CEO's blame layoffs and reduced hours on Obama re-election

[Felya]

Unemployment of 3.0%

Uhm... Yeah, but you have to live in ND and are competing for jobs with only twice the people my school had. There are a lot less jobs and people, per square mile of ND than cities in states you are comparing it to. You think their rate would be as low if people actually wanted to live there?

---------- Post added 2012-11-17 at 08:41 AM ----------

You are saying we need to kill off 66% of Brooklyn and spread them across a land mass the size of ND, the rate would be much different? I bet their schools are less crowded and receive less funding than CA and NJ, if only we could figure out how they do it.

[Zhangfei]

Uhm... Yeah, but you have to live in ND and are competing for jobs with only twice the people my school had. There are a lot less jobs and people, per square mile of ND than cities in states you are comparing it to. You think their rate would be as low if people actually wanted to live there?

North Dakota's entire population is only about 200k more than the municipal region of here, in Columbia, SC.

[jahasafrat]

Imagine that, CEOs and millionaire blaming the government for their shitty actions...

[Felya]

Shhhh he wants to keep calling me racist!

I disagree with you, but don't want to get into it. I don't think you are racist based on your views. I actually have family living there, still don't think what you said is racist.

---------- Post added 2012-11-17 at 08:48 AM ----------

North Dakota's entire population is only about 200k more than the municipal region of here, in Columbia, SC.

I've driven through it, there is nothing there. Endless signs for wall drug and the corn palace...

[Zhangfei]

I disagree with you, but don't want to get into it. I don't think you are racist based on your views. I actually have family living there, still don't think what you said is racist.

I am not a racist by any stretch of the imagination. I just hold occasionally unpopular views according to mainstream thinking

I've driven through it, there is nothing there. Endless signs for wall drug and the corn palace...

I just checked wiki and apparently my metropolitan region is about the same population as the entirety of ND. And SC isn't really that big.

[Felya]

I just checked wiki and apparently my metropolitan region is about the same population as the entirety of ND. And SC isn't really that big.

He is banned, this is more pointless than usual. Oh well, will pick up when he returns.

[Laize]

End of game. Respect the contract signed.

Christie didn't sign that contract. And he DID respect the contract. You're ignoring that part. You just don't like the resulting layoff of public servants.

So not all then.

You think 41% of a state budget is insufficient for a SINGLE department? I guess that means we can ramp up spending on the US Military!

Finland gives teachers a shit ton more respect. They're comparable to doctors, with doctor's power over the education of their students. They also teach about 60% of the time American teachers are, giving them far more time to prep for classes. The teaching colleges are considered prestigious and difficult to get into; 1 in 10 achieve it. When you start respecting teachers like this, then you'll get something like Finland. America simply does not. America has a drastic pay disparity between regions too - NJ may compare. Most states simply do not. It's why America's ed keeps slipping; not enough investment into teaching (not necessarily pay raise.)

I don't disagree that teaching should be a more respectable profession. It should also provide a living wage. But let's face it. There are a fucking trillion teachers clamoring over spots and huge numbers of them are filling substitute positions. There's no market to being a teacher and the laughable idea that you could just get a job working in the private sector earning 3x the salary makes us all laugh because we know many private schools have <20:1 ratios and a pile of resumes that you're at the bottom of.

So you're bringing up the Hong Kong economy to compare to SC's education system? Stop bloody stretching; Texas is in shit. Most red states are. Most blue states are far better off.

Yeah but the presence of Texas and countries like Hong Kong have me leaning on it being a correlation rather than a causation because being on the right DOES work if your state isn't a massive welfare recipient.

You can find that crap anywhere. What about the SC struggle for Haley's budget slashing and our imminent demise? (to be fair, it's been going on for decades)

Fighting unions, so what? What has that got to do with quality of education, where NJ is superb and the ONLY red state doing any good (because of her natural resources, not education system) is Texas?

You have no evidence that Texas is ONLY doing good because of oil (Which Louisiana and Oklahoma both have as well, FYI) nor are you even deigning to address the facts about NJ.

- We honored our contracts
- We don't have the money to continue along this path of ridiculous spending
- Education is the largest single outlay of our state budget at 41%
- We're the second most taxed state in the nation and we're already experiencing the results of that (Which includes a brain drain)

SO. Address these facts while still absolutely refusing to admit that the unions possibly (definitely in my and at least 53% of NJ's observation) are the cause?

Joyous day! You have statistics showing us how much "extra" money is spent because of unions and are willing to share, despite the fact that NJ is hugely successful compared to nearly every red state!

Yes, we all love how unsustainable practices can produce better-than-average results. Just look at this whole "energy" thing and how that's shaping up.

What the fuck good is even the top education system in the world if your state can't afford to keep it going?

[Zhangfei]

Christie didn't sign that contract. And he DID respect the contract. You're ignoring that part. You just don't like the resulting layoff of public servants.

Who the hell "likes" firing people for no reason based on their performance? Do you think teachers are the Borg?

You think 41% of a state budget is insufficient for a SINGLE department? I guess that means we can ramp up spending on the US Military!

For education? It clearly works?

I don't disagree that teaching should be a more respectable profession. It should also provide a living wage. But let's face it. There are a fucking trillion teachers clamoring over spots and huge numbers of them are filling substitute positions. There's no market to being a teacher and the laughable idea that you could just get a job working in the private sector earning 3x the salary makes us all laugh because we know many private schools have <20:1 ratios and a pile of resumes that you're at the bottom of.

WTF? Private schools are jokes, very few actually do comparably well in objective testing compared to public schools for one. Secondly, you're in NJ; your situation is far more positive. In SC there are plenty of spots that go begging because they are in shitholes. Third, of course you can't just make more money elsewhere. Jobs don't work like that. The point is like cities and states have lawyers, they should have teachers paid according to the skills they have acquired and the money they've spent attaining their degrees.

Yeah but the presence of Texas and countries like Hong Kong have me leaning on it being a correlation rather than a causation because being on the right DOES work if your state isn't a massive welfare recipient.

Texas' education fucking sucks and the state will sink without oil. Hong Kong has a British-style education system heavily funded by the government and with Confucian ideals, that heavily respect the value of education and teaching. I don't get the comparisons. Make America Confucian swimming on oil?

You have no evidence that Texas is ONLY doing good because of oil (Which Louisiana and Oklahoma both have as well, FYI) nor are you even deigning to address the facts about NJ.

I do have evidence that Texas' education sucks, they have to hire from outside, and that they're only one state that succeeds. Similar states are absolute shitholes for education.

- We honored our contracts
- We don't have the money to continue along this path of ridiculous spending
- Education is the largest single outlay of our state budget at 41%
- We're the second most taxed state in the nation and we're already experiencing the results of that (Which includes a brain drain)

To where? How is NJ "failing" compared to other states? What's the unemployment and flexibility of her progeny? Who gives a crap that X is the budget when it provides Y? It smacks of some arbitrary figure in your mind without any evidence to back it up.

SO. Address these facts while still absolutely refusing to admit that the unions possibly (definitely in my and at least 53% of NJ's observation) are the cause?

WHAT FACTS. You've given nothing about what unions cost in comparison to better and how the education system would succeed more without them.

The states without unions, funnily, tend to be turd at it with awful economies and low taxes meaning nothing changes. They just suck off the teat of the federal government over and over and over.

Yes, we all love how unsustainable practices can produce better-than-average results. Just look at this whole "energy" thing and how that's shaping up.

What the fuck good is even the top education system in the world if your state can't afford to keep it going?

But it does and all you've got is Christie giving typical right wing "all will fail" articles to back it up. Like I said; Haley says the same in SC despite our bloody terrible system!

[Laize]

Who the hell "likes" firing people for no reason based on their performance? Do you think teachers are the Borg?

Um... "not being able to afford them" is a pretty fucking good reason for firing them.

For education? It clearly works?

Define "works". Strapping a rocket to your back will let you go really fucking fast for a little while but it's unsustainable. Our education spending is unsustainable.

WTF? Private schools are jokes, very few actually do comparably well in objective testing compared to public schools for one. Secondly, you're in NJ; your situation is far more positive. In SC there are plenty of spots that go begging because they are in shitholes. Third, of course you can't just make more money elsewhere. Jobs don't work like that. The point is like cities and states have lawyers, they should have teachers paid according to the skills they have acquired and the money they've spent attaining their degrees.

You seem only concerned with quality, no matter the cost. It just doesn't seem to sink in that NJ can't afford to pay teachers more.

Texas' education fucking sucks and the state will sink without oil. Hong Kong has a British-style education system heavily funded by the government and with Confucian ideals, that heavily respect the value of education and teaching. I don't get the comparisons. Make America Confucian swimming on oil?

Oh so it's the culture now rather than policy. Okay. Yeah.

I do have evidence that Texas' education sucks, they have to hire from outside, and that they're only one state that succeeds. Similar states are absolute shitholes for education.

Hey, maybe hiring teachers from the outside will improve their education system in the long run. Wouldn't that be uncomfortably hilarious for the left if they got a top-level education system and were still RTW?

To where? How is NJ "failing" compared to other states? What's the unemployment and flexibility of her progeny? Who gives a crap that X is the budget when it provides Y? It smacks of some arbitrary figure in your mind without any evidence to back it up.

DUDE. WHY WON'T YOU ADDRESS THE FACT THAT THERE'S NO MONEY TO KEEP GOING DOWN AN UNSUSTAINABLE PATH?!

I'm actually done talking to you. I've provided you facts... real goddamn facts such as quantity we spend on education, tax rates and the fact that for nearly bankrupting ourselves our education system is "above average".

Quality has a cost, and sometimes that cost just isn't goddamn worth it. It's like buying a goddamn Apple computer when a Dell will do everything you need it to for 30% less.

It's lefties like you that make your entire party look like spendthrifts who don't care what something costs as long as you get it. Especially if that something is at someone else's expense. Even if Wells has nothing else going for him he'll acknowledge the need to find the money to pay for a program and that, if you can't afford a program you don't get said program.

And you know what? Despite whatever you might think about Christie's policies, they're working. They're working pretty fucking well, too. He's a Red governor elected in an overwhelmingly blue state and he's got a 53% approval rating so he's not going anywhere soon.

[Zhangfei]

Um... "not being able to afford them" is a pretty fucking good reason for firing them.

But they weren't at fault and they signed a contract in good faith.

Define "works". Strapping a rocket to your back will let you go really fucking fast for a little while but it's unsustainable. Our education spending is unsustainable.

According to you; I think it's suffering because of an economic problem from the free market. That should not affect public servants.

You seem only concerned with quality, no matter the cost. It just doesn't seem to sink in that NJ can't afford to pay teachers more.

It can't? Really? Seriously? Because Christie does a press conference or two?

Cutting education is asking to shrink your economy in the long run. It's an investment.

Oh so it's the culture now rather than policy. Okay. Yeah.

Don't bring in foreign cultures then! LOL

Hey, maybe hiring teachers from the outside will improve their education system in the long run. Wouldn't that be uncomfortably hilarious for the left if they got a top-level education system and were still RTW?

They won't though, because their education system and RTW prevents having a good education system.

DUDE. WHY WON'T YOU ADDRESS THE FACT THAT THERE'S NO MONEY TO KEEP GOING DOWN AN UNSUSTAINABLE PATH?!

According. To. What?

I'm actually done talking to you. I've provided you facts... real goddamn facts such as quantity we spend on education, tax rates and the fact that for nearly bankrupting ourselves our education system is "above average".

No, you've done the first and made zero connection to the second apart from "government spending money BAD" like a caveman.

Quality has a cost, and sometimes that cost just isn't goddamn worth it. It's like buying a goddamn Apple computer when a Dell will do everything you need to for 30% less.

And you're ignoring evidence that cutting education weakens a state. All the states that pay poorly, are RTW and fund weakly have terrible economies. The only example, out of dozens, you have is Texas and that's because they float on oil far more than any other state. Why aren't you comparing NJ to Mississippi? South Carolina? Alabama? Oklahoma? Arizona? Because they are all awful.

You want to cripple NJ's economy with your view that rejects reality, go for it. Just stop tricking yourself by clinging onto the hopes that Jersey Shore will hit upon a natural resource to sustain it.

It's lefties like you that make your entire party look like spendthrifts who don't care what something costs as long as you get it.

I don't have a party

Especially if that something is at someone else's expense.

I believe in a strong economy and feel education is the most vital step to it. You just want constant immediate fixes with zero patience.

Even if Wells has nothing else going for him he'll acknowledge the need to find the money to pay for a program and that, if you can't afford a program you don't get said program.

Cool story bro

And you know what? Despite whatever you might think about Christie's policies, they're working. They're working pretty fucking well, too. He's a Red governor elected in an overwhelmingly blue state and he's got a 53% approval rating so he's not going anywhere soon.

He gets to live off a superb education system set up by his predecessors. Of course he'll do reasonably well. My dog could too.

[Laize]

But they weren't at fault and they signed a contract in good faith.

Good faith my ass. Corzine (previous governor) fought the state legislature to make their contracts even CUSHIER. Neither he nor the teachers had any vested interest in the collective bargaining process which is supposed to be nowhere NEAR as one-sided as they have been.

According to you; I think it's suffering because of an economic problem from the free market. That should not affect public servants.

But it does, since the government purchases services from the private sector.

It can't? Really? Seriously? Because Christie does a press conference or two?

No, it can't "really, seriously" because our taxes are ludicrously high. You know my taxes for a 1/4 acre, 1 family house in a reasonable middle class area? $12000 property, 2.5% income, 7% sales. That's state alone. Our taxes, again, are stupid high. Raising them further is onerous on the NJ people. Especially just to satisfy bloodsucking unions who, thanks to the complete failure of the collective bargaining process (Which, again, even FDR opposed for public servants) got a 14% raise in 2010.

Cutting education is asking to shrink your economy in the long run. It's an investment.

No one's denying that, but you can't just assume that the teachers in NJ aren't ridiculously overpaid. Their total compensation is close to $85,000 after 15 years. For a high school teacher. That's fucking ABSURD.

They won't though, because their education system and RTW prevents having a good education system.

They look like they're on track to prove you exactly wrong. Let's watch.

According. To. What?

You know what. I'm done.

You apparently have no qualms about raising taxes on one of the most heavily taxed states in the nation. Our cost of living is already top tier and you want to make it higher so we can pay bloodsucking public unions (Who, I can't stress enough, even FDR denied the right to collective bargaining) their extortion money.

I'm so fucking glad Christie is in office to clean up this goddamn mess.

[Zhangfei]

Good faith my ass. Corzine (previous governor) fought the state legislature to make their contracts even CUSHIER. Neither he nor the teachers had any vested interest in the collective bargaining process which is supposed to be nowhere NEAR as one-sided as they have been.

And how does that inflict blame on any single bloody teacher who signs a bloody contract? If that's what is offered, that's what is offered.

But it does, since the government purchases services from the private sector.

Teachers and their schools aren't though...

No, it can't "really, seriously" because our taxes are ludicrously high. You know my taxes for a 1/4 acre, 1 family house in a reasonable middle class area? $12000 property, 2.5% income, 7% sales. That's state alone. Our taxes, again, are stupid high. Raising them further is onerous on the NJ people. Especially just to satisfy bloodsucking unions who, thanks to the complete failure of the collective bargaining process (Which, again, even FDR opposed for public servants) got a 14% raise in 2010.

I don't give a flying crap what FDR said. You're arguing people shouldn't seek good wages and security, the very underpinnings of society. You're blaming unions over and over with no figures at all. It's just rhetoric over and over. If NJ has bad taxation issues, that's NJ's fault - not the teachers. They're not the government. Nor are they inherently responsible for what they're offered.

No one's denying that, but you can't just assume that the teachers in NJ aren't ridiculously overpaid. Their total compensation is close to $85,000 after 15 years. For a high school teacher. That's fucking ABSURD.

On par with a lawyer. I find it morally acceptable.

They look like they're on track to prove you exactly wrong. Let's watch.

I see they're on track to failure, but you're right; our philosophising is just wanking into the wind. We don't know the future.

You know what. I'm done.

You apparently have no qualms about raising taxes on one of the most heavily taxed states in the nation. Our cost of living is already top tier and you want to make it higher so we can pay bloodsucking public unions (Who, I can't stress enough, even FDR denied the right to collective bargaining) their extortion money.

I'm so fucking glad Christie is in office to clean up this goddamn mess.

You know, governments can make cuts in other areas and/or take loans. I'm not insisting on raising taxes. I still don't get why FDR is involved in this conversation either.

[Deleted]

No one's denying that, but you can't just assume that the teachers in NJ aren't ridiculously overpaid. Their total compensation is close to $85,000 after 15 years. For a high school teacher. That's fucking ABSURD.

The average annual salary (not including compensation) for all public teachers in elementary and secondary (high school) education in New Jersey was $64,809 in 2010. Source

In my opinion, this is an even more absurd number than the one you're posting.

On par with a lawyer. I find it morally acceptable.

Morally acceptable? Is that how wages should be determined?

[Laize]

And how does that inflict blame on any single bloody teacher who signs a bloody contract? If that's what is offered, that's what is offered.



Teachers and their schools aren't though...



I don't give a flying crap what FDR said. You're arguing people shouldn't seek good wages and security, the very underpinnings of society. You're blaming unions over and over with no figures at all. It's just rhetoric over and over. If NJ has bad taxation issues, that's NJ's fault - not the teachers. They're not the government. Nor are they inherently responsible for what they're offered.



On par with a lawyer. I find it morally acceptable.



I see they're on track to failure, but you're right; our philosophising is just wanking into the wind. We don't know the future.



You know, governments can make cuts in other areas and/or take loans. I'm not insisting on raising taxes. I still don't get why FDR is involved in this conversation either.

FDR is involved because despite being the poster boy for the left, he opposed unions in the public sector.

He felt that unions for public servants should have had to propose their agenda to the legislature and have their pay legislated. I agree. That happens to be the only way "collective bargaining" is remotely feasible within the public sector.

[Zhangfei]

Morally acceptable? Is that how wages should be determined?

When it comes to the amount of education gained and the use to society, yes.

FDR is involved because despite being the poster boy for the left, he opposed unions in the public sector.

He felt that unions for public servants should have had to propose their agenda to the legislature and have their pay legislated. I agree. That happens to be the only way "collective bargaining" is remotely feasible within the public sector.

Alright I guess, I just don't care about him anymore than any other politician and still don't quite get why his views are being brought up.

[Laize]

The average annual salary (not including compensation) for all public teachers in elementary and secondary (high school) education in New Jersey was $64,809 in 2010. Source

In my opinion, this is an even more absurd number than the one you're posting.

Morally acceptable? Is that how wages should be determined?

I actually thought that salary number was lower.

I know their total benefits package includes full vision, dental and medical 100% subsidized by the state as well as a 100% subsidized pension fund.

Oh, and 3 months off every year.

[belfpala]

Pardon me... as someone who has a double BS in Physics and Math, and who has several years of experience teaching at the University level of both: why the fuck shouldn't we be paying teachers who are as qualified as me at least as much as I make at my actual profession, which has nothing to do with either of my degrees? We're losing the best people. The best people should be teaching, at least part time, so that we can get the next generation of best people. Right now, that's basically impossible.

[Laize]

Pardon me... as someone who has a double BS in Physics and Math, and who has several years of experience teaching at the University level of both: why the fuck shouldn't we be paying teachers who are as qualified as me at least as much as I make at my actual profession, which has nothing to do with either of my degrees? We're losing the best people. The best people should be teaching, at least part time, so that we can get the next generation of best people. Right now, that's basically impossible.

You know what?

I actually wouldn't mind paying teachers what they're worth as long as their contracts were legislated by our elected bodies rather than dictated by their union representatives.

[Zhangfei]

You know what?

I actually wouldn't mind paying teachers what they're worth as long as their contracts were legislated by our elected bodies rather than dictated by their union representatives.

I wouldn't mind that if teachers could trust their elected bodies. But history has shown they can't be trusted.

[Laize]

I wouldn't mind that if teachers could trust their elected bodies. But history has shown they can't be trusted.

Well the alternative of allowing their representatives to negotiate their compensation hasn't been working so fucking well for the states of California and New Jersey.

I think a law is in order that repeals public sector unions' collective bargaining rights and I'd rather eviscerate the education system for another year than see another round of raises on the highest paid teachers in the nation.