PVP power nerf must be a joke?

[Highmoon7]

Despite calling hybrids OP all day don't forget there was only 1 hybrid at the world final. 1 all other dps were pure, mage, lock warrior ect. If they were so op all the top PvP player would be using them.

[Verain]

Well, warriors and mages are both getting some nerfs. You don't mean pure, you mean non-healer!

[anderekel]

Despite calling hybrids OP all day don't forget there was only 1 hybrid at the world final. 1 all other dps were pure, mage, lock warrior ect. If they were so op all the top PvP player would be using them.

Well, you also have to remember that the teams in the battle.net tournament were qualified during cata. Notice how Yaspresents qualified as ret/dk/priest, but played as warrior/mage/shaman most of the games?

[Velerios]

As far as i know at least for now there is no nerf of PvP-Power until now, but i also don't want this nerf, because classes that are balanced about healing themself will be more affected then classes that don't have this kind of heal (frost mages i look at you ^^)

Instead of this healing itself should be affected by resilience. Healing should be reduced by resilience as damage is, but PvP-Power should neglect this. And Healer should be balanced about this change. So there is no need to nerf pvp-power, instead PvP-Power do the same for healer as is does for an dd.

[Yvaelle]

This is exactly the problem. All hybrid classes are receiving a huge nerf because spriests are OP. What other hybrid class is highly represented in a non-healing spec?

There is a big difference between having a rank 1 capable comp, and having a high representation. What percent of comps over 2200 do you think Shatterplay makes up - including shadow/frost/rsham, shadow/frost/rdruid and shadow/frost/hpal variants combined? If you said more than 5%, you're overestimating Shatterplays representation (think about that). Shadow/frost/rsham is actually just 2.5% of 2200+ comps, while shadow/frost/rdruid is just 1.5% of 2200+ comps. Meanwhile Shadow/Demonology/Rsham is just 0.75% of 2200+ comps - shadow/affliction and shadow/destruction variants are each 0.11%.

Sources:

Shadow / X / X
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...-0-0-0--0.html

Shadow / Warlock / X
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...-0-0-0--0.html

All told, 10-11% of 2200+ comps have a shadowpriest on their team - that's only slightly over what you would expect if every spec in the game had equal representation above 2200. There are 34 specs in the game, each 3v3 team has 3 players on it (presumably of different specs, representation is actually worse because I'm totally ignoring any comp that takes double hunters or double warriors or double dks or double mages - so my math is if anything overestimating shadows representation here). If each spec had perfect representation above 2200, you can calculate what that would look like as (1 / 34) * 3 = 8.82% - Shadow is slightly under 11% of comps, so we're above that number, but not drastically - especcially when you take into account that some specs are broken, and some specs are not meant to be competitive in pvp.

If you factor out specs which aren't meant to be competitive in arena (tank specs, holy priests, etc) and specs that are clearly broken and unrepresented this season (all rogue specs, disc priests, etc) - that 11% shadow representation means that if anything - shadow is under-represented right now as a spec. Just factoring out tank specs (blood, prot, prot, guardian, brewmaster) 34 specs becomes 29 specs: (1 / 29) * 3 = 10.34% - that's pretty close to Shadow's representation above 2200. Now, what specs are broken right now is a controversial claim - but all holy priest comps combined appear on about half a percent of all 2200+ teams - so it's probably fair to say holy is not 2200+ capable.

All comps that have a disc priest on them make up less than 2% of 2200+ comps (way less than the 10.34% representation we would see if equal balance existed, exempting tanks) - so it's probably also fair to say disc priests aren't really 2200+ capable this season. All rogue specs combined (that's 3 specs) make up about 2% representation - so if disc priests aren't competitive (2% representation as opposed to the at least 10.34% representation you would expect for equal spec representation) then certainly all rogue specs aren't 2200+ capable this season (3 specs combined have less representation than disc priests alone, who aren't competitive). Fury warrior's also have about 2% representation above 2200, making them as common as disc priests. So if we exempt holy priests, disc priests, rogues, fury warriors and tank specs from being counted as competitive this season (either because they aren't meant to be competitive or are beyond broken right now), equal representation between 2200+ capable specs right now can be calculated as: (1 / 23) * 3 = 13.04%.

Sources:
All comps containing a holy priest:
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...-0-0-0--0.html

All comps containing a disc priest:
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...-0-0-0--0.html

All comps containing a rogue:
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...-0-0-0--0.html


Suddenly, Shadow's 11% representation is actually below balanced representation for this season - isn't it? And that's before the 50% healing bonus from pvp power we have that we are losing in 5.1, and the massive nerf to psyfiend in 5.1 - why then am I advocating the pvp power nerf? Because it's not right - it's not right for shadow to be able to heal as much as we do, just as it's not right for rets to do it, or boomkins to do it, or elementals to do it, or enhancement to do it. Now, that doesn't mean that all these specs need nerfs (the pvp power change is a big nerf to all these specs) - many of these specs will need buffs after the pvp power change goes through (and as much as you will probably protest, shadow very likely will too) - but Blizzard obviously didn't intend for hybrids to heal as much as we do: the pvp power nerf fixes that.

Rets may like to know (since most of the people I seem to be talking to play ret paladins) you are actually more represented than Shadow above 2200. The reason why shadow seems to have better representation right now is that Shadow only has 1 comp right now - Shatterplay. What about Shadowplay? It has about 1% of comps right now, did you know Shadow / Arms Warrior / Resto Shaman is actually better represented than all Shadowplay variants (different healer or warlock combinations) combined? I've never even heard of Shadow / Arms / Rsham - and I bet many of you haven't either. If our comps are entirely dependent on Frost Mages, Arms Warriors, Resto Shamans and Shadow heals - all of which are getting nerfed in 5.1 - what do you think is about to happen to shadow representation?

Shadow comps:
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...-0-0-0--0.html

Rets, by contrast, don't have any real comps that stand out in our minds - their best comp turns out to be Ret / Arms Warrior / BM Hunter at only 1.17% representation, followed by Ret / Arms / Resto Shaman at just 0.75% representation. But rets have enormous comp diversity above 2200 - from the looks of it you can combine a ret with just about any dps and any healer, or any two dps - and people have got that comp above 2200 this season. What's different is that while Shadow has 1 comp that sticks out in everyones mind (Shatterplay), Rets have no distinctly best comp - but in terms of number of rets above 2200 versus number of spriests - rets are actually, in total - better represented.

Ret comps above 2200:
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...-0-0-0--0.html

Now, if you want to be mad at someone about pvp balance this season - just get your facts straight (that's all I'm asking). Mages appear on like more than 20% of 2200+ comps this season, Warriors appear in 20% of 2200+ comps this season, Hunter - even after the Stampede hotfix, still appear in ~18% of comps this season. DKs appear in like 16% of comps this season. Resto Shamans appear in like 20%+ of comps this season. Resto Druids appear in 20%+ of comps this season. If 13% is balanced representation exempting broken specs and tank specs, these are the specs that are far exceeding balanced. Shadowpriests are not oppressing rets, that ret spots are in direct competition with warrior and dk spots who are both over-represented to varying degrees - that's what is holding rets back. But representation isn't the real problem rets have, their representation is already better than Shadows - though ret is still below 'balanced' representation it is only so by a couple percent. The real ret problem - is that no comp that contains a ret thrives - they are all 2200+ capable - but none of them are really rank 1 capable - there are lots of rets above 2200, but I bet if you look at rets versus shadow above 2600 - you would see more shadowpriests (all in shatterplays) than rets (no rank 1 capable comp). The problem with doing this at a higher cutoff than 2200 is the MMR exploit at say, a 2600 cutoff - skews the numbers way too much - so I can't provide evidence for that - but I doubt anyone doubts it

[Kezuma]

a bit off topic ppl still complain about dif classes to get nerfed or to much or to less pvp power to much healing offspec to hybrids and stuffs like that a small recap Lock+mage 2010 - 2011 - 2012 team either rank 1 or rank 2 in the blizzcon finals i think they nerf the wrong thing

[Yvaelle]

a bit off topic ppl still complain about dif classes to get nerfed or to much or to less pvp power to much healing offspec to hybrids and stuffs like that a small recap Lock+mage 2010 - 2011 - 2012 team either rank 1 or rank 2 in the blizzcon finals i think they nerf the wrong thing

Whether you are balancing around the rank 1 / world championships quality players, or representation above 2200 - nerfing hybrid healers really shouldn't be their top priority. But nerfs don't occur sequentially, multiple nerfs can occur at a time - and are going to in 5.1 - I don't think the mage nerfs are hard enough, I think rsham nerfs are probably called for and don't appear - and I think while hybrid healing is too high, no hybrid spec (even shadow or ret) is really the main problem right now when we have half the representation of the top specs even with our healing as strong as it is. Hybrid healing is too strong, but obviously - nerfing mages, arms warriors, bm hunters, resto specs and to a lesser extent dks are where their attention should be focused - hopefully more changes are coming though (and possibly, some buffs to some hybrids).

[klaps_05]

sp and rets are above others because others arent really being played for offheals. pvp power should benefit only your main role and give no bonus to 2ndary. so healers shouldnt do extra dmg and hybrids shouldnt do crazy heals

[Yvaelle]

sp and rets are above others because others arent really being played for offheals. pvp power should benefit only your main role and give no bonus to 2ndary. so healers shouldnt do extra dmg and hybrids shouldnt do crazy heals

That's what the 5.1 change will do, yes

[Verain]

We still have no confirmation that this change is in 5.1.

[Munashe the Cheetah]

Excellent, insightful, and objective perspective on the issue Yvaelle, thanks for the read.

I would like to add however that your representation of resto druids and shamans may be off as the healer slot in a comp is not just a typical spot and should not count as the same weight.

It seems to me that since most comps will have a healer that means the 5 healing specs will fill 33% of spots in nearly every comp. while the other two spots are filled by all of the rest of the 29 specs (less factoring out tanks and such like you said).

So to make it fair, you almost need to do a representation of the healer slot, and then a representation of the other two slots, and the two do not over lap. Ideally you would want to see 20% representation for each healer factoring in only that one slot in a comp. Obviously resto shamans are going to be far more plentiful, while resto druids and holy paladins should make up a fairly healthy chunk, with disc priests and mistweaver monks taking up the rear. If this is the case, it suggests that resto shamans need some nerfs, disc priests and mistweaver monks need some buffs, while resto druids and holy paladins may in fact be fine where they are?

Just a thought.

[Yvaelle]

Excellent, insightful, and objective perspective on the issue Yvaelle, thanks for the read.

I would like to add however that your representation of resto druids and shamans may be off as the healer slot in a comp is not just a typical spot and should not count as the same weight.

It seems to me that since most comps will have a healer that means the 5 healing specs will fill 33% of spots in nearly every comp. while the other two spots are filled by all of the rest of the 29 specs (less factoring out tanks and such like you said).

So to make it fair, you almost need to do a representation of the healer slot, and then a representation of the other two slots, and the two do not over lap. Ideally you would want to see 20% representation for each healer factoring in only that one slot in a comp. Obviously resto shamans are going to be far more plentiful, while resto druids and holy paladins should make up a fairly healthy chunk, with disc priests and mistweaver monks taking up the rear. If this is the case, it suggests that resto shamans need some nerfs, disc priests and mistweaver monks need some buffs, while resto druids and holy paladins may in fact be fine where they are?

Just a thought.

Thanks

Ya I agree, I should probably do a separate analysis on healing specs - your predictions of their representation are the same as what I expect. The other caveat is the number of triple DPS teams this season, since a number like say "20% of teams have a resto shaman" doesn't actually mean that 20% of X/X/Healer teams have an rshaman, but that 20% of ALL teams (triple DPS included) have an Rshaman on them. So even above, where 20% on the surface sounds like about the healing representation you would expect given a much smaller number of actual heal specs - it's not really comparable to saying 20% of teams have a warrior on them.

[Verain]

I will also point out that with so few healing classes, and healers in general being more socially desirable than dps, that we would actually expect a truly brokenly-powerful healer to be UNDERREPPED in those numbers. Pretend killing spree was bugged to do quadruple damage in arenas, and that you saw 20% of teams having a combat rogue. That would be SHOCKING. But if resto shaman were that overpowered, there's still simply put, a limit on the number of resto shaman. There aren't enough to go around, because of the nature of healers. Even if every team with a resto shaman auto-won versus any team without, you'd still have a decent number of non-rsham teams that got where they were losing to rsham teams but beating non-rsham teams.

[zyzz]

Okay don't have time to read all these posts. Sorry but will get round to it. Though just had a thought and will chuck this out there.

Say hybrids healing doesn't scale off pvp power anymore, what does it scale off exactly? Damage will increase, and health points will increase. But healing doesn't increase?

Doesn't that just mean healing becomes less and less powerful as the season continues to progress? If the scaling is the issue maybe pvp power should benefit your secondary stat by only 50%.

Also the point of this post is hybrid classes aren't particularly overpowered (maybe with the exception of spriests being good) So how is this nerf justified.

[Palatinus]

Doesn't that just mean healing becomes less and less powerful as the season continues to progress? If the scaling is the issue maybe pvp power should benefit your secondary stat by only 50%.

Correct, while hp % based heals, like recup and SW will continue to get stronger.

[Deleted]

Seems about right when warriors are critting 300k+ heroic strikes off the gcd. Oh wait that isnt being fixed (at least in 'patch notes').

Warriors are getting nerfed, heroic strike damage included, for the next patch. Besides, a 300k Heroic Strike took plenty of RNG to achieve, and you had a lot of time to interrupt him before it happened.

[kosechi]

Say hybrids healing doesn't scale off pvp power anymore, what does it scale off exactly? Damage will increase, and health points will increase. But healing doesn't increase?

word of glory scales off attackpower, pvppower and spellpower, so theoretically strength would increase it, but since ret damage scales so badly with strength....
i'm not entirely sure how healing storm scales with enhance stats, i assume its similar, but i might be wrong.

ret has potentially a lot of versatility in their ability to enable melee cleaves, but their damage just isn't there and their healing was what made up for their weak control. there is really no comp that doesn't already have a warrior/feral that can't be improved by replacing the ret with a warrior/feral.

shatterplay, shadowplay and shadow/feral/x are all stronger comps than ret/warr/druid, ret/dk/priest ( which can't be played nearly as effectively with a different healer), PHD and other traditional ret comps.

[Chainreactor]

Okay don't have time to read all these posts. Sorry but will get round to it. Though just had a thought and will chuck this out there.

Say hybrids healing doesn't scale off pvp power anymore, what does it scale off exactly? Damage will increase, and health points will increase. But healing doesn't increase?

Doesn't that just mean healing becomes less and less powerful as the season continues to progress? If the scaling is the issue maybe pvp power should benefit your secondary stat by only 50%.

Also the point of this post is hybrid classes aren't particularly overpowered (maybe with the exception of spriests being good) So how is this nerf justified.

Spell Caster Hybrids have their healing scale from SpellPower/Intellect

As Gear will progress Intellect / Stamina will increase which affects Damage, Healing and Health
U mention "Damage will Increase" and "Health points will increase" but fail to mention "Healing will Increase" by the same logic

PvP Power on the other hand is a "Bonus" Damage or Healing % in PvP Environment and Hybrids should NOT be double dipping on this stat

Coming to Melee hybrids well Enhance / Ret / Feral have their Healing Spells scale with Spell Power
Enhance = 55% for Attack Power = Spell Power
Ret = 50% of Attack Power = Spell Power
Feral = 100% of Agility = Spell Power

As Strenth/Agility and Attack Power of these Specs increase with Gear so will their Healing
Also Enhance has 20% Increase healing per stack of Maelstrom with Glyph and Rets have a flat 30% Increase to WoG/Flash of Light
Dont know if Feral has something like this

The Point is the Healing Capabilities of Hybrids WILL indeed Scale as Gear Progresses and just wont double dip on PvP Power

And if u think ur Heals are Weak then get a Healer

[aeser]

the 5 stack taste for blood/heroic strike thing is messed up but don't fool yourself, this happens almost never. just because you saw a video of a dude getting 1 shot for like 325k doesn't mean this is a regular occurance and warriors are running around 1 shotting everyone. i think the most i ever got vs. another player was 3 stacks.

[Verain]

Okay don't have time to read all these posts. Sorry but will get round to it. Though just had a thought and will chuck this out there.

Say hybrids healing doesn't scale off pvp power anymore, what does it scale off exactly? Damage will increase, and health points will increase. But healing doesn't increase?

No, it would increase. Much like %based health restores like the great second wind and the terrible recuperate, it would still scale with gear. But it would scale slower, just like the percentage heals.


I think it should be addressed with a percentage nerf in the same way healing is handled with a percentage nerf, but it could actually be the pvp power breaking this.

In the past, everyone got their damage and heals from a main stat- spellpower, agi, Int, whatever. It's been the same in every damned expansion.

Healing done is effectively amplified by resi. If I hit you for 1000 base and you don't take 40 of it (the baseline), you take 600 damage. Healing that is amplified by Int and PvP Power. My initial damage was based off of a mainstat and PvP power. If you get more resil and now ignore 60% of damage, you only take 400 damage, LOWERING the healing needed.

So basically, damage incoming is scaling with two stats (pvp power and a mainstat) and damage being recieved is mitigated by resilience, and healed with pvp power and a mainstat. That's a bit odd, and will continue if this nerf goes live, except in the case of hybrid healers (only scaling with mainstat and resil) and percentage heals (only scaling on stam and resil), who will scale a bit oddly, and in a lesser fashion.