    Sure you are. There are lots of factors for inflation. There are lots of factors for purchasing power. Lots of factors for poverty etc etc etc. If you want to say the minimum wage has failed because its a bad policy you need to account for all the factors involved in povery and inflation.

  14. #954
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Inflation is currently low. Look at what happened historically, though.
    Relative to what? Sometimes it's high and sometimes it's low. It's a lot more stable than it was before minimum wage though. I'm not at all suggesting that minimum wage stabilizes inflation, I think there's very little causal relationship between them.

  15. #955
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Relative to what? Sometimes it's high and sometimes it's low. It's a lot more stable than it was before minimum wage though. I'm not at all suggesting that minimum wage stabilizes inflation, I think there's very little causal relationship between them.
    The minimum wage didn't come along much later than the incorporation of the Federal Reserve, a body whose sole job is to control inflation. Which do you think is more likely to have eased the inflation of the 1800s?

  16. #956
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riidii View Post
    Hey!

    Let's be mad at Boeing now!

    "Boeing announced a major restructuring of its defense division on Wednesday that will cut 30 percent of management jobs from 2010 levels, close facilities in California and consolidate several business units to cut costs."

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/49729998/Boei...fense_Division

    I feel like I might be doing this for awhile. Damn those businesses.
    http://www.komonews.com/news/local/108966979.html
    EVERETT, Wash. (AP) - Boeing Co. is hiring machinists as it starts ramping up production.

    The Daily Herald of Everett reports that Boeing has added nearly 1,000 production workers in the past eight weeks, including about 190 it plans to hire Friday.

    The Machinists union says that would be the highest number of new machinists hired by Boeing in a single week since 2005.

    After slowing some production lines because of the recession, Boeing says it will speed up its 737, 777 and 747 programs next year.

  17. #957
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    The minimum wage didn't come along much later than the incorporation of the Federal Reserve, a body whose sole job is to control inflation. Which do you think is more likely to have eased the inflation of the 1800s?
    That's why I said I don't see a causal relationship between the minimum wage and inflation.

    Is there some evidence I'm unaware of for such a relationship? I'm always interested in looking at actual data.

  18. #958
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seran View Post
    its called finality, not spite. They were probably waiting to see if Obamacare would be overturned, now that isn't gonna happen. So, they acted accordingly.
    But, they are not waiting to see what happens nor did they know what exectly Romney was going to do with Obamacare, as he promised to keep provisions that were popular, like removal of pre-existing conditions. It's not finality, because it's preemptive.

  19. #959
    Scarab Lord Zhangfei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Sure you are. There are lots of factors for inflation. There are lots of factors for purchasing power. Lots of factors for poverty etc etc etc. If you want to say the minimum wage has failed because its a bad policy you need to account for all the factors involved in povery and inflation.
    Ignore Laize; we went at it about a week ago. He literally cannot conceive that these things have multiple effects.

    with the amount of money the US spends on student education they should be first in everything... but they are only first in spending and teacher strikes.
    American teachers are notoriously overworked and underpaid compared to teachers in more successful systems.
    Last edited by Zhangfei; 2012-11-17 at 06:35 AM.
    In fact as far as I'm aware the UK is the only european nation that outright bans guns for civilians.
    Shotguns I'll give you (provided you're allowed 12 and larger gauges... because I mean... come on...) but not .22s.
    This is why people ban guns. Gun supporters don't know what guns are.

  20. #960
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    People will do the same thing on a personal level as well. Blaming a politician for failure beats the shit out of introspection.
    Blaming a former administration for your own failures is popular as well.

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