How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[Akraen]

And here you assume the 25 man guild has equal progress. Which it most likely won't. This is because in most situations, the raid leader could take the 10 best players and progress MORE on 10 man then they can in 25. Just as written in the blue post.

how about everything just scales to the # of people you have in the group itself? Then it is truly bring the player.

[Deleted]

So find more raiders as good as your 10 best. You don't see 10 mans complaining that not everyone is as good as their top 4 players, or something.

No YOU find 5 more as your 5 best if 5 ppl is introduced as a raid next tier and you see your precious 10 man dying :P

[Maelstrom51]

Meh you have to remember that with the extra tier share, ppl that were doing 10man, felt the NEED to get the 25man gear when in fact their tier was balanced around their content, the same way the 25man gear was balanced around their content, it was simply the drive to have the best, and thats what it is, why is it considered a bad thing to have 10 man raiders wanting to branch out into 25 mans.

it still comes down to, no 10 man guild is forced to move onto 25mans, they just felt inclined to do so.

Well, you can't deny that the pressure to do 25m back then was a lot higher than the pressure to do 10m now. What exactly would going back to the old system solve?

---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 04:03 PM ----------

No YOU find 5 more as your 5 best if 5 ppl is introduced as a raid next tier and you see your precious 10 man dying :P

What does this even mean? You make no sense here.

And whatever it does mean, why can't you do the same thing in 25 man?

[Deathgoose]

No YOU find 5 more as your 5 best if 5 ppl is introduced as a raid next tier and you see your precious 10 man dying :P

I know points often have to be made by taking things to an extreme, but, all I can say is, raid level epics for doing essentially challenge modes? Do you think people wouldn't happily do that? :P

[Deleted]

Wait, so is this about playing the size you prefer, or is about the speed and efficiency that you down things (i.e. the progression race)?

In Wrath= 10m raider were forced to raid 25m to get the highest iLvL loot.
Cata/MoP= 25m are not forced to raid 10m to get the highest iLvL loot.

Not a double standard.

Nop this is about proving to you that 10 man raiders claiming that being forced to raid 25 in wrath is as valid as 25s claiming now that they are forced to raid 10 now.

You dont kill as much stuff in 25 with people drugging you back, you downsize and get them.
If you dont downsize you dont get them because surprise!?
Boss does NOT die!

Same reason same result only in a different raiding model.
So yep, you 10 man lovers are hypocrits for insisting on both the stories (that you were forced to raid 25 in wrath and now people are not forced to raid 10), and you are using a double standard.

[Heathy]

I know for one thing that with tuning to the badge out put and the amount of loot you can actually attain per boss per week, the old system could work wonders for casuals that can't always get a full raid be that 10 or 25.

flexibility, splitting tiers and having separate set palette swaps gave the same impression hard mode does now, without ofc it being excruciatingly hard, you simply stood out as a 25 man raider, I feel that would give at least some of the drive to actually do them again, as it was before ppl wanted the palette swaps and did the content for it.

the model worked, ppl were doing the content so (en mass i might add), there is little to argue there.

lets face it there are always going to be ppl that miss out on stuff in the game, so, no matter how accessible you make everything it will not give everyone the chance.

[Deleted]

I know points often have to be made by taking things to an extreme, but, all I can say is, raid level epics for doing essentially challenge modes? Do you think people wouldn't happily do that? :P

Raid level epics for oversized dungeons? (10 man was an oversized dungeon in Vanila till blizzard decided to introduce it as raid in TBC)

Same logic...and according to it you(we, i raid 10 man) should get transmogrification gear now :P

[brirrspliff]

Because people want access to the highest level of loot. Don't even pretend you can't understand that. You had do to 25m in Wrath to get the best loot. You didn't have to in Cata, and the 25m had a dramatic drop off. No one forced those 25m raiding guilds to go to 10m. There was no incentive to do 10m, there was just a lack of incentive to do 25m. That pretty much says everything that needs saying.

i love when wow players talk about being forced to do stuff. some even cry they "have to do" children's week. the reason for what you described is that 25m was, is and will be needing more effort than 10m. so, in a way, it's harder. most people simply chose the way of the least resistance, hence they end up in 10m. it has nothing to do with what they like more, it's all about efficiency and having an easy life. so you basically twisted the "real" reason 180° around so it would fit your way. problem is that you're not right.

it was completely fine that 25m raiders got better loot to compensate for the extra effort they do/did. surely every single 10m raider will tell otherwise, but that just validates my point.

---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 05:12 PM ----------

They allready get rewarded with 2.5x faster legendary creation. they dont need anymore.

this is not cata anymore. you should check the facts first. you are wrong. and even if you were right, 25m still should get 1/2 tier better loot.

[Dvaldin]

This would probably be the best solution, but also the one hardest to implement. Even though, if it would scale from anywhere between 10 and 25 or even 40, it would be great. The thing is, how would it affect raiding then? Would everything be balanced for 10 man groups and then tuned up? For 20 man and tuned up and down? For 10 man, 20 man and tuned up or down do something else? How would the loot work? 20% additional chance for an item for every member above 10? So with 12 member, you have 40% chance for an additional loot drop, with 14 you would have 80%? Something completely different?

Scaling raids would definitly solve something, but it would probably create enough more problems. Just as an example, a guild who raids with 15 people vs. one who raids with 14 people. The first guild would always receive one additonal item, the second one has 80%. Now with bad RNG, this extra drop may not drop for several weeks. People would flame again probably.

Still I think, this would be the ultimate solution. If we would go back to a single raidsize 25 man would either have to drop member or 10 man would have to get new ones - or both happens and no one would be that happy.

That's what I think too. Scaling raids is the best solution, but a lot of thought would have to go into planning that kind of model and making sure it wasn't exploitable.

Amount of loot drops, do bosses just have more damage and more health or are there different mechanics based on the amount of people in the raid, how many tanks and healers would be needed for X number of people, etc., etc.

Scaling's the best solution for guilds in general, especially from an officer/leadership standpoint, but also the most difficult one to implement and make it work out right.

I wouldn't be surprised to see it eventually happen. But there would be a lot of kinks to work out. A lot.

[Deathgoose]

Meh you have to remember that with the extra tier share, ppl that were doing 10man, felt the NEED to get the 25man gear when in fact their tier was balanced around their content, the same way the 25man gear was balanced around their content, it was simply the drive to have the best, and thats what it is, why is it considered a bad thing to have 10 man raiders wanting to branch out into 25 mans.

it still comes down to, no 10 man guild is forced to move onto 25mans, they just felt inclined to do so.

Because people want access to the best loot, even smaller guilds that might struggle to field a 10m.

And let us not also forget that the larger 25m raiding guild in Wrath could go do their normal raid, then also do the 10m to fill in slots (albeit a lesser iLvL, but an upgrade is an upgrade, especially when trying to get tier 2/4pc bonuses), essentially letting them gear up even quicker.

[Heathy]

they can fix that with systems they already have in place now, locking loots per boss, its not a big change but it would stem that over farming mentality in wrath..

again in wrath the 10 man tier was balanced around current and following tier the same way the 25 man tier was balanced around the difficulty of their tier and following. it felt more challenging with slightly inflated numbers in the 25s it reflected a more dominance in size and number.

but you can't argue, when you were able to do both, ppl did both, because yes they wanted the loot and they wanted the set bonuses.. this is the whole idea though isn't it, getting ppl to want to do the 25s more.

when it comes down to a choice, the 10 man is much easier to simply put up with, why because it is evidently less hassle to do them why waste time and effort hoping all 25 ppl show up when you can keep an easy core 10 man and boot anyone that starts missing raids and carry on with barely any downtime. ppl saying its only officers and class leaders or whatever that shoulder the 25man drama, when in fact everyone has to put up with no shows.

[Deleted]

I was enjoying myself immensely when i had the time to raid both.
I don't know what you are talking about here :P

Back then there was a good mix available to you. Raid 10 with closest friends for the kicks and 25s for the epic feeling.

So much hatred my god.
And blizzard listened to you and brought cataclysm :S

[Deathgoose]

Raid level epics for oversized dungeons? (10 man was an oversized dungeon in Vanila till blizzard decided to introduce it as raid in TBC)

Same logic...and according to it you(we, i raid 10 man) should get transmogrification gear now :P

Hey, that entire hypothetical scenario was all you, so don't go saying according to me!

I was just pointing out you were trying to make a point by taking it to an extreme, and I felt you may be surprised by how many players would embrace 5-man raids

[Deleted]

Hey, that entire hypothetical scenario was all you, so don't go saying according to me!

I was just pointing out you were trying to make a point by taking it to an extreme, and I felt you may be surprised by how many players would embrace 5-man raids

In Vanila, if you were to mention to ANYBODY that there would be one day, that 10 man would be considered a raid, and not only that, but that they would award the same gear, with the larger raid, they would take you for crazy :P
Still here we are now :P
10 man IS a raid and you get the same gear, the same achievements and even the realm firsts if you score a kill before a group that is 2,5 times bigger does it :P

Writing about it, i realize how crazy it is. Still blizzard went through with it!
God knows what comes next :P

[Deathgoose]

i love when wow players talk about being forced to do stuff. some even cry they "have to do" children's week. the reason for what you described is that 25m was, is and will be needing more effort than 10m. so, in a way, it's harder. most people simply chose the way of the least resistance, hence they end up in 10m. it has nothing to do with what they like more, it's all about efficiency and having an easy life. so you basically twisted the "real" reason 180° around so it would fit your way. problem is that you're not right.

it was completely fine that 25m raiders got better loot to compensate for the extra effort they do/did. surely every single 10m raider will tell otherwise, but that just validates my point.

---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 05:12 PM ----------


this is not cata anymore. you should check the facts first. you are wrong. and even if you were right, 25m still should get 1/2 tier better loot.

Each person needs to know their job in a 25m just like a 10m, or else you risk wiping.

The extra "effort" in 25m is that it is harder to field 25 non-window licking mouth breathers than 10 for a 10m, and that extra burden is on the raid leaders/officers, not the rank and file that just log in to raid.

That does not justify higher level rewards, but I agree something to make the logistics of setting up 25m easier and less of a burden should be done. The question is what that should be that isn't just bribing the rank and file with bigger shinies.

Because if you have to bribe people to do something they normally would not prefer, then it is not as fun as it is being made out to be

[Deleted]

Because if you have to bribe people to something they normally would not prefer, then it is not as fun as it is being made out to be

I would prefer it just fine.
And i wouldn't feel bribbed at all.
Just properly rewarded.

[wow2011]

I would prefer it just fine.
And i wouldn't feel bribbed at all.
Just properly rewarded.

Properly rewarded only if you are an officer. A regular raider just logs on time and preped for raid regardless of it being 10man or 25man.

So to "properly reward" for effort, maybe Blizzard should implement a system where officers in a guild get extra loot while everything else is the same?

[Deleted]

Hey, that entire hypothetical scenario was all you, so don't go saying according to me!

I was just pointing out you were trying to make a point by taking it to an extreme, and I felt you may be surprised by how many players would embrace 5-man raids

You are quite right - the vast majority of players raid for loot and fun. Getting loot being a big part of the fun.

[Heathy]

your still in a position where your hoping 24 other ppl log in as opposed to only hoping 9 do.

i'm willing to bet that the amount of 25mans that get called off is way beyond that for 10mans.

I know during my raiding career there were lots of called raids, and it fucks moral big time.

one of the bonuses to the system in place at the moment is that if you do get this happen you at no loss to your actual progression, it still feels sort of fixed, your progressing 25s but your gearing through 10s.. its oddly out of place. it feels inconsistent with the idea of bigger raids.

[Deleted]

Properly rewarded only if you are an officer. A regular raider just logs on time and preped for raid regardless of it being 10man or 25man.

So to "properly reward" for effort, maybe Blizzard should implement a system where officers in a guild get extra loot while everything else is the same?

There is not a better way for Blizzard to break people teams even more, than to single out a few and say "you diserve more reward".
With your logic 10 man raiders we ended up with LFR.
If we keep following your logic (so full of individualism) we will end up ONLY with LFR.