[BM] Hit and Exp: why you don't have to cap them

[Obamatheone]

What does this have to do with your comment about passive damage? I don't recall anyone questioning that 1% crit is not a 1% damage increase.

He stated

"since both our white and yellow attacks can crit, 1% crit gives pretty much exactly 1% increase in dps"

I stated this was false, see above proof.

"The reason for this is the majority of our damage is yellow"

I simply stated a lot of our dmg is passive.
Nearly half as I recall, maybe 40%?, but I don't have my dps gear for sim to run.

Then he somehow combined the two and questioned whether auto-atks crit in my game.

---------- Post added 2012-11-12 at 02:17 AM ----------

This is the actual vs relative argument. I was using actual, you are using relative. I think you are stating it very poorly though.

Yah, like I said, math is frowned upon here.

[Deleted]

The chance to miss is exactly the same everytime you hit.

[SSHA778]

Yah, like I said, math is frowned upon here.

No, there's a reason. That's like saying getting a new weapon has diminishing returns relative to the last time you received a weapon. Of course it does, but is it significant? No.

[SnorlaxJeng]

Since you brought up the Undying thing, seriously was Naxx even hard in the first place? Totem plugging slimes on frogger hard? I ran pass frogger countless times with 800ms. Jeez, if you're so proud with your Undying meaning you claim that period of time you're hardcore at least show us some current Heroic Ulduars pre-nerf or ToGC 45+/50 attempts left. If not .... well...

Back to the subject matter. Not hit/exp cap might or might not get your killed, but it will definitely get your raid killed for being so low on DPS as a tank. Having a tank doing 18-22k DPS vs 55k tank DPS on Garajal is big. So what if you have that much haste? If you miss your skills you waste GCD, you waste Energy, you waste damage, you waste even more Energy if you're close to energy cap.

Even say lady luck is on your side you manage to land most of your Chi generators what then? Expel Harm has CD, Guard has CD, Tier 3 skills Chi wave has CD, Zen Sphere is a waste if you activate it early, Chi Burst has cast time which will cause closer energy cap. So just BoK whole day everyday? Yeah it misses you get shuffle I get that but...

Get this right if you tank with Hit/Exp 7.5% respectively you will know that Melee/Keg Smash/Blackout Kick will be your top 3 damage dealers as tank. On an average raid encounter, as a brewmaster (472 iLvl) I'm doing 17-20k Heals, putting up 300k Guards on raid members constantly dishing out 45-55k DPS. That is expected of a tank, doing anything less than that you can't even consider yourself as hardcore or even knowing your class.

Wanna have you skills miss endlessly on Garajal banish phase without a Touch of death? Comfortable getting the Tiki down to one hit left and go help clear other spirits and kill it when 1 or 2 seconds left on instant death timer, will you have the confidence to do it without being hit capped?

Are you confident solo tanking Qiang without stack not being hit capped not getting that Guard up on time cause your last Chi generator missed? Fine maybe you're not as crazy, HoF first boss try rolling over platforms with healers still far from you, your Keg Smash misses you have no chi for Guard nor Chi Wave bosses smashes you silly.

Switch taunt on Stone Guard, yes taunt don't miss but what happens if after you taunt your attacks miss? And the other tank does a massive self heal and regains aggro?
That Keg Smash not hitting Sparks on Elegon and you just let that Spark reach the edge with 50k-100k left. Not getting your Chi when needed for Guard during Gas phase Will.

The list goes on of so many possible FUBARs that not being hit capped can screw you over. No being hit capped is the same as not being Def capped in the olden days. Yeah you don't always get critted but if you do, "Hey healers prepare for the a heart attack, and maybe a home run for the raid yo!"

...Seriously, monks are active mitigation tank. Remember back when the days on Death Knight tanks where missing a Death Strike gives nothing in return, for now it is the same as monk but worst, because you will just recast death strike then but monk we need to generate the Chi and then use mitigation.



Edit: Forgot to mention missing your Chi Wave breaks the whole chain If I'm not mistaken. Can someone confirm with me on that?

[Obamatheone]

No, there's a reason. That's like saying getting a new weapon has diminishing returns relative to the last time you received a weapon. Of course it does, but is it significant? No.

It is significant, because it diminishes the value of crit rating for dps.
This is why you sim your character when you get upgrades to find out the new stat weights. These values change, and its not always an x>y>z.

[SSHA778]

Back to the subject matter. Not hit/exp cap might or might not get your killed, but it will definitely get your raid killed for being so low on DPS as a tank. Having a tank doing 18-22k DPS vs 55k tank DPS on Garajal is big.

The range difference you list here is mathematically impossible for the sole difference to be hit/expertise by a long shot.

Let's say you did 150 DPS and you are fully hit/expertise capped. If you were to drop all that hit/expertise (and somehow not gain/lose any DPS from other stat allocation), you would do roughly 116 DPS, or about 78% of the capped damage.

22k / 0.78 = 28k DPS.

Most of the situations you listed can be solved by banking chi: taunt swaps, healers out of range, etc.--that is, looking ahead.

It is significant, because it diminishes the value of crit rating for dps.

As does just about every other stat. Some diminish more rapidly, though, but just because something exists doesn't mean it's significant.

[Obamatheone]

Huh, wtf are you even talking about not significant? I just proved to you it was significant in stat weight calcs.

[SnorlaxJeng]

The range difference you list here is mathematically impossible for the sole difference to be hit/expertise by a long shot.

Let's say you did 150 DPS and you are fully hit/expertise capped. If you were to drop all that hit/expertise (and somehow not gain/lose any DPS from other stat allocation), you would do roughly 116 DPS, or about 78% of the capped damage.

22k / 0.78 = 28k DPS.

Most of the situations you listed can be solved by banking chi: taunt swaps, healers out of range, etc.--that is, looking ahead.



As does just about every other stat. Some diminish more rapidly, though, but just because something exists doesn't mean it's significant.

Yeah... Banking Chi will make critical moment hits to actually hit (Gara Tiki ; Elegon Sparks)? IF hit/exp cap was not much of a difference why do I always see non-capped tanks dealing WAY WAY WAY lower DPS than what a capped tank would pull?

Bank all you want, without caps you can never confidently be able to pull a Chi wave followed by a Guard. How does banking chi help if your hits misses right after a taunt swap?

In the end of the day? Why drive a car without breaks when you could drive one with breaks even if you can stop a car by rolling to a halt. Because there is always a slope which you have to stop climbing or descending, cause there is always a traffic light which may turn red, cause there may always be a kid dashing across the street. Please think of the kids, don't run them down, don't run your raid down think of the other raid members just because you wanted to live on the edge.


Also if you missed Keg Smash on AoE pulls? What Spinning Crane Kick? You'll definitely hit energy cap and take some time to generate the Chi, well unless you prefer SCK cancel it then SCK it to sacrifice damage just to generate those 2 Chi's faster with some sort of AoE threat.

[SSHA778]

Huh, wtf are you even talking about not significant? I just proved to you it was significant in stat weight calcs.

Let's say I have 2 stats, stat "A" and stat "B."

Before an upgrade, they're worth 300 and 400 points, respectively. That is, B is 33% better than A. If after that upgrade, they both diminish and are worth 260 and 340 points, respectively, stat "B" is only 30% better than stat "A." Since both stats are diminishing, it reduces the harshness of the effect of the DR when compared relatively (which is how you derive stat weights).

Thus, even though they both diminish, it may not actually be significant.

The reason why you re-run stat weights for your specific gear is because your specific gear very heavily influences the weights. If you heavily favor a particular stat, it may positively interact with another stat and over-inflate it to your advantage (although another allocation could be better altogether), like haste inflating just about every other stat. It's not because haste is experiencing diminishing returns--it's because it's enhancing everything else. You can say that it's "relatively" diminishing, and I'd buy it, but it's not because of the pure diminishing returns on haste itself.

Yeah... Banking Chi will make critical moment hits to actually hit (Gara Tiki ; Elegon Sparks)? IF hit/exp cap was not much of a difference why do I always see non-capped tanks dealing WAY WAY WAY lower DPS than what a capped tank would pull?

You would need to look at their ability usage instead of making a sweeping generalization.

Bank all you want, without caps you can never confidently be able to pull a Chi wave followed by a Guard. How does banking chi help if your hits misses right after a taunt swap?

By stating "confidence," you've already shown me that you personally highly value the reliability. That's a personal weight, which math won't factor and I won't discuss because you'll find proponents for both sides with nothing but anecdotal evidence to back themselves up.

As for banking chi, it gives you more opportunities to front-load your threat, which is all that matters on a taunt-swap.

Also if you missed Keg Smash on AoE pulls? What Spinning Crane Kick? You'll definitely hit energy cap and take some time to generate the Chi, well unless you prefer SCK cancel it then SCK it to sacrifice damage just to generate those 2 Chi's faster with some sort of AoE threat.

So what? It missed. Continue on with life and the rest of your rotation. Threat is a joke, and you can generally bank chi before an AoE pack to get Stagger/Guard up immediately. Not having Weakened Blows up won't be your doom.

[SnorlaxJeng]

Tanking is about reliability, safety is about reliability, if it wasn't Police officers would be given Full Auto SMGs running around town.

"Hey it guns down baddies more efficiently, but don't rely on it to always hit on the baddies, some property damage and lost of life, can't be that bad right? Baddies die anyways." Same deal you get lawsuits like how your raid members aren't going to like the erratic dependability on your side.

Sweeping generalization or not, before hit/exp reforge I'm doing 18k after reforge to cap I'm doing 24k tell me if dropping all those hit/exp is capable to provide the 33% increase? Even if you do point to point transfer them to haste it doesn't happen, which in real scenario you can't even get more than what 5% haste even given a double bonus you're only looking at 10% increase of 1.8k which will sit you at 20k.

Threat is a joke, try missing when everyone pre-pots and pop CD off engagement and come back and tell me how it feels playing pinball. Banking Chi to BoK which misses yeah a a lot of threat generation done there....

Yeah continue with your rotation you lost a 1mill Threat generator only to replace it with 2 100k Threat generators, good luck holding that pre-pot/CD hard cast Chaos Bolt.


We are not pulling situations out of our asses, things like these happen. The Grey Line is one which tanks should never trend upon.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Edit: Forgot to mention missing your Chi Wave breaks the whole chain If I'm not mistaken. Can someone confirm with me on that?

Chi Wave does indeed stop if it misses.

[The Madgod]

Threat is a joke, try missing when everyone pre-pots and pop CD off engagement and come back and tell me how it feels playing pinball. Banking Chi to BoK which misses yeah a a lot of threat generation done there....

Yeah continue with your rotation you lost a 1mill Threat generator only to replace it with 2 100k Threat generators, good luck holding that pre-pot/CD hard cast Chaos Bolt.


We are not pulling situations out of our asses, things like these happen. The Grey Line is one which tanks should never trend upon.

We do have a taunt, you know.

I don't really want to get into the argument, but I do want to come in and say that, as a player who's roughly in the top 300-400 in the world, that you're making misses appear MUCH more catastrophic than they really are. A miss or a dodge is rarely ever going to be the difference between life or death.

The math's there. Really, this is a choice between comfort and output. If you prefer output at the cost of having to manage misses, then you're probably going to end up doing better, but it's not an insanely big deal if you go for some of the hit expertise caps for comfort, as long as you know that mathematically, in the end you're losing.

Talking as if one miss during the start of a pull will fuck it all up is just pointless exaggeration. We have tools to handle these situations. Really, I can tell you right now, from intimate personal experience, missing attacks is NOT the end of the world. I don't think I've ever had a wipe yet that was because I couldn't hit with some abilities.

[Obamatheone]

I have seen wipes happen due to tank missing plenty of times, and I am sure you all have too. The RL gets frustrated and tells everyone to give the tank a couple seconds, and you go again.

[The Madgod]

I have seen wipes happen due to tank missing plenty of times, and I am sure you all have too. The RL gets frustrated and tells everyone to give the tank a couple seconds, and you go again.

It's a pretty big assumption that these wipes are caused by tank misses, when it's far more likely it's due to some other factor, such as a DPS actually pulling first, or a DPS prematurely attacking a boss prior to a point where threat can actually be established in a clean way.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm not saying it's impossible. However, it's extremely unlikely to be the only reason and extremely likely to be the PRIMARY reason a wipe happens at that stage in a fight. Seriously. Can't taunt work? The likelyhood that you would get a miss, then taunt, then miss enough so that the DPS out-threat you after the taunt ends is extremely low.

Hell, I can't even remember the last time a WIPE actually occurred from a DPS gaining initial agro... usually it's just the DPS dies and the raid makes fun of him.

[Obamatheone]

So now you are telling me what I have and have no experienced? That is quite funny...

Regardless, you are at best arguing semantics.
Maybe the DPS attacked 0.1 seconds early!!!
Big whoop, still wouldn't be a problem if the tank didn't miss.

The fact of the matter is it does happen, but I won't get exp capped to prevent it either. Nothing is completely safe, and we have to make sure we understand there are risks in decisions. Missing 22.5% chance is like throwing safety to the wind altogether and is not advisable imo. Not only are you losing safety in numerous situations and relying on RNG, but your raid awareness will be complete and utter shit.

Lets see how much your 0.0(lolz) amount of dodge reduces your dmg when you frustratingly can't land a jab, and stand in the fire an extra second or two.

[Yoshimiko]

To reflect back to the multiple miss argument:
Assuming a 22.5% chance to miss, That's a 5% chance of missing twice in a row, and a 1% chance of missing 3 times in a row. ignoring everything else, That's 3 gcds lost entirely. That's 4 seconds longer for you to get up your shuffle than a person who has hit and expertise cap. That'll happen 1% of the time you need to put up shuffle. Yes, you could play around it, yes there are ways to avoid this, but there will be occasions where you will get on a missing spree, but why? Is it worth giving up consistency for 1chi/minute?

We do have a taunt, you know.

I don't really want to get into the argument, but I do want to come in and say that, as a player who's roughly in the top 300-400 in the world, that you're making misses appear MUCH more catastrophic than they really are. A miss or a dodge is rarely ever going to be the difference between life or death.

The math's there. Really, this is a choice between comfort and output. If you prefer output at the cost of having to manage misses, then you're probably going to end up doing better, but it's not an insanely big deal if you go for some of the hit expertise caps for comfort, as long as you know that mathematically, in the end you're losing.

Talking as if one miss during the start of a pull will fuck it all up is just pointless exaggeration. We have tools to handle these situations. Really, I can tell you right now, from intimate personal experience, missing attacks is NOT the end of the world. I don't think I've ever had a wipe yet that was because I couldn't hit with some abilities.

Anecdotal but I've actually had a raid boss(Feludias, from Bastion of Twilight) be practically untouchable. Threw my shield(was a pally) - missed, Crusader strike - missed, taunted, auto swing - missed, judgement - missed, secondary taunt, crusader strike miss... And then a raid boss ran rampant around the raid. It was kind of funny, I have it recorded somewhere or another too.

But yes, I do agree here - that this is a fluke case, and gearing specifically for that..is ridiculous. My larger concern is with a mixture of: tank dps(where it matters), BOK uptime(I personally don't refresh it until a few seconds are remaining - but this could easily be worked around with a simple buffer), and opener(not threat, but chi generation). I've seen a few fights where missing my first chi just set everything down hill. Fully recoverable, mind you, but it starts a bad trend.

[The Madgod]

So now you are telling me what I have and have no experienced? That is quite funny...

Regardless, you are at best arguing semantics.
Maybe the DPS attacked 0.1 seconds early!!!
Big whoop, still wouldn't be a problem if the tank didn't miss.

The fact of the matter is it does happen, but I won't get exp capped to prevent it either. Nothing is completely safe, and we have to make sure we understand there are risks in decisions. Missing 22.5% chance is like throwing safety to the wind altogether and is not advisable imo. Not only are you losing safety in numerous situations, but your raid awareness will be complete and utter shit.

I'm willing to bet that your groups wiped not because of a tank miss but because of something completely different.

Your numbers are also disingenuous. I don't even think it's possible to have both 0% hit and 0% expertise. Of course, that's a slight technicality. Even if I don't try to get any of it, I could be sitting at about 8% hit and expertise total. So really it's not 22.5%, it's more like 14.5%. Even then, my raid awareness is not complete and utter shit. It might be for someone else, but I'm quite comfortable. Even in heroic content.

And again... What the hell happened to our taunt? It's like it doesn't even exist. Seriously, we have tools for these sorts of things. If your raid wipes because a tank loses agro due to misses, it's probably more likely that he forgot to use the ability he should know like the back of his hand than the actual missed attack.

To reflect back to the multiple miss argument:
Assuming a 22.5% chance to miss, That's a 5% chance of missing twice in a row, and a 1% chance of missing 3 times in a row. ignoring everything else, That's 3 gcds lost entirely. That's 4 seconds longer for you to get up your shuffle than a person who has hit and expertise cap. That'll happen 1% of the time you need to put up shuffle. Yes, you could play around it, yes there are ways to avoid this, but there will be occasions where you will get on a missing spree, but why? Is it worth giving up consistency for 1chi/minute?

Well assuming you even have 3% for each, that's now only 16.5% chance to miss, which means a 2.7% chance to miss twice in a row and a 0.45% chance of missing three times in a row.

With my example of 8% total, it becomes a 2.1% chance to miss twice in a row and a 0.3% chance to miss three times in a row.

Now you're starting to see "once in a blue moon" situations.

As well, for me, if I have approximately 8% hit / expertise, that means I can get roughly 2 chi per minute and extra EB stacks, so it's a bit better than you're thinking. With the higher chi generation, it doesn't matter if you miss, since you can just quickly get the chi again. And, as we continue to gear, we'll continue to get more and more passive hit and expertise, so this becomes even LESS of an issue.

Anecdotal but I've actually had a raid boss(Feludias, from Bastion of Twilight) be practically untouchable. Threw my shield(was a pally) - missed, Crusader strike - missed, taunted, auto swing - missed, judgement - missed, secondary taunt, crusader strike miss... And then a raid boss ran rampant around the raid. It was kind of funny, I have it recorded somewhere or another too.

But yes, I do agree here - that this is a fluke case, and gearing specifically for that..is ridiculous. My larger concern is with a mixture of: tank dps(where it matters), BOK uptime(I personally don't refresh it until a few seconds are remaining - but this could easily be worked around with a simple buffer), and opener(not threat, but chi generation). I've seen a few fights where missing my first chi just set everything down hill. Fully recoverable, mind you, but it starts a bad trend.

Those are certainly valid concerns, but at the same time you do say it's recoverable and as long as you get the chi, which really is only delayed a couple seconds at worst, then you'll get the shuffle uptime. Tank DPS is certainly the most serious thing on this list, at least in my opinion, and it's certainly true. At the same time, however, tank DPS, while now fairly important, is not the thing you want to focus on. You want to focus on your mitigation. DPS is a side project in comparison.

[Obamatheone]

Pretending perfection only dumbs down the conversation. The fact of the matter is that hit/exp increase raid awareness, and that is true for absolutely anyone. It is hard at best to quantify as if differs for everyone, but to ignore it completely is disingenuous at best.

Qualitative concerns are often just as important, if not more than qualitative.
Like Mastery for progression.

[The Madgod]

But of course.

However, you also say "your raid awareness will be complete and utter shit" if you don't focus on helping your hit and expertise caps, which is once again unnecessary hyperbole.

Regardless, the math has stated that in terms of min-maxing, you will find that expertise and hit caps are not necessary.

Of course, mastery is also, in terms of min-maxing, very much inferior in regards to damage taken compared to other stats, which ties perfectly into my core message for this thread;

I do not say that not going into expertise and hit is the only way to go. I am merely here to dispel the rather prevalent illusion that missing is a gigantic OH SHIT moment. It really is not. It complicates matters, but it isn't catastrophic. Hit and expertise are good; they have their uses. The same with mastery. However if you are min-maxing for throughput, you will find them to be lacking. If you're looking for stability, whether it be in ability usage or damage intake, then they are superior.

[Yoshimiko]

Those are certainly valid concerns, but at the same time you do say it's recoverable and as long as you get the chi, which really is only delayed a couple seconds at worst, then you'll get the shuffle uptime. Tank DPS is certainly the most serious thing on this list, at least in my opinion, and it's certainly true. At the same time, however, tank DPS, while now fairly important, is not the thing you want to focus on. You want to focus on your mitigation. DPS is a side project in comparison.

I disagree with your idea of dps being a side project. For my raid - I'm always in the top 3(of a 10 man). Well, Almost always. Without my dps - Elagon would have been a much different beast. Without my dps I don't see us downing Will. 25 man Hardcore heroic raiding guild? I agree. 10 man casual raiding guild? I can't really agree with you. I am, of course, first and foremost a Tank. If utility is what the fight calls for - I'll do what's needed. However if DPS is what the fight calls for, I expect a MASSIVE 15% miss rate will put a huge damper on my 60-70k Dps. We're cutting these enrage timers close enough - I can't afford to drop my dps by 10%+.

But of course.

However, you also say "your raid awareness will be complete and utter shit" if you don't focus on helping your hit and expertise caps, which is once again unnecessary hyperbole.

Regardless, the math has stated that in terms of min-maxing, you will find that expertise and hit caps are not necessary.

Of course, mastery is also, in terms of min-maxing, very much inferior in regards to damage taken compared to other stats, which ties perfectly into my core message for this thread;

I do not say that not going into expertise and hit is the only way to go. I am merely here to dispel the rather prevalent illusion that missing is a gigantic OH SHIT moment. It really is not. It complicates matters, but it isn't catastrophic. Hit and expertise are good; they have their uses. The same with mastery. However if you are min-maxing for throughput, you will find them to be lacking. If you're looking for stability, whether it be in ability usage or damage intake, then they are superior.

I've touched on this before - but I think this is a point where min maxing fails. Mastery, at least in my opinion, has its place. Will definitely springs to mind on this. With all of the down time - you'll pretty much have Elusive brew every melee phase. BoK is VERY easy to keep up here. Smoothing out the damage with Mastery is very useful. Chugging Purifying brews down to cleanse em off asap. That being said I think STamina is a better stat overall for this fight - but I still think it could have a place here if you built a second set of gear with mastery/haste, rather than haste/crit.

I think min maxing has its place, but always take it with a grain of salt.