Wind Lord Mel'Jarek

[Imnick]

2. Living bomb has a 3 target cap, so yes you can only spread it to 2 adds other than your target

Ignite and Pyroblast don't.
Pyroblast lasts for such a long time that you are likely to spread it to more than 3 targets.

[dennisdkramer]

Ignite and Pyroblast don't.
Pyroblast lasts for such a long time that you are likely to spread it to more than 3 targets.

ah yea i thought he was talking about choice of bomb spells, not frost v fire, so that comment wasnt really relevent, edited it out.

[lhehitman]

1. I hope you mean frost orb you can frost bomb as fire as well which you should of course have

He specifically said frost bomb but he probable meant both bomb and orb. This is something that i have been doing wrong then as i have been using living bomb, so i should stay fire but be using frost bomb for this fight?

[Deleted]

He specifically said frost bomb but he probable meant both bomb and orb. This is something that i have been doing wrong then as i have been using living bomb, so i should stay fire but be using frost bomb for this fight?

I personally use Living Bomb for this fight. Granted Frost Bomb will give more DPS during the first Phase but will be worse during the 2nd phase which is more important imo. Get the boss down asap and Living Bomb is more applicable for me considering the 2 different situations in P1 and P2.

[Imnick]

Personally I use Living Bomb as well but that's just because Frost Bomb becomes pointless once you have your best in slot Elegon trinket, as it does not count as a DoT effect.
Both of those are better than Nether Tempest, Frost Bomb and Living Bomb are likely to provide fairly similar output if you do not have Light of the Cosmos but Frost Bomb is easier to apply.

[Xorn]

Personally I use Living Bomb as well but that's just because Frost Bomb becomes pointless once you have your best in slot Elegon trinket, as it does not count as a DoT effect.
Both of those are better than Nether Tempest, Frost Bomb and Living Bomb are likely to provide fairly similar output if you do not have Light of the Cosmos but Frost Bomb is easier to apply.

Between Pyro, Ignite, and Combustion, I don't think Fire will have any problems proccing the trinket while using Frost Bomb. Arcane and Frost, on the other hand...

[Pulski]

3. No. Nothing about glyphed combustion is better except for the fact that it lines up with CDs. Getting an extra combustion off completely outweighs that benefit, if you can guarantee that you're going to do so.

I keep seeing this argument, but it's just not right.

Timeline from your first combustion:
Glyphed: Cast it, lasts 20 seconds, up in 90. Cast again, has been up for 40 seconds now at the 180 second mark.
Unglyphed: Cast it, lasts 10 seconds, up at 45. Cast again, has been up for 20 now at the 90 second mark. Third cast, 30 sec uptime, 135 second mark. Etc. etc.

Unglyphed Combustion will always be trying to play catchup with the Glyphed Counterpart. Best case scenario the two will be equal. The only benefit to not having the glyph is if your target would have died before the 20 second duration is up or to reduce the penalty of hitting it at the wrong time.

[dennisdkramer]

I keep seeing this argument, but it's just not right.

Timeline from your first combustion:
Glyphed: Cast it, lasts 20 seconds, up in 90. Cast again, has been up for 40 seconds now at the 180 second mark.
Unglyphed: Cast it, lasts 10 seconds, up at 45. Cast again, has been up for 20 now at the 90 second mark. Third cast, 30 sec uptime, 135 second mark. Etc. etc.

Unglyphed Combustion will always be trying to play catchup with the Glyphed Counterpart. Best case scenario the two will be equal. The only benefit to not having the glyph is if your target would have died before the 20 second duration is up or to reduce the penalty of hitting it at the wrong time.

You're pretty much right

I still think unglyphed is a viable option because reducing the impact of the cooldown lets you use it more fluidly. In my experience you're never going to use combustion right on cooldown, and with the glyph I feel like it further encourages waiting for a great combustion.

But you're right, especially on this fight, theres really no good reason not to glyph it

[Soulstrike]

Your raid leader is a tool.

oh come on now no need to be hostile here, give some constructive feedback otherwise dont post >_>

you can play whatever spec you want but fire does indeed come higher if you play correctly ( and bit of rng)

as bombs i also use living bomb instead of frostbomb, just because later single target dps is much better as LB than Frost bomb

oh and the adds wont give you problem p2 when boss is alone is where the real fight begins pretty much at least on normal :P

[Deleted]

It's much easier to CC 2 of the menders imo (much less need for constant Mass Dispells too). Simply mark the solo mender with a skull, ask your melee to be targeting them whilst cleaving/AoE, have your tank targeting it too (needs interupted too so gj). With just 1 melle+tank attacking it with white hits whilst AoEing etc it'll take massive dmg and offset that which you loose by only having one there. We've done it every time and there is no problem at all killing the mender first.

Edit: So CC 2 Menders, 1 Trapper, 1 Blademaster.

This might hold true in 10man as you dont have as many to interrupt the menders, but in 25m you should have more than enough to interrupt. We tried first 5 pulls or so to go with 4 CC's (2trappers 1mender 1 blade) and our only trouble was the uneven damage they take resulting in 1 kind of adds having a high HP when the 2 other hence buffing the Boss and making things harder compared to getting them all down at once, even if you put melee on the add that have 2 CC'ed it will take 100% less damage, you would also waist a lot of Aoe potential from said melees thats doing single target dps, if they are still cleaving when doing this single target dps then the adds with 2 of a kind will still go down faster than the 1 of a kind.

Any way i know there is 100 different ways of doing this, we found it to be a lot(by miles) easier to only CC one of each.

I'm not positive that sheep does this specifically to these adds - it might be suppressed somehow intentionally by blizzard - but sheep heals the target.. a lot. That might be the cause of not being able to get that one add low, if you were being literal. Having people focus cleaves off of that one target should be sufficient to kill them all at the same time.

Also, do we know exactly which effects count as CC on the adds? Certain classes abilities with stun components might be a concern if CCing 4... I hadn't really thought about it until now.

"if you were being literal"

I was responding to the fact that he specifically said sheeped. I'm aware of the fight mechanics.

You clearly dont know all of the fight mechanics. Sheep wont heal in this fight, Yes i said sheep in my post i should have said CC in general, but the fact is sheep dont heal.

3. No. Nothing about glyphed combustion is better except for the fact that it lines up with CDs. Getting an extra combustion off completely outweighs that benefit, if you can guarantee that you're going to do so.
4. The ideal strategy on this fight is killing all of the adds at the same time

Over the last days/weeks i have seen you post some pretty out there stuff, and its not helping new players/mages to undestand certain things. I am not saying all your stuff is like this, because you also have a lot of really good and valid point posts, but this is not one of them.

Glyphed combustion gains an extra tick @ 3056 haste rating, Unglyhped need 4052. It is not worth going for the 3056 if you need to reforge out of crit to get it. but with current Ilvls you get it for free.

Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...r=false&gid=39

This + CD lineups + only having to build up ignite every 1.5min > having to build ignite every 45s.
The only case i can think of right now were unglyphed combustion is a benefit is WotE. And maybe Tsulong if you can fit in 3 combustions before day time, though testing that earlier tonight you had to be really lucky with crits or just use ignites with low values to get 3 combust before daytime, overall all 3 mages in my guild found glyphed combustion was still better.

oh come on now no need to be hostile here, give some constructive feedback otherwise dont post >_>

you can play whatever spec you want but fire does indeed come higher if you play correctly ( and bit of rng)

as bombs i also use living bomb instead of frostbomb, just because later single target dps is much better as LB than Frost bomb

oh and the adds wont give you problem p2 when boss is alone is where the real fight begins pretty much at least on normal :P

First of all i did give feedback =). 2end off i still insist he's raid leader is a tool if he is forcing some one to play an inferior spec, i was not hostile towards OP as he have a legit claim. I will stand by my right to call he's raid leader a tool..
You even commented on it you self, as i also said in my first posts Add phase is not the problem, having good single target dps for last phase is more important even if frost was better damage on adds. And we all know fire comes out a clear winner in that department.

[voltaa]

I see a lot of people in this thread suggesting frost bomb, which just isn't as good as living bomb on this fight, unless you are only ccing two adds, frost bomb will be a dps loss (because less than 8 targets) and the adds aren't the point of concern in this fight since they drop like flies (lol get it?). Once the adds are dead that slight dps loss of frost bomb is now a major gimp.

[Imnick]

I think implying that anyone is shooting themselves in the foot by using Frost Bomb on a single target is a little silly, it may be a little less but the damage difference really isn't all that great.

[Deleted]

I see a lot of people in this thread suggesting frost bomb, which just isn't as good as living bomb on this fight, unless you are only ccing two adds, frost bomb will be a dps loss (because less than 8 targets) and the adds aren't the point of concern in this fight since they drop like flies (lol get it?). Once the adds are dead that slight dps loss of frost bomb is now a major gimp.

I often see people like you, telling the old 8 targets story from times before the frost bomb buff. Was a great work from lhivera, but he mathed the bombs out a few month before the buff.

I personally use Living Bomb for this fight. Granted Frost Bomb will give more DPS during the first Phase but will be worse during the 2nd phase which is more important imo. Get the boss down asap and Living Bomb is more applicable for me considering the 2 different situations in P1 and P2.

Frost Bomb is a 30% dps increase over the other two on single target fights? (Assuming 100% uptime of all bombs and bomb damage only)

as bombs i also use living bomb instead of frostbomb, just because later single target dps is much better as LB than Frost bomb

Frost Bomb is a 30% dps increase over the other two on single target fights? (Assuming 100% uptime of all bombs and bomb damage only)

[Soulstrike]

Frost Bomb is a 30% dps increase over the other two on single target fights? (Assuming 100% uptime of all bombs and bomb damage only)

yea but the real execute starts when boss is alone im sure in heroic(??) frost bomb COULD be better but in normal you want boss dead asap from 75%>0

[Imnick]

yea but the real execute starts when boss is alone im sure in heroic(??) frost bomb COULD be better but in normal you want boss dead asap from 75%>0

I don't think I trust the 30% figure (you are unlikely to have 100% uptime so it is likely to be slightly higher assuming that but not THAT high) but I think you misread his post.
If it is a 30% increase with 100% uptime then it is more damage than the other two and thus more useful for a single target execute.

[Deleted]

I don't think I trust the 30% figure (you are unlikely to have 100% uptime so it is likely to be slightly higher assuming that but not THAT high) but I think you misread his post.
If it is a 30% increase with 100% uptime then it is more damage than the other two and thus more useful for a single target execute.

That was exactly what I meant, thanks. Of course, you will never have 100% uptime with frost bomb and never will with the other two, but you will have higher uptimes with NT and LB. That was the reason, Blizzard buffed the Frost Bomb 2x in a row.
In the end, Frost Bomb will do ~20% more dps on single target

[Deleted]

Glyphed combustion gains an extra tick @ 3056 haste rating, Unglyhped need 4052. It is not worth going for the 3056 if you need to reforge out of crit to get it. but with current Ilvls you get it for free.

Not to mention the higher DPET of Glyphed combustion, saving a GCD every 1,5 minutes or 1+ Fireball every 3 minutes.
So not only do you get a "free" >30k tick of combustion, also do you get a "free" 40+k Fireball.

Finaly you would have to use combustion ON CD, to really compare it, in reality you are always going to have some extra cooldown for some reason after ..... still it is likely on the average fight you will use glyphed combustion = un-glyphed combustion + 1
And the +1 is a bonus of 11 ticks, which is 220k damage done.

[Deleted]

That was exactly what I meant, thanks. Of course, you will never have 100% uptime with frost bomb and never will with the other two, but you will have higher uptimes with NT and LB. That was the reason, Blizzard buffed the Frost Bomb 2x in a row.
In the end, Frost Bomb will do ~20% more dps on single target

Are you suggesting that Frost Bomb is better on single targets, Or am I misinterpreting what your saying

[Deleted]

To say it clear: Frost Bomb is better on single target! : )

[Deleted]

To say it clear: Frost Bomb is better on single target! : )

I'll try it out when I get back to my Desktop, Forgive me for not believing you instantly pretty revolutionary thought that.