TOR vs. Pre-CU and NGE for Galaxies. Should they just have re-made Galaxies with...

[gabrield]

SWTOR was easily a better game than SWG, in fact SWTOR is a better game then pretty much all other MMOs on the market and it's a shame people didn't give it a chance to develop instead of expecting 8 years worth of accrued content upon release.

In fact recently there has been a number of MMOs which have not done as well as they should have due to the elephant in the room which is destroying the MMO market.

[Deleted]

SWG was a horrible horrible game, theres a reason it shut down with barely anyone playing it in its last 3 or 4 years.

so yeah, no on anything from SWG and for the record pre NGE was just as bad as post NGE, dont let anyone else tel lyou other wise.

[Psychlon]

SWG was a horrible horrible game, theres a reason it shut down with barely anyone playing it in its last 3 or 4 years.

so yeah, no on anything from SWG and for the record pre NGE was just as bad as post NGE, dont let anyone else tel lyou other wise.

That's not correct.

Pre-NGE:

33 classes
free 252?! skillpoints which could be spend however you like (cross classes like 2-3 fighter classes or 1 figher and 1 crafterclass)
anytime able to respec
Crafter would craft the best gear

Post-NGE

9 classes
fixed levelpath with "Achievement Skill Tree" (you would have to have 2 characters to have a fighter and a crafter)
no free respec/ impossible (with only 2-3 character slots)
Best gear to be found in "Heroic" zones....

That's just not comparable and despite your opinion, the main reason why everyone ran away from the game... not to mention that SOE released an expansion only weeks?! prior to the NGE to catch the last bigger amount of money they would see until the server were shut down.

Pre NGE and Post NGE is just not comparable in any way. Two entirely different games.

[Deleted]

Pre NGE and Post NGE is just not comparable in any way. Two entirely different games.

i didnt say they were comparable, i said they were as bad as each other.

And FYI more people left SWG before then NGE then after, the NGE was a response to the bleeding subs, not the cause.

Ive been trying to look for my last SWG post, SWG suffers from the worse rose titned specs fans every, they constantly talk up everything while leaving out all the horrible parts of it, and they were numerous.

[Armourboy]

When it comes to SWG, it had some things about it that you still can't in an MMO today and those things are what people want so much in a modern MMO.

Customization out the ying yang. One of the best things they did do was give you an insane amount of freedom with how you chose to play. Yes it created an unsolveable balance nightmare, but people love playing as a tailor pistoleer, or a Pikeman chef, or heck even the TKM/Fencer builds. You could be all out combat one day, and more of a money maker the next, it was just a matter of what you wanted to do.

The crafting system. Why on earth someone hasn't duplicated it is beyond me, it just blows my mind that in todays MMO's we are still stuck doing the same basic crafting thats been around for the last 20 years. Its boring and unless it has something super OP its completely worthless. I would bet if you talked to most people that played it the first thing that would come out of their mouth is something about the crafting system or economy.

The other biggy is the social system. You were required to interact and depend on others. Whether it was healing, bulk mats for crafters, a guy to repair that gear, or just your favorite dancer in the cantina you interacted with people. While SWG did have its share of asses, they generally were on a short leash. At some point they were going to need something from someone, and if your name was mud then good luck. Everyone had their short list of other players they relied on for something, and it brought the server together. No other MMO has managed to do that so well.

Just for me, the perfect MMO would be Pre-CU SWG with the bugs fixed, things balanced out a bit better, and Jedi turned into basically its own mini game ( basically you fight other jedi and maybe BH's, and can interact in PvE with other players but thats about it). Added to that would have been things like quests, not just for leveling but to be updated to give the game a direction and flow. Things like raids could be added for awesome stuff that didn't give you a massive advantage ( Jet pack is still probably the most epic thing I've ever seen crafted in an MMO) and were fun.

Its obviously just my opinion, but to me you really can't say the Sandbox games just have a smaller base. Why? Cause name the last really well done Sandbox game. TBH I don't really think anyone truely knows just how good they could do because we haven't truely had a good one.

I've said it for years though, the company that figures out how to combine sandbox and theme park into one game and it work well, will make the numbers WoW has seen seem small.

---------- Post added 2012-11-12 at 12:22 PM ----------

i didnt say they were comparable, i said they were as bad as each other.

And FYI more people left SWG before then NGE then after, the NGE was a response to the bleeding subs, not the cause.

Ive been trying to look for my last SWG post, SWG suffers from the worse rose titned specs fans every, they constantly talk up everything while leaving out all the horrible parts of it, and they were numerous.

Actually we don't, we more than anyone else knows just how bad the game was. The problem is so many people try to throw the entire thing out like every single aspect of it was bad. The stuff they got right is what people talk about today fondly. Trust me, we remember just how bad the rubberbanding was, or how stupid it was that you could buff up and solo anything, or that you could pretty much build and untouchable fighter. We remember that they had to remove corpse running because it was so buggy they could never get it to work and we remember the servers going down 40 times a week because they were a mess.

We don't overlook that stuff, we just don't point it out because by now everyone should know how bad it was because they game is now gone.

As far as the reason for the NGE you are right, they did do it because they were losing subs. However they were losing subs because after 3 years they had failed to deliver on 90% of the promises they had made. The NGE just took it from a slow death to instant death. It cost them roughly 120k subs practically over night, roughly 75% of what player base they did have.

[Deleted]

When it comes to SWG, it had some things about it that you still can't in an MMO today and those things are what people want so much in a modern MMO.

Customization out the ying yang. One of the best things they did do was give you an insane amount of freedom with how you chose to play. Yes it created an unsolveable balance nightmare, but people love playing as a tailor pistoleer, or a Pikeman chef, or heck even the TKM/Fencer builds. You could be all out combat one day, and more of a money maker the next, it was just a matter of what you wanted to do.

The crafting system. Why on earth someone hasn't duplicated it is beyond me, it just blows my mind that in todays MMO's we are still stuck doing the same basic crafting thats been around for the last 20 years. Its boring and unless it has something super OP its completely worthless. I would bet if you talked to most people that played it the first thing that would come out of their mouth is something about the crafting system or economy.

The other biggy is the social system. You were required to interact and depend on others. Whether it was healing, bulk mats for crafters, a guy to repair that gear, or just your favorite dancer in the cantina you interacted with people. While SWG did have its share of asses, they generally were on a short leash. At some point they were going to need something from someone, and if your name was mud then good luck. Everyone had their short list of other players they relied on for something, and it brought the server together. No other MMO has managed to do that so well.

Just for me, the perfect MMO would be Pre-CU SWG with the bugs fixed, things balanced out a bit better, and Jedi turned into basically its own mini game ( basically you fight other jedi and maybe BH's, and can interact in PvE with other players but thats about it). Added to that would have been things like quests, not just for leveling but to be updated to give the game a direction and flow. Things like raids could be added for awesome stuff that didn't give you a massive advantage ( Jet pack is still probably the most epic thing I've ever seen crafted in an MMO) and were fun.

Its obviously just my opinion, but to me you really can't say the Sandbox games just have a smaller base. Why? Cause name the last really well done Sandbox game. TBH I don't really think anyone truely knows just how good they could do because we haven't truely had a good one.

I've said it for years though, the company that figures out how to combine sandbox and theme park into one game and it work well, will make the numbers WoW has seen seem small.

---------- Post added 2012-11-12 at 12:22 PM ----------




Actually we don't, we more than anyone else knows just how bad the game was. The problem is so many people try to throw the entire thing out like every single aspect of it was bad. The stuff they got right is what people talk about today fondly. Trust me, we remember just how bad the rubberbanding was, or how stupid it was that you could buff up and solo anything, or that you could pretty much build and untouchable fighter. We remember that they had to remove corpse running because it was so buggy they could never get it to work and we remember the servers going down 40 times a week because they were a mess.

We don't overlook that stuff, we just don't point it out because by now everyone should know how bad it was because they game is now gone.

oh its fair dues if some do, most however, dont, they like to point out how it was the apex of MMOs, Best MMO ever ive seen mooted on here this very day, its far from it.

And even the plus points you point out above (social interaction, crafting) had lots of bad points in them, Coruscant cantinas AFK dancers, needing stims to lock you into your armour, crafting was limited, it was the composite clone wars, hologrind absolutely killed the economy with armour wearers and weaponsmiths knocking out sub par crap, left right and center.

The only good point was the material quality system (i made my living selling materials and power), everything else was bad or badly implemented, and even the good things got spoilt with SOEs choices see. hologrind.

[Armourboy]

oh its fair dues if some do, most however, dont, they like to point out how it was the apex of MMOs, Best MMO ever ive seen mooted on here this very day, its far from it.

And even the plus points you point out above (social interaction, crafting) had lots of bad points in them, Coruscant cantinas AFK dancers, needing stims to lock you into your armour, crafting was limited, it was the composite clone wars, hologrind absolutely killed the economy with armour wearers and weaponsmiths knocking out sub par crap, left right and center.

The only good point was the material quality system (i made my living selling materials and power), everything else was bad or badly implemented, and even the good things got spoilt with SOEs choices see. hologrind.

I wont disagree with that, sadly what they were discussing ( and about to hit Alpha with) before the craptastic CU that we got, would have solved alot of those issues ( mainly the buffs, the composite wars, and things like AFK dancing). My wife was involved and actually had meetings with the devs as a Dancer/Tailor rep. Sadly they scrapped all of it when WoW came out, and literally in a matter of a couple of months gave us the CU. She still speaks with some serious spite about what they did.

Most of the major issues with the game though was due to just a lack of development time. They rushed it and butchered it, and then just kept on butchering it.

The thing is too when it comes to " apex of MMO's " its all a matter of opinion. For them, as individuals, it may have been the best MMO they ever played. Best is not always determined by what sells the most for some people ( Music has the same thing happen alot).

I'm fairly honest about the game, but I will always look back on it fondly. SWG is where I met my wife, and without it I may never have known her, let alone married her. That alone will put it close to the top for me, and that has zero to do with sub numbers.

[Clattuc]

In answer to the original question, there is no "they" who would have remade Galaxies. Sony Online Entertainment was done with it years ago, BioWare is a completely different company with a radically different point of view and the last shop in the world you would ever ask to "remake" anything, and LucasArts just wants a profitable license.

The best you could have hoped for was that some third party like Cryptic might have bought the license from Sony and proposed a reboot to LucasArts instead of a new game. But Old Republic was agreed to soooooo long ago (and took soooooo long to finish) that you would have had to be clairvoyant to think of such a deal.

[Kithelle]

SWG was so much fun...till I played WOW...then i realized how big and cool a mmo could truly be. I quit SWG to play WOW a little after the NGE hit and along with a friend. SWG was so boring compared to a real mmo...SWG had nothing to do but some same old 5 mans...I've seen more interesting stuff to do in single WOW patches than SWG would put out with a expansion.

JTL...once people got master pilot space was a dead zone...I only ever ran into a flagged person once...and they ran like hell. ROTW I think it was...it had levels on that planet but there wasn't a whole lot of questing and once you were done there getting the fancy news stuff it was another dead zone. The Mustafar one added some instances but they were only 5 mans and those got more easily and simplistic than a WOW heroic.

Then SWG turned to the NGE which was basically their attempt to rip off WOW...and failed even more.

[Psychlon]

oh its fair dues if some do, most however, dont, they like to point out how it was the apex of MMOs, Best MMO ever ive seen mooted on here this very day, its far from it.

why don't you talk to these people then... not to the people you are actually talking to because I never said anything like it....

And even the plus points you point out above (social interaction, crafting) had lots of bad points in them, Coruscant cantinas AFK dancers, needing stims to lock you into your armour, crafting was limited, it was the composite clone wars, hologrind absolutely killed the economy with armour wearers and weaponsmiths knocking out sub par crap, left right and center.

when talking about crafting... it was up to the developers to give more possibilities for armor skins/ having armor inside cloths and stuff... someone I wanted to have from the very beginning to not run around like a walking tank. The crafting system however was still unique and more fascination (because your choice actually mattered coupled with having the best crafting result only with the best materials/ best craft cloths and buffs) which wasn't something you would find in 1 day. The system was so immersive that people could really only craft and nothing else for years to be fully occupied.

The only good point was the material quality system (i made my living selling materials and power), everything else was bad or badly implemented, and even the good things got spoilt with SOEs choices see. hologrind.

You should realise that when people talk about SWG, they don't talk about patch XY... they talk about one situation over years which fit them best. When someone says the pvp was great, he could talk about the base busting or the base "camping" it later became due to the faction imbalance (something we also have in SWTOR.... no surprise)

Creature Handler was unique and fun even though it was not the most played class which is why it was scrapped by SOE for the sake of reducing it down to 9 classes (I don't want to know how many CH lovers wanted to kill someone at SOE.... I would have been ok with longtime torture).

And while SWG was bleeding subs... NGE was like the Atombomb leaving only those alive which did survive the blast.

[Deleted]

And while SWG was bleeding subs... NGE was like the Atombomb leaving only those alive which did survive the blast.

no it did not, go check the numbers

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png

more people left from mid 2004 to Nov 2005 (80,000 in one year ) then from Nov 2005 to then end of 2008 (80,000 in 3 years).

[Psychlon]

Dude what are you trying to proof here? I did play SWG and after NGE the server was empty... so why trying to convince me that it wasn't like that? Seriously. Why don't you go try and find out how many people left right after the NGE?...

[Perkunas]

no it did not, go check the numbers

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png

more people left from mid 2004 to Nov 2005 (80,000 in one year ) then from Nov 2005 to then end of 2008 (80,000 in 3 years).

The game was bleeding subs after the initial free month worse than TOR did. The game sold over 1 million box copies and less than 300k remained after the first 3 months. I really wanted to like Galaxies, but the bugs, lies, and general lack of anything to do beyond PVP or farm creds/mats made it mind-numbing. Galaxies had promise but it never lived up to the expectations that the devs gave us pre-release. I played for six months from the end of beta. The game was never a magical candy land of MMO goodness that the fanatics will have you believe. The people who bark on forums about how amazing the game was are typically blinded by nostalgia. It's in those rose-tinted glasses that they forget about things like the balance on the whole, the classes that couldn't even profs that couldn't even skill-up at release, the lack of any and all non-player created content, the HAM system(which to this day is hands down the worst combat system ever created in an MMO).

In short... Those that scream about how perfect everything was in Galaxies before the CU and then NGE are quite literally the Holocaust deniers of the MMO genre.

[Psychlon]

In short... Those that scream about how perfect everything was in Galaxies before the CU and then NGE are quite literally the Holocaust deniers of the MMO genre.

Another poster which is talking about people which I never encountered nor read anything about. it's still completely correct to say that the crafter part of the game was more interesting than any other craft system in any "bigger" MMO.

HAM bar was really stupid especially when the sniper/ combat medics took over the pvp and the only class in the game to counter were Jedi which could heal their mindbar...

As someone already pointed out, if you focus on single elements doesn't mean that you speak in a general matter of the game. You also have to pay attention when you talk with people playing SWG until the server were shut down because from what I read, the game was actually bugfree/ enjoyable with elements from Pre- and Post NGE plus stuff they always promised and only implemented few months prior to the shutdown. (athmospheric flights for example)

[Perkunas]

Another poster which is talking about people which I never encountered nor read anything about. it's still completely correct to say that the crafter part of the game was more interesting than any other craft system in any "bigger" MMO.

HAM bar was really stupid especially when the sniper/ combat medics took over the pvp and the only class in the game to counter were Jedi which could heal their mindbar...

As someone already pointed out, if you focus on single elements doesn't mean that you speak in a general matter of the game. You also have to pay attention when you talk with people playing SWG until the server were shut down because from what I read, the game was actually bugfree/ enjoyable with elements from Pre- and Post NGE plus stuff they always promised and only implemented few months prior to the shutdown. (athmospheric flights for example)

I much preferred Earth and Beyond's crafting system. It encouraged raiders and crafters to work with each other in order to obtain the best possible items in the game.