Dailies!

[Aucald]

Tabards and "double dipping" (in the developers parlance) was better. In fact that's how it's always been and changing it makes no sense. Getting loot is now a pain in the ass and totally gay. Expect people to leave because of this and expect it to change. Sub expires at the end of the week do not expect to resub until changes are made.

Gaining rep via Tabards came into being during Wrath, and was continued in Cata. I personally found using the Tabards to gain reputation an improvement over the model in TBC (reputation being locked into a few turn-in quests and specific to certain instances) or the Classic model (almost purely a turn-in system and onerous to the extreme). That being said, gaining reputation via the Tabards tended to remove the emphasis of a faction almost completely - to this day few people seem to know what factions such as the Ramkahen or the Wyrmrest Accord were even about because they had little to no story to them. Reputations with daily chains tend to be far more fleshed out, and can even foster a sense of involvement if their stories prove to be compelling enough.

This is not to say that MoP's system doesn't have faults, as it certainly does. But I've found the MoP factions do seem to matter a lot more, at least to me, and the epic Exalted quest/events of the Golden Lotus, Klaxxi, and Shado-Pan factions were awesome to behold.

[mindbomb]

The current system is NOT unanimously agreed upon as an improvement, in fact you can most definetly say that it is regressive and harmful in my opinion because the game only got better when it moves away from such systems. When the "grind" was reduced or made less notiecable. The current system only makes the grind more painful because it's not tied to an activity you wouldn't normally do anyway. The it's always been this way argument does indeed apply to this because the change in mists is really regressive. It isn't friendly to players like getting rid of keys was or attunements or any of that. It is an obstacle added basically.I mean I do not recall anybody bitching about getting rep from dungeons. I do recall lots of people bitching about attunements and keys and so forth. I do not recall anyone saying hey blizzard make dungeons less rewarding please. I do not recall a stunning cry from the forums saying give us more daily quests please Blizzard. We need more grind in this game Blizzard please. I do recall people saying they were bored but that happens when you take so long to release content...

Actually I did raids in blues mostly in cata. We got into BoT on my holy paladin and I had maybe one piece of heroic dungeon gear. Certainly no rep gear. In any event the guy I was quoting stated that he was compelled to get that rep in heroic dungeons in cata and I said no you weren't for the exact reason you mentioned. In neither instance it is required or in both instances it is. I feel we are not being honest when we say this system isn't forced but cata heroics were totally forced.

I don't raid or at least raid regularly as I did before in cata. To be honest I can't be arsed to. Without a valor gear vendor it seems so fruitless because even if I went through the hassle of finding a new raiding guild, and fitting it into my life schedule and dealing with the headaches and drama their is no measured guaranteed gain from my efforts unless I do dailies. Which just adds more that I "need" to do on a daily basis if I want to get any reward out of these dungeons that isn't dictated by the dice roll. You'll notice to that raiding overall is at an all time low this expansion and my suspicion this is partially the reason why. Nobody wants to raid when all their gonna get is a chance at loot and not any measurable guarantee of reward for their time invested.

The simple fact is that while you were getting gear in dungeons in virtually every incarnation of this game you also got rep. PERIOD. You have always double dipped to some degree or another. In mists their is no double dipping. At all. And it is in the reason that people feel the rep grind is so much longer because it isn't even partially couched in the dungeon gear grind.

Entire first paragraph is null being that I never said that today's dailies were unanimously agreed upon. I was talking about the things I listed. I even go on to say how it is different.

The rest is just you saying I am not going to raid or do anything in WOW if you have to do dailies. Ok. Your choice. So if you are not willing to reschedule your life for raids and wow as you put it, then don't. Still does not validate most of the comparisons to old expansions which was clearly being used over and over.

Keep in mind, I am not saying in ANY WAY that double dipping did not exist (a point you felt I needed to know AGAIN) your right, it did. But all of that should be related to the time needed to get gear to go raid. If the time it took was more for far less of an item level upgrade then got you almost nothing for your "efforts". If you wanted to compare just Cata, as it relates to THIS TOPIC, that would be fine. (I won't say Wrath because the end result of obtaining said gear is for raids and progression, I dont think anyone needed much for Naxx/OS norm) Rep grind duration: MOP > Cata. Stop there. Blizz didn't like it, and now it has changed.

"seems so fruitless because even if I went through the hassle of finding a new raiding guild, and fitting it into my life schedule and dealing with the headaches and drama..." Not sure any game is worth what you are describing. Dungeon grind doesn't help this. If the rewards for your efforts mean out-gearing normal mode bosses within weeks by just running the same dungeons over and over again, then that game doesn't exist anymore. Arguing over other peoples preferences? Making comparisons to older content is still not a fair comparison no matter if one term was in fact in place: "double dipping".

[Aucald]

I don't see why this is always debated as either MOP style or CAT style.

It should be both. There should be an epic crapton of dailies to keep everyone busy. There should also be tabards. There should be: CHOICE

I think that Blizzard's stance is that if you offered both systems and kept Tabards as they were in Wrath/Cata, then the choice almost everyone would would choose in terms of progression would be the Tabard system. This wouldn't be because it's manifestly a better system, it would simply be because it would allow a person to grind dungeons and reputation simultaneously - the essence of the whole "double dipping" argument. There would be no reason to run the dailies save for the cash flow they offer.

I think a better system might be to make reputations account-bound as well, removing them as an obstacle for alts (though the 2x acquisition rate for reputation coming in 5.1 is similar to this). Perhaps you could limit that unlock for just the Valor gear and keep the more cosmetic/prestige rewards behind the reputation wall, so to speak.

[Leonard McCoy]

Entire first paragraph is null being that I never said that today's dailies were unanimously agreed upon. I was talking about the things I listed. I even go on to say how it is different.

The rest is just you saying I am not going to raid or do anything in WOW if you have to do dailies. Ok. Your choice. So if you are not willing to reschedule your life for raids and wow as you put it, then don't. Still does not validate most of the comparisons to old expansions which was clearly being used over and over.

Keep in mind, I am not saying in ANY WAY that double dipping did not exist (a point you felt I needed to know AGAIN) your right, it did. But all of that should be related to the time needed to get gear to go raid. If the time it took was more for far less of an item level upgrade then got you almost nothing for your "efforts". If you wanted to compare just Cata, as it relates to THIS TOPIC, that would be fine. (I won't say Wrath because the end result of obtaining said gear is for raids and progression, I dont think anyone needed much for Naxx/OS norm) Rep grind duration: MOP > Cata. Stop there. Blizz didn't like it, and now it has changed.

"seems so fruitless because even if I went through the hassle of finding a new raiding guild, and fitting it into my life schedule and dealing with the headaches and drama..." Not sure any game is worth what you are describing. Dungeon grind doesn't help this. If the rewards for your efforts mean out-gearing normal mode bosses within weeks by just running the same dungeons over and over again, then that game doesn't exist anymore. Arguing over other peoples preferences? Making comparisons to older content is still not a fair comparison no matter if one term was in fact in place: "double dipping".

Then this whole thread is meaningless. If we can't compare to what we had before, what do we compare it to? That makes no sense. Raiding was vastly more rewarding in the past because I could buy gear with currency I obtained both inside and outside of the raid without doing any daily quests. I think the change away from this model is regressive unlike removing keys and attunement which is a helpful change by and large. You want to dismiss that and any comparisons to previous iterations then we can't really have much a conversation can we. What would you like me to compare it to? Some hypothetical future situation that may occur when the developers get their heads out of their asses?

[jetersky]

I vastly prefer the MoP way of doing things. It's like going to a buffet, and picking out what I like each day. Don't feel like running a heroic? Eh, no problem do a couple extra dailies. Don't feel like fighting for mobs? No problem, do a quick scenario. I like it.

[Nanotech]

I actually like there's a choice. I did my rep grinds on my main and can now either do dailies for valor or run heroics if I choose to. On my alts I'm doing the rep grinds now slowly, mainly waiting for 5.1 for the rep boost.

[herpecin]

not enough to do = people bitch about nothing to do.(Cata)

moderate amount of stuff to do = people bitch about too much to do.(MoP)

an extreme amount of stuff to do = greatest expansion ever!!!(BC)

[mindbomb]

Then this whole thread is meaningless. If we can't compare to what we had before, what do we compare it to? That makes no sense. Raiding was vastly more rewarding in the past because I could buy gear with currency I obtained both inside and outside of the raid without doing any daily quests. I think the change away from this model is regressive unlike removing keys and attunement which is a helpful change by and large. You want to dismiss that and any comparisons to previous iterations then we can't really have much a conversation can we. What would you like me to compare it to? Some hypothetical future situation that may occur when the developers get their heads out of their asses?

List where I said we can't compare to what we had before. (your statement would indicate an extreme, meaning that I said that you cannot compare the lack of MOP "double dipping" to ANY previous iteration of WOW) I was very specific if you go back and read my post. You can type anything you want, but other comparisons do little in my mind.
To draw a picture:

Cata dungeon: 346
Cata rep: 359 epics at exalted

+13

MOP dungeon: 463
MOP rep: 489 epics at honored/revered

+26

This illustrates time spent per reward gained in its simplest form. Calling it regressive is perfectly fine and your opinion. However, more paragraphs are not needed to explain that you don't prefer dailies. I said if you want to compare to CATA go ahead.... and you follow with "What would you like me to compare it to?" ????

SEPARATE POINT/TOPIC:
EVERYTHING took longer in TBC. (I use extremes too, someone get me on that... everything!!!)
Before I could do a single Shadow Labs run in TBC, (pre-badge vendor) I could do two dungeon runs in MOP and two sets of dailies if not more.