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  1. #61
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    I am quite honestly surprised that they haven't learned and didn't have an official post or blog, which is coming later today apparently, after the embargo was lifted with websites as then a whole lot of the issue would have mostly been avoided.

  2. #62

  3. #63
    I'm not overly worried about Ascended armor types. Sounds like it's more a small notch upwards rather than the big, almost exponential leaps in power that most gear treadmills make.

  4. #64
    Deleted
    I just got Guild Wars 2 and enjoying the leveling process immensely.

    This doesn't worry me at all, instead it gives me confidence that there will be greater variety at max level and makes me optimistic about the future.

    I'll reserve judgment for when I've actually experienced it for a while but on the face of it, I like it.

  5. #65
    Deleted

  6. #66
    what i dont get is how can you criticize them for putting another set of armors in when the current set might not be adequate to handle the progressive difficulty of the new dungeon. If the New dungeon had an end to it and a difficulty cap they wouldnt need to add the armor, they could just use this to add more cosmetic sets into the game. But since the dungeon keeps getting harder how are you the player supposed to handle that in your current full exotic set?

    You guys are really weird you know. They cant have this dungeon design without the new gear set because then once you get to a certain point youll be utterly smashed. Now for starters we dont even know how much the stats are gonna go up by. You may not even need the gear at higher difficulties and it may only slightly help you where instead of getting hit for 80% of your health you get hit got 75%. I mean we really dont know how difficult the dungeon will get and we dont know if the gear makes a big difference or a negligible difference. You are all going crazy and coming to radical conclusions.

    There is a legendary grind in the game, And a dungeon set grind in the game. They are now adding a dungeon that may require better gear at its highest difficulty and whos to say youll even reach the point where you need even 1 piece of acendence gear to make a difference. We dont know.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Daffkeeks View Post
    lost shore trailer
    Omg, was i the only one who was awaiting cthulu there?

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Daffkeeks View Post
    Heh. Nice trailer too.

  9. #69
    I am Murloc! Ravenblade's Avatar
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    I fully understand why they are doing that. It's because people do act like they have to or feel compelled to and the company is asked to respond.

    So I expect something like this:

    -> People complain that game is too easy: Make harder dungeons. -> People complain that dungeons are too hard: Introduce dungeon specific gear -> People complain about gear treadmill: Make gear only become stronger the longer you are running the dungeon and scale it down to a minimum level of accepted increased power outside of that type of dungeon

    If it works out then they have found a decent raid substitute without having to introduce raids, a decent way for increasing rewards without introducing a classical gear treadmill

    I also think Mr. Kerstein's response was a bit blunt but he is partially correct, only partially because the media posted tidbits before the company came forward with their precise informations. Which is a risky tactic to be honest as it can incite hype and great backlash from disappointment.
    WoW: Crowcloak (Druid) & Neesheya (Paladin) @ Sylvanas EU (/ˈkaZHo͞oəl/) | GW2: Siqqa (Asura Engineer) @ Piken Square EU
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  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    So the only way to make the content harder is to scale up damage/HP even MORE? That really doesn't boost my faith in their development abilities. =/
    I dont know about you but i remember a few games that have done this. Lets see, Diablo II, Diablo 3, Diablo 3 again (Monster Power), World of warcraft (come on man what do you think the difference between normal and heroic dungeons or normal and heroic raids are? You up the %'s and add 1 or two mechanics if that.)

    Lots of games do this cuz it works. If a game is easy cuz u can kill mobs fast and they dont hit you that hard then all you have to do is make it so you cant kill them fast and they hit harder. They do it cuz it works.

  11. #71
    I am Murloc! Ravenblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    So the only way to make the content harder is to scale up damage/HP even MORE? That really doesn't boost my faith in their development abilities. =/
    I suppose you can't get along without the visceral side of the gameplay especially if your game is majorly centered around combat. It does not mean that all you will be going to do is cracking skulls though. I've played a couple of RPGs where the objective was not necessarily to beat an endboss but finding a switch or item. But even so combat can be a side objective of a greater mini-game: Remember the battle squares in Icewind Dale II?
    WoW: Crowcloak (Druid) & Neesheya (Paladin) @ Sylvanas EU (/ˈkaZHo͞oəl/) | GW2: Siqqa (Asura Engineer) @ Piken Square EU
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  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenblade View Post
    I fully understand why they are doing that. It's because people do act like they have to or feel compelled to and the company is asked to respond.

    So I expect something like this:

    -> People complain that game is too easy: Make harder dungeons. -> People complain that dungeons are too hard: Introduce dungeon specific gear -> People complain about gear treadmill: Make gear only become stronger the longer you are running the dungeon and scale it down to a minimum level of accepted increased power outside of that type of dungeon

    If it works out then they have found a decent raid substitute without having to introduce raids, a decent way for increasing rewards without introducing a classical gear treadmill

    I also think Mr. Kerstein's response was a bit blunt but he is partially correct, only partially because the media posted tidbits before the company came forward with their precise informations. Which is a risky tactic to be honest as it can incite hype and great backlash from disappointment.
    Oh wow, this sounds really good. Hope it indeed is this way. Outside the dungeon it's your everyday exotic, but inside it's slightly more powerful.

    What i think people don't realise is that this is GW2 and doesn't have the same tier upgrade philosophy as WoW. The change from greens to exotic in GW2 isn't anything you notice. From greens to epics in WoW however is a whole new lvl. Matter of fact, even the change from ilvl 463 to 489/496 is huuge. You can never pull 100k+ dps in full heroic blues, but in 489/496 epic that's to be expected if your a hardcore raider. In GW2 there is almost no difference between exotic and greens. Maybe 500+/- HP and some minor damage, precision etc changes.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Ok, two things:

    For one, this (should be) against the philosophy of the game. We've been told time and again that "more skill" was the answer to everything, not more stats. The idea that they cannot create more challenging content without simply stacking more numbers up is pretty disappointing. (Not saying it's true, just replying to your previous assertion on the matter.)

    Second, saying that the only difference between one raid and another in a game like WoW is upping the % of things is silly. A fight like H-Nefarian is significantly tougher than H-Chimaeron simply because the mechanics and organization are much, much more involved, not because one fight has bigger-er numbers. It should be a disappointment to you to think that A.Net's only idea for making content more challenging is to go against the philosophy of the game and throw more numbers at things. =(

    Differences in fights like that is what we SHOULD be seeing as their big ideas.

    Bottom line is that you cannot have it both ways. You can't support ArenaNet on a change like this and claim to also support the philosophy of GW2. (This is all assuming that even half of what we're discussing here is true.)
    Execution vs Depth. WoW fights usually don't have too much depth, since the fights have a set of very strict mechanics, that leads to specific tactics needing to be executed. WoW fights becomes more and more about execution, at least compared to Vanilla and GW2. Most fights in Vanilla weren't very complicated, bosses just hit you for an agonizing amount of health, and you needed resistance gear to survive those few mechanics there was.

    While hard hitting bosses with tons of health might seem like a lazy way to make boss fights, it does mean you can get away with being a little more chaotic than in your everyday WoW raid. I suppose it's about hitting a balance. But since it's an infinite dungeon, more health and damage seems like the only way to deal with that.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    For one, this (should be) against the philosophy of the game. We've been told time and again that "more skill" was the answer to everything, not more stats. The idea that they cannot create more challenging content without simply stacking more numbers up is pretty disappointing. (Not saying it's true, just replying to your previous assertion on the matter.)
    Ive said this many times before in this thread. The increasing difficulty of the dungeon will get to a point where no matter how much skill you have you cant get further. Anet did make dungeons that rely on skill. And they will continue to release those types of dungeons and events. This is a different type of dungeon designed with progressive difficulty in mind for those that want the challege. For those that dont want the challenge they can still do the dungeon. They just have to reset it after it gets too hard for them. Anyone can do this dungeon in any kind of level 80 gear. The same cant be said for a WoW raid. If a group of level 90's in greens cant defeat the first boss in MV they arnt going to beat any others. If that same group had blues and purples and defeats the first boss then they can prolly beat the others.

    If a group of fresh 80's in blues and greens can get to the 3rd difficulty in Fractals of the Mists then they can just reset the dungeon and do it again. If a group of 80's in full exotics can get to the 5th difficulty then they can reset the dungeon and do it again. If a group in all greens gets to the 10th difficulty they can reset the dungeon and do it again.

    not sure what point im trying to make anymore but i hope i made it. (You dont need gear to do dungeons in GW2. Its only hinted that a gear type might aid you at higher difficulty levels of a single new dungeon, You do not need this gear to beat the dungeon as it just repeats itself and has no end. 9 total paths all are beatable in blue 80 gear. Again you guys are making somthing out of nothing.)

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Ok, two things:

    For one, this (should be) against the philosophy of the game. We've been told time and again that "more skill" was the answer to everything, not more stats. The idea that they cannot create more challenging content without simply stacking more numbers up is pretty disappointing. (Not saying it's true, just replying to your previous assertion on the matter.)

    Second, saying that the only difference between one raid and another in a game like WoW is upping the % of things is silly. A fight like H-Nefarian is significantly tougher than H-Chimaeron simply because the mechanics and organization are much, much more involved, not because one fight has bigger-er numbers. It should be a disappointment to you to think that A.Net's only idea for making content more challenging is to go against the philosophy of the game and throw more numbers at things. =(

    Differences in fights like that is what we SHOULD be seeing as their big ideas.

    Bottom line is that you cannot have it both ways. You can't support ArenaNet on a change like this and claim to also support the philosophy of GW2. (This is all assuming that even half of what we're discussing here is true.)
    You are comparing two different fights in a heroic raid, rather than the same fight over the normal and heroic raid. You are right, H Chimaeron and H Nefarian are quite different in difficulty and strategy. Why wouldn't they be? They aren't the same thing at all. However, aside from numbers and 1-2 more abilities (pretty sure it was 2), N Chimaeron is not that much different than H Chimaeron.

    I won't claim to know what their intent is with this infinite dungeon. It sounds like a lot of fun. Not only do you get a chance to see how far you can go before you need bigger numbers, but you also have the bragging rights of "I made it through 50 runs without any of this Ascended gear!" or whatever. Take a look at WoW and the MoP dungeon scheme. You have normals, heroics, and challenge heroics. Nothing in them changes except for numbers, yet people do them, be it for bragging rights or some cool rewards (transmog gear).

    This is a way they can pander to the crowd on quite a few sides. Those who just want the gear rewards will likely do it for whatever of the items they want. Those that want to flex their epeen will do it as far as they can so they can brag about it. Those that want to just go about it casually and just play it every now and then can.

  16. #76
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Your second sentence is why people are not happy about the idea. That should NOT have been the path they took to create more "challenge".
    Ok, so, every time you clear a route mobs get New moves? They have this tech in already, but this can't be infinite!! By round 5 everything would have 5 more abilities ontop of what they had, if they wanted this to go on indefinently there would be so many abilities going off at the later lvs weaker PCs would get demolished, so stats is clearly another option which makes things harder and is easily accomplished.

    That being said please tell me where it says they will gain no abilities ever... Cause it seems like they want to throw EVERYTHING fancy they have into this dungeon, so wouldn't that include skill unlocks?
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeek Daniels View Post
    I dont know about you but i remember a few games that have done this. Lets see, Diablo II, Diablo 3, Diablo 3 again (Monster Power), World of warcraft (come on man what do you think the difference between normal and heroic dungeons or normal and heroic raids are? You up the %'s and add 1 or two mechanics if that.)
    This breaks down for two really important reasons:

    1. Diablo and World of Warcraft are stat based games. One is supposed to be excited the +100 sword with 80Arp/50+ Str/Agl 90 hit for 1.5k on a target of 1800 armor/4% dodge. Blah blah blah.

    Guild Wars 2 is not a linear stat determinant game to the same degree. The combat isn't even predicated on a series of dice rolls as Diablo and World of Warcraft are wholly.

    The comparisons of differing gameplay models and reason of play is inappropriate.

    Diablo and WoW are doing it 100% right in their respective gameplay models. That is ideally why a player would play those games- for the statistical crunch.

    2. W/R/T World of Warcraft encounter design scales in complexity & interaction as well as numbers output. An encounter from it's most simple-- a kobold in Elywen Forest to more complex ones like Yogg-Saron, are both linear and progressive in difficulty.

    Diablo only scales output/input after a given threshold. The gameplay being designed around a farm process for small % differences in player damage, defense, etc. The actual difficulty of content will expire but the chase [so to speak] is perpetual. Even long after the process of gear chase yields satisfactory results- completion, essentially.

    We can see that model at work in several ARPGs from Diablo 2 onward in the genre. Good, clear examples would be like Titan Quest or Torchlight 1.


    Lastly, it's not reasonable to assume because other games have linear progression via output/input increases players are okay with it in the GW2. Maybe Sally Standsinfire hated that aspect in Diablo 2. And it's no more okay in GW2 than it was in D2 for our proverbial Sally.

    Granted that would be an irrational impulse of Sally since she is essentially playing the wrong game type for her in D2. Nonetheless. We can't assume Sally, Billy or Joey are automatically okay with the introduction of such a model in GW2 because some other game(s) did/does it too.

    The tldr to "other games do it too!" is; so what?

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeek Daniels View Post
    Ive said this many times before in this thread. The increasing difficulty of the dungeon will get to a point where no matter how much skill you have you cant get further.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Your second sentence is why people are not happy about the idea. That should NOT have been the path they took to create more "challenge".
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    I dunno. I'm seeing an awful lot of rationalization in this thread. Concepts that were mercilessly attacked for being "WoW-like" before are now being treated as if they were inevitable all along, or acceptable ways of introducing new content.
    I tend to agree. Isn't locking content behind gear something they specifically said would never happen?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinoashi View Post
    He doesn't need a source to know that he pretty much hit the nail on the head.
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  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    Ok, so, every time you clear a route mobs get New moves? They have this tech in already, but this can't be infinite!! By round 5 everything would have 5 more abilities ontop of what they had, if they wanted this to go on indefinently there would be so many abilities going off at the later lvs weaker PCs would get demolished, so stats is clearly another option which makes things harder and is easily accomplished.
    Then maybe this dungeon type isn't a good design decision or GW2, hhmmmm?

    You know that thing I have to repeat in every thread due to the sheer density of the average video gamer; bad design is exemplified by conflicting systems.

  20. #80
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Then maybe this dungeon type isn't a good design decision or GW2, hhmmmm?

    You know that thing I have to repeat in every thread due to the sheer density of the average video gamer; bad design is exemplified by conflicting systems.
    I personally think it sounds like a great decision and so long as the armors extra power is only in effect while within the instance is a great idea and i see only good things for it....
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

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