Did you rogues like stop or something?

[Grawlix]

We're still here, and we aren't actually all that bad. Sure, we need buffs to mobility and control, but our damage is fine (it may only seem weak at times because other classes have unbalanced damage). Our burst is actually incredibly strong.

[Verain]

Our burst is on par with other classes during double shadow only, which is only one spec. How they can not implement a gap closer for the only class that 100% needs one in every spec is beyond unreasonable. The line about how we don't want to design classes by checking off things that they need was jaw droppingly silly.

I'd like to be capable of 2200 THIS season, thank you very much. Willing to play any spec, kthx. 5.1 will help, but the issue with rogues isn't just the list of terribly OP other classes- it legitimately is a terrible class in pvp. There's more than enough rogue loyalists to boost our numbers above 2% of decent arena rankings if we were viable.

We are not.

[Kezuma]

We're still here, and we aren't actually all that bad. Sure, we need buffs to mobility and control, but our damage is fine (it may only seem weak at times because other classes have unbalanced damage). Our burst is actually incredibly strong.

hello are u Ghostcrowler cuz sure u do sound like him no mate the rogues are totally fail atm our dmg is not fine u have some burst every min with Sdance that is by far so easy to be counter on muti u have a cd every 2 min and if u swap u;re useless and combat well combat pvp is still far to be anywhere near competitive pvp , so please go have a chat with your friend GC and fix the class

[Grawlix]

hello are u Ghostcrowler cuz sure u do sound like him no mate the rogues are totally fail atm our dmg is not fine u have some burst every min with Sdance that is by far so easy to be counter on muti u have a cd every 2 min and if u swap u;re useless and combat well combat pvp is still far to be anywhere near competitive pvp , so please go have a chat with your friend GC and fix the class

No, I'm just a Gladiator, 3x RBG hero, non-fotm rogue that knows how to play my class. And for reference, in PvP go Sub or go home.

[Kezuma]

No, I'm just a Gladiator, 3x RBG hero, non-fotm rogue that knows how to play my class. And for reference, in PvP go Sub or go home.

i hardly think u would be any close to a gladiator this season my friend and rly the fact that u come here and say ye ye i;m gladiator the class is fine dosnt cut it , just cuz u;ve been a gladiator when the rogues were fine dosnt make them fine now

[Caliph]

Meh emotions or not, the rogues never cease to amaze me. How many times have they told everyone to l2p when the shoe was on the other foot yet here they are crying that they're not viable.

or what was it they said, reroll. well reroll. and nobody gives a rat's but about arena. if you can't burst lock someone down then use all that utility you've been crying about wanting for so long.

never ends.

[Kezuma]

Meh emotions or not, the rogues never cease to amaze me. How many times have they told everyone to l2p when the shoe was on the other foot yet here they are crying that they're not viable.

or what was it they said, reroll. well reroll. and nobody gives a rat's but about arena. if you can't burst lock someone down then use all that utility you've been crying about wanting for so long.

never ends.

care to example that all utility we have? cuz frankly ic all the classes have more CC more survive and more mobility than rogues

[Firebert]

No, I'm just a Gladiator, 3x RBG hero, non-fotm rogue that knows how to play my class. And for reference, in PvP go Sub or go home.

Any evidence to back up that final statement?

[Grawlix]

Any evidence to back up that final statement?

Not interested in posting armory to back-up my statements simply because Kezuma feels that rogues are awful and unplayable.

@Kezuma, I never said the class was fine. If you read my post, yes, we need buffs to mobility and control. Not huge buffs, but a moderate bit of help in both of those departments. Our burst, survivability, and sustained damage is fine. Sustained could maybe see a slight buff, if burst is nerfed a tad to compensate. Don't compare our damage to that of other, unbalanced classes. They need to be nerfed to our level, we don't need to be buffed to theirs.

[Kezuma]

u do realise would be far easyer to buff rogues to their lvl than to nerf 5-6-7 specs to our level and if they nerf them to our lvl the forums will swarm with QQS even more than we have for the rogues atm imagine all the mages cry without their retarded dmg or control as for your armory no1 rly takes your word for granted a multiple gladiator and an amaizing x3 hero prolly would be more than helpfull to link armory and some insight of how we can get better rather than wont post and u have to belive i;m who i say i'm and yet again we need more than a moderate help in our departments

[Shaderas]

Not interested in posting armory to back-up my statements simply because Kezuma feels that rogues are awful and unplayable.

@Kezuma, I never said the class was fine. If you read my post, yes, we need buffs to mobility and control. Not huge buffs, but a moderate bit of help in both of those departments. Our burst, survivability, and sustained damage is fine. Sustained could maybe see a slight buff, if burst is nerfed a tad to compensate. Don't compare our damage to that of other, unbalanced classes. They need to be nerfed to our level, we don't need to be buffed to theirs.

Gotta ask, you would like to see our mechanics updated right? Give the class a slightly more dynamic feel, too much damage from passive sources, etc.

[Grawlix]

u do realise would be far easyer to buff rogues to their lvl than to nerf 5-6-7 specs to our level and if they nerf them to our lvl the forums will swarm with QQS even more than we have for the rogues atm imagine all the mages cry without their retarded dmg or control as for your armory no1 rly takes your word for granted a multiple gladiator and an amaizing x3 hero prolly would be more than helpfull to link armory and some insight of how we can get better rather than wont post and u have to belive i;m who i say i'm and yet again we need more than a moderate help in our departments

Easier =/= more balanced. Blizzard doesn't want everyone to have a mage's/warrior's control, burst, and sustained damage. There was a blue post a couple weeks ago stating that rogue damage is where it needs to be, and that other classes/specs are too high. "Calling me out" on not posting my armory doesn't bother me. I know my experience, and I also know my class. If you think we aren't viable, you're wrong. Rank 1 team on Nightfall 3v3 ladder US was thugcleave (rogue/hunter/healer, [don't remember which heal it was])

Truth is, we need moderate buffs. Blind down to 1.5 minute CD is a perfect change. 1 minute CD would have been overpowered. Sprint change (since then revoked) was a step in the wrong direction. By buffs in mobility, we need the ability to have less cycles going in order to deal maximum sustained damage (SnD/rupture or garrote on target/Recuperate if defensive) is a bit too much to ask at this stage of the game, seeing as we're pretty energy starved. Needing to apply rupture in a switch isn't all that difficult, but it does hinder our ability to quickly swap targets.

@Shaderas, depends what you mean, really. Hard to judge whether or not a more "dynamic" feel would be fun or not. I like rogue's playstyle, and I don't feel huge changes are necessary. Too much damage from passive sources is more of a pve thing, honestly. However, if blizzard wants to cut down on damage from passive sources, adding things like required rupture is the wrong way to go.

[Kezuma]

from EU is a bit hard to watch all the ladder EU/US to check for a rogue team top but i'm pretty sure the fact they were rank 1 might be from the quad dmg of the hunter stampede and prolly an op rshaman (oh and btw who brings up names like thugcleave ))) i get it beastcleave , or spellcleave w/e but this?!! wth

[Yvaelle]

What difference is there between a pvp geared rogue jumping you while you do dailies, and a pvp geared DK ganking you from his flying mount?

You have a chance to see the DK coming if you are vigilant - with the rogue - no amount of vigilance will prepare you for the sap - so in a sense you have a chance to 'outplay' non-stealth classes by being aware of your surroundings: not true versus rogues/ferals. Secondly, the DK commits - he might have the first strike - and that means a lot - but if he starts losing the fight he can't run away, its a duel and an unfair one, but someone is going to die: will it be you or him? By contrast, rogues don't get much sympathy because when the tide of battle starts flowing against them, they vanish - only to reappear once they have returned to full health to try it again. It is unfair - just like being opened on by a DK from a flying mount - but unlike the DK vs X being a duel, a fight versus a rogue is never a duel - the rogue is never at threat of dying. Either you die (you being the non-rogue), or the rogue waits until you are vulnerable and out of cooldowns and tries again - nothing you do will ever be a threat to the rogue so long as they hold the ability to vanish and return later - and the ability to open from stealth without giving us any ability to 'outplay' them by spotting them flying in (in the case of a ganking DK).

Now, just to be clear - I'm not suggesting rogues don't deserve sympathy right now, and certainly not that rogues are anything more than broken right now - but it's for the above reasons that people detest rogues the way they do. A DK can be a jerk, but he has to be an honorable jerk (he can gank, but if he loses he dies instead) - rogues are encouraged not just to be jerks, but to be dishonorable jerks. Nobody respects the dishonorable, not in any culture on the planet - ruthlessnes can be prized - but rogues aren't ruthless, they're worse than that: they are betrayers, thrill-killers, and, dare I say it, rogues

Just to hammer the point home, it's a mistake to liken WoW rogues to Assassins. Assassins are something we (the gamer community in particular, but pop culture in general) admire - but look at popular Assassin examples and compare it to the behaviour of WoW rogues. Altair Ibin L'Ahad, Ezio Auditore and whoever the new dude is in Assassins Creed all fight for a cause - they gank unsuspecting guards, they murder people in the streets - often even popular public figures - but through the stories told we invariably find that we use the word 'Assassin' to denote someone who is going against the grain, but who is ultimately killing for the right reasons.

Corvo from Dishonored is another excellent example, despised by the very people he protects - he is wrongfully accused and seeks justice and to stop a grand-scale heinous plot against the people at large. Most people hate him because he goes around killing everyone they respect - by the end of the game he's probably killed a quarter of the city by hand - despicable, right? But through the story you discover there was purpose to it. This same motif is true for all modern uses of the word Assassin.

Now compare that behaviour - reviled but ultimately for the right reasons, and certainly for a cause even if you disagree with their methods - to the behaviour of WoW rogues who gank. Are they ganking you for a greater cause? No. Is there some secret plot by the lowbie alts of Azeroth that threatens the world? No. If they were at least gaining something - even just monetarily - from their actions, then we could call them Mercenaries. Are they gaining something? Beyond the pittance of honor that is all but worthless after a day in battlegrounds? No. They do it solely for their own schadenfreude - they take pleasure from the suffering of those around them, and no other reason.

That's why people don't like rogue gankers in particular

Edit: Also, buff rogues!

[Grawlix]

It is annoying when rogues try to run away when they attack me (on alts, on my main rogue I generally just turn around and kill them). Good rogue gankers make sure to get the job done right on the first try!

[Shaderas]

You have a chance to see the DK coming if you are vigilant - with the rogue - no amount of vigilance will prepare you for the sap - so in a sense you have a chance to 'outplay' non-stealth classes by being aware of your surroundings: not true versus rogues/ferals. Secondly, the DK commits - he might have the first strike - and that means a lot - but if he starts losing the fight he can't run away, its a duel and an unfair one, but someone is going to die: will it be you or him? By contrast, rogues don't get much sympathy because when the tide of battle starts flowing against them, they vanish - only to reappear once they have returned to full health to try it again. It is unfair - just like being opened on by a DK from a flying mount - but unlike the DK vs X being a duel, a fight versus a rogue is never a duel - the rogue is never at threat of dying. Either you die (you being the non-rogue), or the rogue waits until you are vulnerable and out of cooldowns and tries again - nothing you do will ever be a threat to the rogue so long as they hold the ability to vanish and return later - and the ability to open from stealth without giving us any ability to 'outplay' them by spotting them flying in (in the case of a ganking DK).

Now, just to be clear - I'm not suggesting rogues don't deserve sympathy right now, and certainly not that rogues are anything more than broken right now - but it's for the above reasons that people detest rogues the way they do. A DK can be a jerk, but he has to be an honorable jerk (he can gank, but if he loses he dies instead) - rogues are encouraged not just to be jerks, but to be dishonorable jerks. Nobody respects the dishonorable, not in any culture on the planet - ruthlessnes can be prized - but rogues aren't ruthless, they're worse than that: they are betrayers, thrill-killers, and, dare I say it, rogues

Just to hammer the point home, it's a mistake to liken WoW rogues to Assassins. Assassins are something we (the gamer community in particular, but pop culture in general) admire - but look at popular Assassin examples and compare it to the behaviour of WoW rogues. Altair Ibin L'Ahad, Ezio Auditore and whoever the new dude is in Assassins Creed all fight for a cause - they gank unsuspecting guards, they murder people in the streets - often even popular public figures - but through the stories told we invariably find that we use the word 'Assassin' to denote someone who is going against the grain, but who is ultimately killing for the right reasons.

Corvo from Dishonored is another excellent example, despised by the very people he protects - he is wrongfully accused and seeks justice and to stop a grand-scale heinous plot against the people at large. Most people hate him because he goes around killing everyone they respect - by the end of the game he's probably killed a quarter of the city by hand - despicable, right? But through the story you discover there was purpose to it. This same motif is true for all modern uses of the word Assassin.

Now compare that behaviour - reviled but ultimately for the right reasons, and certainly for a cause even if you disagree with their methods - to the behaviour of WoW rogues who gank. Are they ganking you for a greater cause? No. Is there some secret plot by the lowbie alts of Azeroth that threatens the world? No. If they were at least gaining something - even just monetarily - from their actions, then we could call them Mercenaries. Are they gaining something? Beyond the pittance of honor that is all but worthless after a day in battlegrounds? No. They do it solely for their own schadenfreude - they take pleasure from the suffering of those around them, and no other reason.

That's why people don't like rogue gankers in particular

Edit: Also, buff rogues!

Yes, but Feral Druids and Hunters (now with their Camouflage glyph) can take you from stealth too. And in open world, you get virtually no warning when someone swoops down off a flying mount to gank you. So I find the point relatively moot about the stealth part.

Also, Mages have a vanish like ability (Greater Invis), so do Druids... so I don't feel that Rogues are the only class that can reset a fight anymore.

[Florena]

I got bored with my rogue. I've played her since late BC, and just got tired of the class and switched to monk. Windwalker has some similarities with rogues that made it easy to pick up, while also being distinct enough to not really feel the same after I'd gotten used to it. Not so much that I hate where rogues are at, but we just haven't gotten any substantial changes, just new utility spells, and I've gotten bored.

[Kezuma]

It is annoying when rogues try to run away when they attack me (on alts, on my main rogue I generally just turn around and kill them). Good rogue gankers make sure to get the job done right on the first try!

idd i never jumped on some1 and didnt killed , as a reply to Yvaelle aswell that cant make me a disshonorable rogue right i went there and i got the job done as for the betrayers and thrill-killers or whatever u called us well i have to remind u we helped Wrathion to kill his father the one and only Deathwing is the untold story to those who havent done the legendary quest so in a big picture we saved the azeroth yet ppl who dont know that thing ignorance is bliss and those who know are just ungracefull , see Yvaelle nice story for u not only in Assassins creed or where u look (so now in MoP u get legendary gems from Wrathion because the rogue comunity helped him so were is the love we deserve now eh?)

[Deleted]

Never anywhere near where dks were. All of cata they were op'd, all of bc they were op'd, one part of lk they were almost balanced. The time has come where it dawned on blizz that people don't like rogues because they're cheap, real easy, and op'd. If rogues were leaving at the end of cata imo it's because they were so powerful that it just became super boring. I mean really I can't imagine myself having no competition and just destroying everybody. The only comp they had was a mage and super warlocks. everybody else was dead.

They were top dps in pve and tops in pvp. that gets old fast if you don't have anything to reach for.

You sir have no idea whatsoever what you're talking about. My main is an restoration Shaman, I've only played rogue as an alt and not even the most played one (that's an holy paladin). Yet it is absolutely obvious to even me that you're biased beyond belief.

Oh belief my I had my fair share of rogue rage, just like I raged about other classes but for rogues it was mostly because they constantly tended to get away and elude the death they "deserved" at that point. This alone is an incredible frustrating mechanic for everyone else and explains why some people hate them. A DK can't simply vanish and is gone, neither can most other classes.

Even with Glaives rogues weren't anywhere near as "op" as you're trying to make them out to be and sure as hell nowhere near even with vial + legendaries where warriors currently are. I could survive an rogue even back then when he was on me, even an procc of the legendary. Neither held true for an warrior back in Wotlk with shadow mourne (I loved being two shotted by one with full arena gear and soul link back at the end of Wotlk) and I love even more being killed in stun charge simply because warriors pop some cool downs.
It took rogues two legendary daggers and an absolutely idiotic trinket to even remotely approach the levels DK and Warriors reach nearly every single last expansion.

As for your claim of rogue being constantly op. In fact they started many expansions far to weak and were then consecutively buffed to be even up to par. Only at the end they actually became strong because they scalate with gear fairly well.

No, I'm just a Gladiator, 3x RBG hero, non-fotm rogue that knows how to play my class. And for reference, in PvP go Sub or go home.

How about backing this claim up?

Now compare that behaviour - reviled but ultimately for the right reasons, and certainly for a cause even if you disagree with their methods - to the behaviour of WoW rogues who gank. Are they ganking you for a greater cause? No. Is there some secret plot by the lowbie alts of Azeroth that threatens the world? No. If they were at least gaining something - even just monetarily - from their actions, then we could call them Mercenaries. Are they gaining something? Beyond the pittance of honor that is all but worthless after a day in battlegrounds? No. They do it solely for their own schadenfreude - they take pleasure from the suffering of those around them, and no other reason.

That's why people don't like rogue gankers in particular

Edit: Also, buff rogues!

The problem is that this holds true for every single last class. The only difference is that rogues are the one who against most classes simply can't die if they really don't want to. The few exceptions being those classes with a bleed and even then the rogue using vanish and stealth might get far enough away to mount up. Something that aside from them only Druids are now after getting a vanish able to do.
In fact give the whole druid and vanish thing some thing, druids to properly learn how to run off and Blizzard to introduce Cloak for Ferals and they will be loathed just the same.

[Iite]

You didn't see rogues because of their stealth