Well, you can't deny that the pressure to do 25m back then was a lot higher than the pressure to do 10m now. What exactly would going back to the old system solve?
---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 04:03 PM ----------
What does this even mean? You make no sense here.
And whatever it does mean, why can't you do the same thing in 25 man?
Nop this is about proving to you that 10 man raiders claiming that being forced to raid 25 in wrath is as valid as 25s claiming now that they are forced to raid 10 now.
You dont kill as much stuff in 25 with people drugging you back, you downsize and get them.
If you dont downsize you dont get them because surprise!?
Boss does NOT die!
Same reason same result only in a different raiding model.
So yep, you 10 man lovers are hypocrits for insisting on both the stories (that you were forced to raid 25 in wrath and now people are not forced to raid 10), and you are using a double standard.
I know for one thing that with tuning to the badge out put and the amount of loot you can actually attain per boss per week, the old system could work wonders for casuals that can't always get a full raid be that 10 or 25.
flexibility, splitting tiers and having separate set palette swaps gave the same impression hard mode does now, without ofc it being excruciatingly hard, you simply stood out as a 25 man raider, I feel that would give at least some of the drive to actually do them again, as it was before ppl wanted the palette swaps and did the content for it.
the model worked, ppl were doing the content so (en mass i might add), there is little to argue there.
lets face it there are always going to be ppl that miss out on stuff in the game, so, no matter how accessible you make everything it will not give everyone the chance.
Last edited by Heathy; 2012-11-21 at 04:12 PM.
i love when wow players talk about being forced to do stuff. some even cry they "have to do" children's week. the reason for what you described is that 25m was, is and will be needing more effort than 10m. so, in a way, it's harder. most people simply chose the way of the least resistance, hence they end up in 10m. it has nothing to do with what they like more, it's all about efficiency and having an easy life. so you basically twisted the "real" reason 180° around so it would fit your way. problem is that you're not right.
it was completely fine that 25m raiders got better loot to compensate for the extra effort they do/did. surely every single 10m raider will tell otherwise, but that just validates my point.
---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 05:12 PM ----------
this is not cata anymore. you should check the facts first. you are wrong. and even if you were right, 25m still should get 1/2 tier better loot.
Last edited by brirrspliff; 2012-11-21 at 04:15 PM.
That's what I think too. Scaling raids is the best solution, but a lot of thought would have to go into planning that kind of model and making sure it wasn't exploitable.
Amount of loot drops, do bosses just have more damage and more health or are there different mechanics based on the amount of people in the raid, how many tanks and healers would be needed for X number of people, etc., etc.
Scaling's the best solution for guilds in general, especially from an officer/leadership standpoint, but also the most difficult one to implement and make it work out right.
I wouldn't be surprised to see it eventually happen. But there would be a lot of kinks to work out. A lot.
Because people want access to the best loot, even smaller guilds that might struggle to field a 10m.
And let us not also forget that the larger 25m raiding guild in Wrath could go do their normal raid, then also do the 10m to fill in slots (albeit a lesser iLvL, but an upgrade is an upgrade, especially when trying to get tier 2/4pc bonuses), essentially letting them gear up even quicker.
they can fix that with systems they already have in place now, locking loots per boss, its not a big change but it would stem that over farming mentality in wrath..
again in wrath the 10 man tier was balanced around current and following tier the same way the 25 man tier was balanced around the difficulty of their tier and following. it felt more challenging with slightly inflated numbers in the 25s it reflected a more dominance in size and number.
but you can't argue, when you were able to do both, ppl did both, because yes they wanted the loot and they wanted the set bonuses.. this is the whole idea though isn't it, getting ppl to want to do the 25s more.
when it comes down to a choice, the 10 man is much easier to simply put up with, why because it is evidently less hassle to do them why waste time and effort hoping all 25 ppl show up when you can keep an easy core 10 man and boot anyone that starts missing raids and carry on with barely any downtime. ppl saying its only officers and class leaders or whatever that shoulder the 25man drama, when in fact everyone has to put up with no shows.
Last edited by Heathy; 2012-11-21 at 04:26 PM.
I was enjoying myself immensely when i had the time to raid both.
I don't know what you are talking about here :P
Back then there was a good mix available to you. Raid 10 with closest friends for the kicks and 25s for the epic feeling.
So much hatred my god.
And blizzard listened to you and brought cataclysm :S
In Vanila, if you were to mention to ANYBODY that there would be one day, that 10 man would be considered a raid, and not only that, but that they would award the same gear, with the larger raid, they would take you for crazy :P
Still here we are now :P
10 man IS a raid and you get the same gear, the same achievements and even the realm firsts if you score a kill before a group that is 2,5 times bigger does it :P
Writing about it, i realize how crazy it is. Still blizzard went through with it!
God knows what comes next :P
Each person needs to know their job in a 25m just like a 10m, or else you risk wiping.
The extra "effort" in 25m is that it is harder to field 25 non-window licking mouth breathers than 10 for a 10m, and that extra burden is on the raid leaders/officers, not the rank and file that just log in to raid.
That does not justify higher level rewards, but I agree something to make the logistics of setting up 25m easier and less of a burden should be done. The question is what that should be that isn't just bribing the rank and file with bigger shinies.
Because if you have to bribe people to do something they normally would not prefer, then it is not as fun as it is being made out to be
Last edited by Deathgoose; 2012-11-21 at 04:27 PM.
Properly rewarded only if you are an officer. A regular raider just logs on time and preped for raid regardless of it being 10man or 25man.
So to "properly reward" for effort, maybe Blizzard should implement a system where officers in a guild get extra loot while everything else is the same?
their moving their table over their
they're moving they're table over they're
there moving there table over there
your still in a position where your hoping 24 other ppl log in as opposed to only hoping 9 do.
i'm willing to bet that the amount of 25mans that get called off is way beyond that for 10mans.
I know during my raiding career there were lots of called raids, and it fucks moral big time.
one of the bonuses to the system in place at the moment is that if you do get this happen you at no loss to your actual progression, it still feels sort of fixed, your progressing 25s but your gearing through 10s.. its oddly out of place. it feels inconsistent with the idea of bigger raids.
Last edited by Heathy; 2012-11-21 at 04:35 PM.
There is not a better way for Blizzard to break people teams even more, than to single out a few and say "you diserve more reward".
With your logic 10 man raiders we ended up with LFR.
If we keep following your logic (so full of individualism) we will end up ONLY with LFR.