What on Earth happened to rogues?!

[Kuthe]

Oh no. Rogues aren't stunlocking you for an insta-kill. Much be Underpowered.

They are in a bad place, but it's better than in Season 12? *or what it 11*.

[Velshin]

They're pretty much what they were back in Wrath. Maybe a tad worse - maybe.

Also, legendaries weren't the reason they were so good last season.

Yeah I'm not saying legendary is the main reason why rogues were so OP last season but it plays a major part of it tbh being it's too easy to get + smoke bomb + when it procs it's basically game over if your target doesn't trinket your smoke bomb or using immunity cd.

[Yvaelle]

Nothing happened to them.
Players with ezmode legendary's stopped playing them once MoP hit, and the scrubs that did great are still attempting to use them, to no avail.
I have full MoP blues (except jewelry), dual 442 daggers @ 85, and absolutely destroy shit as sub with ~80% mastery.

I actually didn't think any real nerfs had happened to them either until I mentioned to Verain (a smart rogue poster around these parts) that I thought the reasons rogues were weak right now was because other classes had just gotten significantly stronger, while rogues hadnt significantly changed. I found his response pretty informative:

Rogues actually did change a lot. Before you would run sub, and the following things were true:
Ambush crit +45% of the time.
Backstab crit +30% of the time.
Backstab crits refund energy.
Blind two minute cooldown, now three.
Vanish two minute cooldown, now three.
Cloak 90 second cooldown, now teo minutes.
Used to be able to prep into second smokebomb, and second shadowstep to get a kill. Prep no longer resets bomb, and step and prep are exclusive.
While second bomb was OP as shit, removing it is a massive uncompensated nerf.
A prep rogue can no longer step redirect kidney, or step gouge. These were pro rogue things that I made use of.
A prep rogue can no longer step kick or step charge, pro rogue things I did not do.
Backstab no longer has 20% extra critical damage.
Backstab and hemo damage rolled into eviscerate. While this change is cool, remember that rogues in pvp use finishers on kidney shot, recuperate slice and dice, and rupture.
Sub rogues have to rupture. Previously our hemo granted a damage bonus, now it is a weak finisher not otherwise worth casting, but it is still madatory or we lose like a fifth of our damage. This also shits all over target swaps, where we essentially have about -60 energy compared to before: it is the worst pvp change possible. GC said at the time that he was aware there were pvp issues, and that the change was happening for pve, and that buffs eould happen. There have been literally 0 rogue buffs since that point in beta, only nerfs.
A sub rogue used to kidney, evis, and recup. Now add rupture and slice, as our energy regen was moved to slice from recup, and the above mentioned rupture change, and then remember that evis went up in damage while builders went down and notice the huge discrepancy when you remember that we now have less finishers and less combo points AND weak builders.
Rogues no longer gain 20% healing recieved (cats can still).
Rogues no longer take 6% less damage during recup, in addition to recup costing so much more relatively.
Recup nerfed even with the glyph
Shiv redesign has benefits, but lowers rogue control significantly.
---<<< CRIPPLE DOWN TO 50% FROM 70% >>---


These are rogue nerfs. They all hurt a lot. Your assessment about other classes gaining wild buffs is true, but the rogue changes have been devastating in pvp.

The cripple change is shocking. The 70% snare was our reason for having poor mobility- now it gets taken away PLUS a huge mobility nerf?

Now obviously as a lifetime rogue main, he's a bit biased - but that's actually a pretty big list of nerfs that as he points out, when taken in aggregate, explain a lot more of why rogues suddenly went from overpowered last season to terrible this season than the loss of legendaries and vial explain.

The rogue legendary proc last season wasn't very effective in pvp - it took over a minute of up-time to build up 30+ stacks at which point it became possible for the legendary to proc (but it may not proc until up to 2 minutes / 50 stacks if you weren't lucky), once procced you spam some eviscerates - but spamming eviscerate was what Subtlety did anyways. The proc was weakest for the only really competitive rogue spec last season (Subtlety). CC'ing the rogue for like (10 or 15 seconds, but in either case a proper CC train always did it) would reset their stacks, so against any RLS or RMP or the like (warlocks, mages) where a CC chain is always a succession of fears to fears to fears (or polys to polys to polys), you never saw the legendary even proc: without the proc the weapons themselves had stats equivalent to heroic deathwing weapons (of which, heroic gurthalak was the strongest weapon of the expansion by far).

The real problem was that rogues were just too strong by the end of the season (they scale well every expansion but start out weak as a consequence, as some people already mentioned), and Vial - even after the significant nerf - was still way too good (so were Cunning and Fetish). Combined with strong seasons for mages, affliction locks and disc priests - rogues were in high demand for RMP's and RLS's (and as a result, last season consisted of RMPs and RLS's overwhelmingly).

[Wow]

As post above points out what most don't get almost everything about rogues in pvp was nerfed in someway theres no amount of scaling that going to make up for all the massive nerfs. As I said its not about the dmg its everything else.

[Deleted]

They're pretty much what they were back in Wrath. Maybe a tad worse - maybe.

Also, legendaries weren't the reason they were so good last season.

Legendaries combined with vial of shadows who alone did insane ammounts of damage.

Thing is that rogues currently are pretty much garbage. They lack the survivability other classes have, they have nearly no mobility whatsoever compared to classes who have far thicker armor, their damage even during burst phases is actually below that of others and so on and on and on.

Also the talent revampt hit them hard. Because while other classes often got many talents for free things like +% crit on ambush, reduced armor and others seem to be simply gone as of now.

[Nuvuk]

There is the possibility of undergear, maybe he forgot to add his poisons or had the wrong poisons on. There is also the possibility that he forgot he had rez sickness and he joined a bg. I know I did that once.

[Deleted]

They stopped being OP.

[Yvaelle]

Also the talent revampt hit them hard. Because while other classes often got many talents for free things like +% crit on ambush, reduced armor and others seem to be simply gone as of now.

Actually, Find Weakness (70% armor penetration for 10 seconds after using a Stealth Attack - Ambush, Garrote, Cheap Shot) is still in, it was made baseline for Subtlety rogues, and Mutilates comparatively higher poison based damage now also effectively is additional armor penetration (in that armor matters less to them now than it did before, albeit only slightly). So that's one nice thing they did get to keep

[Raldazzar]

Long story short, I was fighting Nessos for that shell trinket. a spriest comes, fears me off, dots me up, I go back, all cd's. I use every single cd, Im not the greatest rogue, but im not the worst, Ive been to 2.2k, i know my class. 7 year+ vet.

and every time, I'd pummel him down to like 25%.. one fear... and then by the time im back on target hes full hp.

rogues are a laughing stock now. the above mentioned is all true, other classses may not like it, but they certainly cant debunk it

[Deleted]

1. He was probably very undergeared
2. Rogues were overpowered last season, and they are slightly below average this season.

Please don't encourage the QQ
everyone is well aware of this now.

If with three possible DPS specs they are the least played class (bar monks) in all arena brackets and that's "slighty below average", what would be "terrible"? (Not implying the class is terrible, just wondering)

[Deleted]

If with three possible DPS specs they are the least played class (bar monks) in all arena brackets and that's "slighty below average", what would be "terrible"? (Not implying the class is terrible, just wondering)

Warrior almost whole Cataclysm.

[Deleted]

Warrior almost whole Cataclysm.

Warrior detected. Warrior were damn strong in season 9 and they were average at worst in 10 and 11. Their only problem was that two classes they were struggling against were extremly strong. But of course for an warrior everything below the current state of warriors is "terrible" and "unplayable".

[Deleted]

Warrior detected. Warrior were damn strong in season 9 and they were average at worst in 10 and 11. Their only problem was that two classes they were struggling against were extremly strong. But of course for an warrior everything below the current state of warriors is "terrible" and "unplayable".

So warriors were least played after first season in Cataclysm. With your logic I'm going to say, rogues are just fine now.

[Pua]

Also, legendaries weren't the reason they were so good last season.

The easy-to-get legendaries helped rogues, but you're right - they would have been overpowered without them.

Warrior detected. Warrior were damn strong in season 9 and they were average at worst in 10 and 11. Their only problem was that two classes they were struggling against were extremly strong. But of course for an warrior everything below the current state of warriors is "terrible" and "unplayable".

I'd go further and say warriors were overpowered in season nine, actually. That said, they were way below average by season 11; they had nothing going for them at that stage and were bettered by leather-melee in every meaningful way.

They're back to overpowered again now because it seems the playerbase can't be realistic in its feedback. A spec is either "god mode" or "terribly broken", with nothing in between. Add that to the sheer silliness of some commentary and you get this season of PvP.

Probably the worst ever.

[Deleted]

So warriors were least played after first season in Cataclysm. With your logic I'm going to say, rogues are just fine now.

That is utterly untrue.. UR A LIAR!!!

Everyone who knows ANYTHING about arena knows that there has been one class at the bottom played in Arena for years and they were bottom throughout the ENTIRE Cataclysm... thats Hunters!

ur sir are completely inventing bullcrap and taking it as fact.. i suggest u do some research before spouting lies about Warriors ever being in a bad place in PvP.

The truth about Warriors at the start of Cataclysm is that they were OP and Blizzard was forced to install a quickfix nerf due to their retardedly massive damage and stuns which was breaking PvP...

[Deleted]

That is utterly untrue.. UR A LIAR!!!

Everyone who knows ANYTHING about arena knows that there has been one class at the bottom played in Arena for years and they were bottom throughout the ENTIRE Cataclysm... thats Hunters!

ur sir are completely inventing bullcrap and taking it as fact.. i suggest u do some research before spouting lies about Warriors ever being in a bad place in PvP.

The truth about Warriors at the start of Cataclysm is that they were OP and Blizzard was forced to install a quickfix nerf due to their retardedly massive damage and stuns which was breaking PvP...

Not sure if sarcasm or just stupid. Hunters had very much viability in Cataclysm.

[Deleted]

Hunters had very much viability in Cataclysm.

The fact they only had around 2% arena representation shows they were the least played in Arena... thats what i said and its FACT.

True they did get some nice PvP buffs during Cata which meant they ended Cata being very viable Arena class but they remained the bottom of the Arena class list since probably just after TBC, they were certainly bottom throughout Wrath.

Right now Rogue and Monk are the least played class in arena. As proved by the data... Warriors top ofc :P

http://www.crossladder.com/arena/stats/

PS apologies if your comment was sarcasm, i confess i didnt read the entire thread lol

EDIT: another interesting point to the stats shown on that webiste is that RMP is now dead and DMP is the preffered setup. 2nd most played setup in 3v3 and ofc RMP not even making the ranking list its so bad now.

[Deleted]

True they did get some nice PvP buffs during Cata which meant they ended Cata being very viable Arena class but they remained the bottom of the Arena class list since probably just after TBC, they were certainly bottom throughout Wrath.

Beastcleave where far from a bottom line comp in Wrath.

[Deleted]

Beastcleave where far from a bottom line comp in Wrath.

Still doesnt change my point.. Hunters were the least represented class in Arena. They were definitely the lowest represented over 2k in any bracket.

[Deleted]

Still doesnt change my point.. Hunters were the least represented class in Arena. They were definitely the lowest represented over 2k in any bracket.

Mind digging up some source on hunters being least represented? I could swear that warriors were on the bottom.