Incoming LFR Nerfs

[Wildtree]

The biggest problem with LFR is that Blizz can not compensate for people being too lazy to actually read the dungeon journal, googling a text guide to each boss or watching a youtube video. They just show up and out of fear that they will get booted they don't ask how to do the fight.They expect to figure it out as they go.

"Oh its just LFR." is no escuse, I've seen more wipes in lfr than in regular raids because no one can communicate very easily.

My guilds progress is 3/6H 6/6 25m atm.. MANY of the raiders including some of the best in the group do not read up, do not look up videos or the like.
They follow the raid lead and adapt to the situations. I am one of those too.
It's usually way too much to read to remember everything. Vids are most of the time so poor in quality that they don't tell the story either.
The best way of learning is by just doing it, and fine tune through practice. Finding the groups own dynamic tailored to the raids overall strength works better than trying to learn a wall of pre-chewed information.
It's all fine and stuff. But reading about boss abilities and experiencing them in real time are two different things.

LFR is there to give people a feel of what raiding actually is all about.
That's what it always boils down to. Hence why no one can expect everyone to be prepared there.

[Qly]

I sincerely feel people who complain this way are the downfall of this game

you wiped? get over yourself, i know in a perfect world everybody would be as good as you and you would never wipe
People as elite as you shouldn't be doing LFR anyways, go clear some world first heroic modes or something

I did both halfs of HOF:
wiped 3 times in Garalon, 3 times in Wind Lord Mel'jarak and twice in empress, i did my research and was polite while talking to people (so did others), these "mouthbreathers" usually listen if you're not acting like an asshole, spewing garbage or calling everybody noobs and bads from the get go. You know what i usually do when someone who just got on the raid says something like "Alright noobs, i wanna one shoot this so you bads better listen now or prepare to get kicked (actual quote)"??? I put these people on ignore

Problem is: "elites" go do "face-roll LFR ROFLOL!!!" and if they wipe they come complain here and in the official forums about how "mouthbreathers" can't complete it and how it should be nerfed. Once the nerf comes, they come here and to the official forums to complain that LFR shouldn't award epics, as they are a faceroll and only bads do them. Of course: if the loot is any good: "I feel forced to do them, and I burn out of the game but i have to do them since i'm so h4rc0r3 e1337e!!!!"

/rant

[Deleted]

did ambershaper on the first try, full rnd group, i just explained the buttons before the fight, without insulting
empress took 2 tries, raid healing needed is a bit overtuned though

[Wildtree]

You know what i usually do when someone who just got on the raid says something like "Alright noobs, i wanna one shoot this so you bads better listen now or prepare to get kicked (actual quote)"??? I put these people on ignore

I'm a healer. I simply don't heal em.
Very often they are also the ones that have the "Heal me" macro up.. yell heal me at me, and see how you are going to die just now.

[Chrispotter]

If blizzard raised the requirments to queue for it, there would be better groups.
Ilvl 477+ to queue or maybe a quick test on the tactics, if you get below 80% you cant queue for 5 minutes.
I dont know, something to get the retards that cant even do lfr, to give up or get better.

[Wildtree]

I dont know, something to get the retards that cant even do lfr, to give up or get better.

If you are better, then do normal/heroic.
It's rather weird to call people names for content that's not even meant for you....

[Lamoot]

I hope so... I don't want to have to work for my epics.

[DeadmanWalking]

My guilds progress is 3/6H 6/6 25m atm.. MANY of the raiders including some of the best in the group do not read up, do not look up videos or the like.
They follow the raid lead and adapt to the situations. I am one of those too.
It's usually way too much to read to remember everything. Vids are most of the time so poor in quality that they don't tell the story either.
The best way of learning is by just doing it, and fine tune through practice. Finding the groups own dynamic tailored to the raids overall strength works better than trying to learn a wall of pre-chewed information.
It's all fine and stuff. But reading about boss abilities and experiencing them in real time are two different things.

LFR is there to give people a feel of what raiding actually is all about.
That's what it always boils down to. Hence why no one can expect everyone to be prepared there.

You absolutely missed the point that I made. You hade a raid lead telling you what to do, which means your raid lead looked up how to do it and gave directions and you have access to a program that lets you communicate with your raid members. People in LFR don't communicate freely and instantly, they are also not co-ordinated like a raid group is. They don't have someone who knows the fight and just step in blindly.

I've taken guildies into LFR and I explained the fight as we went over our guilds teamspeak. Thats fine, at least someone is guiding them. One of my guildies went in previous to me guiding them and they didnt know why they died during all the fights until I explained it as we did it. I study the fights and I give them the knowledge to do the fights.

The majority of people who dont bother to get any knowledge of the fights dont have someone to guide them in real time and they don't use a group speaking program to stay co-ordinated.

You may think that LFR is the right time to figure things out as you go but 24 other people who you are pugging with want success, not trail by error. Even if your memory sucks and the videos are not super clear there is no excuse for not seeing what wrecking ball is coming your way. How many people do I have to see fall through the floor on elegon because they didn't bother look into it? Its a big lazy noob flag.

[Templis]

You absolutely missed the point that I made. You hade a raid lead telling you what to do, which means your raid lead looked up how to do it and gave directions and you have access to a program that lets you communicate with your raid members. People in LFR don't communicate freely and instantly, they are also not co-ordinated like a raid group is. They don't have someone who knows the fight and just step in blindly.

I've taken guildies into LFR and I explained the fight as we went over our guilds teamspeak. Thats fine, at least someone is guiding them. One of my guildies went in previous to me guiding them and they didnt know why they died during all the fights until I explained it as we did it. I study the fights and I give them the knowledge to do the fights.

The majority of people who dont bother to get any knowledge of the fights dont have someone to guide them in real time and they don't use a group speaking program to stay co-ordinated.

You may think that LFR is the right time to figure things out as you go but 24 other people who you are pugging with want success, not trail by error. Even if your memory sucks and the videos are not super clear there is no excuse for not seeing what wrecking ball is coming your way. How many people do I have to see fall through the floor on elegon because they didn't bother look into it? Its a big lazy noob flag.

The biggest problem that I've noticed in LFR raids since Cata is that asking 'Who doesn't know this fight?' usually ends up in players getting booted. There's two sides to the coin. I did an LFR on my fresh 90 just a few nights ago. I didn't know the fights or looked them up, since in LFR you can usually wing them (and I did), but EVERY time someone asks if anyone needs explaining, there's complete silence, and for good reason. I wasn't going to get kicked for not having done the raid before 2 bosses in either.

And for the record, the guy you're quoting is right. Looking at a video is one thing, actually experiencing a fight is another. You will never smoothly go through a fight until it's etched into your brain from constant repitition, ergo, even with the video tutorial, you might still forget about what to do for certain abilities.

LFR is the perfect place for non-raiders or entry level raiders to learn the basic version of those boss fights, which not only gets them moderately geared for normal modes, but gives them a good impression on how to perform in them, so instead of your raid leader explaining EVERY fight to you, he just says 'Ok, it's just like LFR, only xxxxxx'. In other words, people complaining about players no knowing fights while in LFR have nothing to lose there in the first place. If you want a smooth run, form a full LFR with your guild or friends, or just do normal modes.

[Deleted]

I wiped quite a bit but overall it was a fun raid, nice to have some (mildly) interesting mechanics even in LFR and not only T&S.
The only thing that worries me is how things will become when most of the raiders wont need to run it anymore and the groups will be full of the kind of players that made late DS LFR often horrible.

[DeadmanWalking]

The biggest problem that I've noticed in LFR raids since Cata is that asking 'Who doesn't know this fight?' usually ends up in players getting booted. There's two sides to the coin. I did an LFR on my fresh 90 just a few nights ago. I didn't know the fights or looked them up, since in LFR you can usually wing them (and I did), but EVERY time someone asks if anyone needs explaining, there's complete silence, and for good reason. I wasn't going to get kicked for not having done the raid before 2 bosses in either.

And for the record, the guy you're quoting is right. Looking at a video is one thing, actually experiencing a fight is another. You will never smoothly go through a fight until it's etched into your brain from constant repitition, ergo, even with the video tutorial, you might still forget about what to do for certain abilities.

LFR is the perfect place for non-raiders or entry level raiders to learn the basic version of those boss fights, which not only gets them moderately geared for normal modes, but gives them a good impression on how to perform in them, so instead of your raid leader explaining EVERY fight to you, he just says 'Ok, it's just like LFR, only xxxxxx'. In other words, people complaining about players no knowing fights while in LFR have nothing to lose there in the first place. If you want a smooth run, form a full LFR with your guild or friends, or just do normal modes.

Here is the problem, you say, "Who doesn't know this fight' and then claim you don't want to be kicked for not having done the fight before. You were not asked 'Who hasnt done this fight before', you were asked if you knew the fight. They didnt ask if you had experience fighting the boss, they asked if you knew the mechanics. I have been in lfr since the day it started and no one has been kicked for owning up that they didnt know it, they just fear thats what is going to happen. They do get kicked for falling through the floor though.

Fine, you want to wing it, but what happens when everyone with the exception of a few people want to wing it? You wipe, over and over and then have the nerve to blame anyone but yourself, DPS fail, Tank Fail, Heal fail. How many times did we wipe on Deathwing because too many people couldn't listen to directions and single target the tiny tentacles? And of course, its someone elses fault.

Stop passing the buck, its not Blizzards fault you refuse to put a single minute into learning the mechanics.

[mysticx]

The problem with LFR is that on average you don't really have a raidgroup as much as 25 loners slapped together with the same goal: loot.

I was struggling for a while with Amber-shaper you-suck or whatever his name is, and in that time i saw about half a dozen "versions" of the tactics in raid-chat, which just added confusion to the whole thing, i read tactics here on MMO-champion but the other guys with the other renditions of the tactics out-shouted me.

Can't see solutions besides "dumbing down", by putting actual tactics in the game (LFR-version anyway) instead of the puzzle-pieces we have now, the good old-fashioned nerfbat, or waiting until more people are experienced at the LFR tactics, but i think Blizz will opt for nerfing.

[Templis]

Here is the problem, you say, "Who doesn't know this fight' and then claim you don't want to be kicked for not having done the fight before. You were not asked 'Who hasnt done this fight before', you were asked if you knew the fight. They didnt ask if you had experience fighting the boss, they asked if you knew the mechanics. I have been in lfr since the day it started and no one has been kicked for owning up that they didnt know it, they just fear thats what is going to happen. They do get kicked for falling through the floor though.

Fine, you want to wing it, but what happens when everyone with the exception of a few people want to wing it? You wipe, over and over and then have the nerve to blame anyone but yourself, DPS fail, Tank Fail, Heal fail. How many times did we wipe on Deathwing because too many people couldn't listen to directions and single target the tiny tentacles? And of course, its someone elses fault.

Stop passing the buck, its not Blizzards fault you refuse to put a single minute into learning the mechanics.

But I did learn the mechanics, in fact, I'm learned them the way they've traditionally been learned, by actually DOING the fight. First timers will likely screw up regardless if they've watched a 10 minute youtube video where some guy drones on endlessly with trance playing in the background. People can still fall through the floor even if they've seen a video, in fact, people can accidentally fall through the floor after having done the fight 100 times. People screw up.

I've seen players get kicked for admitting to not knowing the fights, and let's face it, that's the same thing as 'not having done it', because if you can magically execute it perfectly your first time through with a youtube video, why bother asking the raid 'if you know how to do it?' in the first place?

[DeadmanWalking]

But I did learn the mechanics, in fact, I'm learned them the way they've traditionally been learned, by actually DOING the fight. First timers will likely screw up regardless if they've watched a 10 minute youtube video where some guy drones on endlessly with trance playing in the background. People can still fall through the floor even if they've seen a video, in fact, people can accidentally fall through the floor after having done the fight 100 times. People screw up.

I've seen players get kicked for admitting to not knowing the fights, and let's face it, that's the same thing as 'not having done it', because if you can magically execute it perfectly your first time through with a youtube video, why bother asking the raid 'if you know how to do it?' in the first place?

'Likely' isnt going to help your argument. I always study the fights before I go in and the raids don't fail on my behalf because I know if a boss is going to fill the area with glowing moving disks, the floor is going to fall away, or you should not step in the purple circle. People who have an ideal of whats going to happen are going to help the LFR succeed and those who go in uninformed are the ones who contribute to its failure. The difference is that I am carrying my wieght and you are one of the people I have to carry through the fight.

People who fall through the floor are always people who don't know whats coming, people who have done the fight 100 times know better than to stay on it. If you don't have a clue of whats coming you might as well be playing with one hand in your pants because thats how much you are helping the 24 other people succeed.

[Simon_Moon]

Just did the fight and it was much less painful than the first version of garalon. We went through a nice 3 wipe learning curve, which is perfectly appropiate for lfr. The tuning is nice and you can sort out the not so gifted by letting them die as constructs.

[Deleted]

Blizzard will have internal metrics about how many LFR groups are "allowed" to disband and walk away without loot. If those numbers are not met, they will adapt difficulty. They will not care about mouthy 15-year-olds opinion on the forum.

[Templis]

'Likely' isnt going to help your argument. I always study the fights before I go in and the raids don't fail on my behalf because I know if a boss is going to fill the area with glowing moving disks, the floor is going to fall away, or you should not step in the purple circle. People who have an ideal of whats going to happen are going to help the LFR succeed and those who go in uninformed are the ones who contribute to its failure. The difference is that I am carrying my wieght and you are one of the people I have to carry through the fight.

People who fall through the floor are always people who don't know whats coming, people who have done the fight 100 times know better than to stay on it. If you don't have a clue of whats coming you might as well be playing with one hand in your pants because thats how much you are helping the 24 other people succeed.

Right, but wiping in a raid isn't the end of the world. I'm sure you and your guild wipe endlessly while progressing. In my first run, roughly 5 people fell through the floor (myself not included), and we still finished the fight. The mechanics of LFR are designed so that people CAN screw up, colossally, and still complete the fight. In fact, that's the whole POINT of LFR. Expecting perfect coordination weeks after the raid is even released in a randomly assembled pug is hilarious. It'll take a few months, but it'll get there. Even DS raids went 99% flawless after a few months.

Regarding the last comment, that might apply to a pug normal mode, but all you really have to do to contribute to an LFR's success is stand there and DPS a little. It doesn't even have to be that much, 25k or whatever. The only requirement to get into one is to have some, SOME, heroic dungeon gear. The place was designed to let you screw up and succeed anyway. In fact, I don't see a reason to run the raid when you have access to normal modes already anyway, given the better loot, progression, and coordinated effort they offer in comparison to LFR.

If you're in an LFR that's screwing up and it upsets you, you don't really have anyone to blame but yourself. If you want assured co-ordination, run normals with your guild.

[DeadmanWalking]

Right, but wiping in a raid isn't the end of the world. I'm sure you and your guild wipe endlessly while progressing. In my first run, roughly 5 people fell through the floor (myself not included), and we still finished the fight. The mechanics of LFR are designed so that people CAN screw up, colossally, and still complete the fight. In fact, that's the whole POINT of LFR. Expecting perfect coordination weeks after the raid is even released in a randomly assembled pug is hilarious. It'll take a few months, but it'll get there. Even DS raids went 99% flawless after a few months.

Regarding the last comment, that might apply to a pug normal mode, but all you really have to do to contribute to an LFR's success is stand there and DPS a little. It doesn't even have to be that much, 25k or whatever. The only requirement to get into one is to have some, SOME, heroic dungeon gear. The place was designed to let you screw up and succeed anyway. In fact, I don't see a reason to run the raid when you have access to normal modes already anyway, given the better loot, progression, and coordinated effort they offer in comparison to LFR.

If you're in an LFR that's screwing up and it upsets you, you don't really have anyone to blame but yourself. If you want assured co-ordination, run normals with your guild.

This entire topic has nothing to do with guild raids, it has everything to do with LFR and people not spending a single moment learning what is coming at them so they wipe. I don't see why you are trying to tie guild raids, which are co-ordinated efforts between people who know one another using a voice program to communicate, and 25 people who are randomly generated and only have the option of typing messages to one another. Now Blizzard has to dumb it down because people like you want to wipe the LFR 3 times in a row so you can 'feel it out'. "Its only LFR, you can just do more dps and win!" Its obviously not that easy to win if 1/5th of the people die if Blizzard has to dumb it down for you to succeed. Those 5 people who fell through the floor and you still won? Well those 5 people had to be carried over the finish line. I guess it is okay to wipe 20 other people because you want to 'feel it out', because its LFR and not anything serious at all except to those people who are taking it seriously and don't want repair bills for your loosey goosey approach to LFR or to waste time redoing the fight 3 times in a row.

There is no escuse for this level of lazyness. The -least- you can do is click on the dungeon journal and the boss and reading anything with a '!' on it.

[Deleted]

Why do "hardcores" even care?

Because we (I?) get upgrades from there.

[Deleted]

i've wiped on Amber Shaper for like 40 mins then just gave up. They seriously are clueless about the constructs. Don't dumb it down though, punish these idiots for being so stupid. I'll just normal it and avoid LFR til everyone out gears it.