Garalon: They just couldn't let us have one, could they?

[herpecin]

Yeah. The "fix" the eliminates the only reason you'd bring a rogue to HoF in the first place.

are you in a bleeding edge guild where the 5% damage difference between all DPS classes is make or break?

if yes they you already have 3+ other characters that are equally geared that you can switch to.

if no then it doesnt matter and you are being sat because you are either a terrible player or a terrible person.

[Exorte]

I think "fix" and "not working as intended" are just total BS. Mirroring damage done with buffs/debuffs has been that way until now. It was clearly intended or it wouldn't have gone on for years. What it really is, is they just now decided they didn't like that design and changed it. It isn't a fix as it wasn't broken before as it was intended to do that. They simply apparently forgot to change this specific mechanic.

The only thing that annoys me about this is that they are changing it in the middle. Blade flurry is a dumb mechanic anyway, and even without mirroring the 200%, we will still be really strong on that fight.

@OP
You're being kinda stupid about this. The two main reasons to not bring a rogue to HoF are because we are melee or because we don't have raid cds. Our damage is fine. Our personal survivability is fine. I mean seriously, they lowered our damage on a fight we will still probably top damage on. The only way that really matters is if your entire raid is wiping because of the damage difference.

Nope, they change it quite a while ago. Garalon was special case he was bugged.

[Sesshou]

Nope, they change it quite a while ago. Garalon was special case he was bugged.

Thats pretty much what I said... BF cleaving with bonus damage was 'working as intended' until they changed their stance on it.

[Kael]

Does it really matter when Blizzard decided to change BF to not mirror increased/decreased damage? We know how it acts currently and is supposed to act in future encounters.

[cFortyfive]

I dont get this "rogues are doing shit in pve" thing tbh. I agree that we lack the raid utility of the hybrid classes. But dmg-wise we're fine, doing great on some fights even. I see no reason to qq about our dmg output. Gameplay-wise and rotation yes there are improvements to be made, but thats a whole other discussion.

I am personally also quite interested where this assessment is coming from. I can certainly understand the latter point as well as I was and still am not especially fond of the gameplay of my own class but looking at raidbots data or even my own raids I can't really see how rogues are supposed to be as terrible as people make them out to be.

[Cybran]

spend some more time on your dk and only use your hunter for the raids where you might get a upgrade. and hope try to get the gear needed for 5.2. so when it is released you van join with your dk instead of your hunter.

You clearly don't know me. I am planning on getting my dk ready for heroic raiding in 1-2 weeks. Just can't deal with hunter's uselessness any more.

[Volitar]

Rogues are still really strong on this fight and in general this tier. You can't really think doing 30% more damage than everyone else was balanced? Oh wait this is MMOChampion.

[Deleted]

It's funny because mages got no stick for Milking amber shaper ignite abuse.

You hit target x for 100% more damage your cleave copies your first attack and applies it to said target.

so... If you hit a mob for 10k your 2nd target should hit for 10k but no.

They could of fixed BF in T11 during or after Halfus.
They could of fixed BF in T13 during or after heroic Zong (Cleaving the claw for 100% more damage)

But they wait a year to pull the plug because for once you stack rogues over mages. but np stack mages for twins to cc the adds.

Stack mages for ambershaper to kill the add in p2 in seconds. Seems about right.

[Elovan]

I think people are confused about what Crithto was saying. Quoted and bolded for clarity:

"Sort of, and something we should take this opportunity to clarify. In Cataclysm, cleave-type mechanics double-dipped on damage bonuses, but we changed that universally in Patch 5.0 on a fundamental level. If you go back to Halfus or Wind Lord Mel'jarak, you'll find that cleave effects that derive their damage from the initial hit now only award the bonus damage on the target that is receiving increased damage.

Note that this works both ways. If you Sinister Strike a target that has a 50% damage reduction effect on it, your Blade Flurry will still do full damage to a secondary target, which previously would not have been the case.

The pending hotfix addresses a bug specific to the Garalon encounter which cause these new rules to not apply. Abilities that can hit a leg and the body simultaneously will still be extremely effective on the boss."

Specifically, the change to how cleave mechanics works was changed before the expansion even came out. Blizzard didn't change their design philosophy mid-raid, they changed it during the expansion shift. The hotfix to Garalon was for a bug that caused it to work under the old rules that no longer applied anywhere else.

Now whether or not you think the new philosophy is good or not is up for debate, it certainly has it's own bugs and ways to abuse it (Combustion on Amber Shaper Un'sok), but don't complain about Blizzard changing philosophy mid-teir, because they changed it between expansions.

[Verain]

That's not true at all. Anywhere you have a BUFF to a target, that cleave gets the BUFF. Any time the target has a DEBUFF, the cleave is based on your initial damage, not the debuff-boosted damage.

Their line about "bug specific to the Garalon encounter" is simply not accurate. It's a CM trying to bring over what the devs said imperfectly. He presumably means that the devs INTENDED for blade flurry to not hit Garalon for double damage. But it's not a bug, it's a natural ramification of giving players in the circle a BUFF.

[Elovan]

That's not true at all. Anywhere you have a BUFF to a target, that cleave gets the BUFF. Any time the target has a DEBUFF, the cleave is based on your initial damage, not the debuff-boosted damage.

Their line about "bug specific to the Garalon encounter" is simply not accurate. It's a CM trying to bring over what the devs said imperfectly. He presumably means that the devs INTENDED for blade flurry to not hit Garalon for double damage. But it's not a bug, it's a natural ramification of giving players in the circle a BUFF.

Except it's not a straight 100% damage buff.

Weak Point - Close proximity to Garalon's leg allows attackers to see weak points, increasing their damage dealt to the leg by 100%.

It is a bug that cleave damage done to Garalon was benefiting from a buff that only was supposed to increase damage to the legs. If it was just "increasing damage by 100%" then yes, you would be right. But that's not what the buff is.

[MrHappy]

Yeah. The "fix" the eliminates the only reason you'd bring a rogue to HoF in the first place.

if that's how you play...you are doing it wrong

[white178]

is it just me or the hotfix its not working as intended? if i do main damage to garalon the legs its not receiving 100% extra dmg

[hihu]

Well the fix was obviously needed as we were horribly overpowered on this fight, however we can see other classes are the same on other fights (un'sok, fire mage) with no fix even mentionned.
So yea, makes me wonder if they are being fair with their live progression week hotfixes..

[Verain]

is it just me or the hotfix its not working as intended? if i do main damage to garalon the legs its not receiving 100% extra dmg

We are pretty sure you should target the legs because then your poison does the extra damage. But if you are standing in the circle and your flurry is hitting the leg for 100% damage instead of the "intended" 200%, that's actually what we predicted would happen- though it's contrary to Blizzard's little story.

Anyway, if true, then continue to hit the leg and flurry to the boss.

[Sesshou]

We are pretty sure you should target the legs because then your poison does the extra damage. But if you are standing in the circle and your flurry is hitting the leg for 100% damage instead of the "intended" 200%, that's actually what we predicted would happen- though it's contrary to Blizzard's little story.

Anyway, if true, then continue to hit the leg and flurry to the boss.

I don't think that is contrary to blizz's blue post. What they were saying is that say I am BF'ing off a shadow priest with dispersion, I will be doing basically nothing to the priest, but if there is some one next to the priest eating my cleave with no cooldowns up, they will take my full normal damage. Previously they would have benefited from the spriests dispersion and taken basically no BF damage.

Now I do think it should work as you are saying, I just don't remember any blue specifically addressing that.

[Kaustos]

is it just me or the hotfix its not working as intended? if i do main damage to garalon the legs its not receiving 100% extra dmg

Working on him tonight and no, attacking Garalon directly won't give you weak points benefit at all. 0 of my 500 blade flurry strikes did double. Though, I don't think its isolated to blade flurry- several other dps in my raid were not getting the benefit the majority of the time and the pulls I did as assassin I rarely got the effect (yes, having the aura) even while standing right on top of the leg for its full duration.

[Deleted]

are you in a bleeding edge guild where the 5% damage difference between all DPS classes is make or break?

if yes they you already have 3+ other characters that are equally geared that you can switch to.

if no then it doesnt matter and you are being sat because you are either a terrible player or a terrible person.

All there is to say.

Thanks for fixing cleaves Blizzard. Long overdue, but happy it's done now.