How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[GreatSageCorban]

Basically what I hear is People that love 10m don't want 25m to have something better than what 10m provides. Otherwise they will be 'forced' into doing 25m.

[Tomservo]

just because you raid with more people does not mean you're special and deserve anything extra.

[Deathgoose]

For everyone in this thread pro-25, I ask a few things:

Are you currently raiding 25m?

If yes, why are you in this thread advocating for more rewards than you already have? You are already raiding you preferred format!
If no, why not?

Are you some rank and file in a guild struggling to field a 25m and are just expecting someone else to magically make it happen so you can log in and call yourself a 25m raider and feel all epic, but for now, you have to condescend to doing 10m?

If yes, why are you in this thread advocating for more rewards for putting forth no more effort than you are putting into it already?
If no, why not?

Are you the guild/raid leader/officer that is struggling with the logistics, recruitment, babysitting, and every other hassle that goes into herding 25 cats and special snowflakes as opposed to only 10?

If yes, than I do empathize with you, but other than just bribing people with things exclusive to 25m, what else can be done to make your job easier? Cross Realm Raids as a manner to fill the roster, especially on lower pop servers is one of the better options I've seen on this thread, but what else can really be done?

---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 10:44 AM ----------

Basically what I hear is People that love 10m don't want 25m to have something better than what 10m provides. Otherwise they will be 'forced' into doing 25m.

Well, if we're going with sweeping generalizations and platitudes:

Basically what I hear is People that love 25m want something better than what 10m provides because the numbers indicate that they are in the minority so they need a way to force more people into doing 25m.

[Heathy]

what happens if your not raiding 25s or at all but would like to come back and put in the effort if it had rewards that reflected such.

also if your in a 10man guild that is happy and having fun why do you care what happens incentive wise to 25s when it has absolutely zero impact on your 10 man raiding. because you suddenly feel less superior now that there is an ilvl you would need to pug or recruit more ppl to achieve, why care though, your having fun in your 10 mans its not affecting your progression .. if 10 mans suddenly started rewarding 5 man ilvl what would happen, everyone would go 25s, plain and simple.

force is a strong word aswell, noone is forcing anyone just like noone is forced to do hard mode they decide to try it or not.

the only difference there is the time and effort is perhaps worth the better ilvl because for some you could be wasting potentially months on one boss trying to get it right.

for my argument the only way i'd see 25s working with their extra ilvl is if the tier was balanced around it just like before, so its not just padding, its designed that way on purpose. I'm not suggesting the re-addition of splitting up a tier and keeping the scaling difficulty the same, but amping it up in line with the reward. just as it was previously. I'm quite sure noone here is advocating the addition of better loot and keeping the 25 man at the same difficulty scale as it is now with 10 mans but actually increasing the challenge as such to make up for that, so ppl won't say things like 'omg the 25s are facepalm half the raid is afk anyway'.

[Celarent]

So other than somehow making setting up 25m easier (i.e. make the logistics less of a chore, like Cross-Realm-Raiding and such), there is no reason to reward people for doing 25m. If they are only doing 25m for the extra reward, then they inherently don't want to do 25m more than 10m, and they just want the higher ilvl/mount/etc.

Your narrow definition of logistics is a valid one, but not the only one. Clearly, 25-man offers an experience and challenge for both the game and guild metagame that 10-man doesn't.

What's happened is that elevating 10-man rewards allowed players to make a simple cost/benefit calculation, not that players don't like 25-man. It's not that 25-man needs an incentive — an issue Blizzard itself has confused — it's that 10-man's rewards satisfy players' needs while requiring less effort.

Perspective matters, because the subtle distinction means everything about preserving the larger venue.

[FoodProduct]

There are a lot of factors going into the balance that people seem to be ignoring.

Everyone loves to gloss over the fact that 10-mans are tuned easier (numerically) than 25-mans simply because it's more difficult for random group X to get an ideal raid comp (buffs/debuffs, etc.), so they have to take that into account. On the other hand, 25mans have a bit more flexibility in being able to "class stack" for certain encounters without losing aforementioned raid comp viability in order to gain utility (assuming the guild has the resources, which generally is not true but applies to high-end raiding).

AFAIK, tanks get hit roughly twice as hard in 25man as in 10man, yet there are often more than twice as many healers, which is "made up for" by higher relative raid damage.

As for loot distribution, I could be wrong about this, but 1 token drops for 10man, 2 for 25man on applicable bosses, right? This means that it's 1 token per 10 people in 10man and 1 token per 12.5 people in 25man.

It's a difficult balancing situation, which is why Blizzard's been hesitant to make big changes. I wish more people took time to fully understand issues before they started complaining and proposing 2-second solutions.

[Deathgoose]

what happens if your not raiding 25s or at all but would like to come back and put in the effort if it had rewards that reflected such.

also if your in a 10man guild that is happy and having fun why do you care what happens incentive wise to 25s when it has absolutely zero impact on your 10 man raiding. because you suddenly feel less superior now that there is an ilvl you would need to pug or recruit more ppl to achieve, why care though, your having fun in your 10 mans its not affecting your progression .. if 10 mans suddenly started rewarding 5 man ilvl what would happen, everyone would go 25s, plain and simple.

force is a strong word aswell, noone is forcing anyone just like noone is forced to do hard mode they decide to try it or not.

the only difference there is the time and effort is perhaps worth the better ilvl because for some you could be wasting potentially months on one boss trying to get it right.

for my argument the only way i'd see 25s working with their extra ilvl is if the tier was balanced around it just like before, so its not just padding, its designed that way on purpose. I'm not suggesting the re-addition of splitting up a tier and keeping the scaling difficulty the same, but amping it up in line with the reward. just as it was previously. I'm quite sure noone here is advocating the addition of better loot and keeping the 25 man at the same difficulty scale as it is now with 10 mans but actually increasing the challenge as such to make up for that, so ppl won't say things like 'omg the 25s are facepalm half the raid is afk anyway'.

So... you're just saying go back to Wrath's model?

I'm not trying to be flippant, but that's basically what I got out of that.

---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 11:19 AM ----------

Your narrow definition of logistics is a valid one, but not the only one. Clearly, 25-man offers an experience and challenge for both the game and guild metagame that 10-man doesn't.

What's happened is that elevating 10-man rewards allowed players to make a simple cost/benefit calculation, not that players don't like 25-man. It's not that 25-man needs an incentive — an issue Blizzard itself has confused — it's that 10-man's rewards satisfy players' needs while requiring less effort.

Perspective matters, because the subtle distinction means everything about preserving the larger venue.

Almost no one would legitimately argue that SETTING UP a 25m is a much bigger chore than a 10m, but that burden is on the leaders that organize it.

Once you zone into the instance, many take issue with the suggestion that 25m take any more or less effort on the part of the individual rank and file raider than 10m.

So how do you reward the ones that had the increased effort (i.e. the leaders) without just giving a higher iLvL to others that showed up and did nothing more than they would have done if they showed up for a 10m? (i.e. stayed out of fire, switched targets properly, moved in/out of the raid as necessary, etc)

[Deleted]

For everyone in this thread pro-25, I ask a few things:

Are you currently raiding 25m?

If yes, why are you in this thread advocating for more rewards than you already have? You are already raiding you preferred format!
If no, why not?

Are you some rank and file in a guild struggling to field a 25m and are just expecting someone else to magically make it happen so you can log in and call yourself a 25m raider and feel all epic, but for now, you have to condescend to doing 10m?

If yes, why are you in this thread advocating for more rewards for putting forth no more effort than you are putting into it already?
If no, why not?

Are you the guild/raid leader/officer that is struggling with the logistics, recruitment, babysitting, and every other hassle that goes into herding 25 cats and special snowflakes as opposed to only 10?

If yes, than I do empathize with you, but other than just bribing people with things exclusive to 25m, what else can be done to make your job easier? Cross Realm Raids as a manner to fill the roster, especially on lower pop servers is one of the better options I've seen on this thread, but what else can really be done?

---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 10:44 AM ----------



Well, if we're going with sweeping generalizations and platitudes:

Basically what I hear is People that love 25m want something better than what 10m provides because the numbers indicate that they are in the minority so they need a way to force more people into doing 25m.

I already said what they can do to make 25 man easier on the logistics - make them comically easy.

[Heathy]

So... you're just saying go back to Wrath's model?

I'm not trying to be flippant, but that's basically what I got out of that.[COLOR="red"]

yeah why not it worked, the downside was inflation of the badges mostly ppl farmed so much they ended up with more than they could spend but not only did you have ppl doing the content ppl were happy, it only became a problem when ppl had to choose to do either 10 or 25s and felt left out if they decided to stick with the smaller group. where as if you happy with that size and happyness is all that drives a raid, ask yourself why do you care if it is not affecting you.

its simply inclination ppl see something juicy and they want it, it creates demand.. after all the goal of this is to do just that.

[Sansnom]

your still in a position where your hoping 24 other ppl log in as opposed to only hoping 9 do.

i'm willing to bet that the amount of 25mans that get called off is way beyond that for 10mans.

Really? And there I was thinking real proper raiding is 25m and so I would the people who raid 25m are more dedicated and less likely to not turn up. While the 10m are for the more "casual" player crowd.

[Deathgoose]

I already said what they can do to make 25 man easier on the logistics - make them comically easy.

We call that LFR.

ZING!

More seriously, I do empathize with people that may legitimately enjoy 25m over 10m, and how it is harder to organize in order for them to run their preferred format.

However, I disagree higher iLvL is the way to go, as you are just making people put up with shit they don't like instead of fixing the root problem of just removing the shit they don't like.

[Nuckels]

Just better feasts and cauldrons back alone would be a nice start.

[Heathy]

Really? And there I was thinking real proper raiding is 25m and so I would the people who raid 25m are more dedicated and less likely to not turn up. While the 10m are for the more "casual" player crowd.

well thats subjective, it really depends on the mindset of your raiding group, if you stick to doing 25s you have 25 ppl saving their lockout to do that and noone knows what can happen during a week your relying on more ppl to be punctual. I think i was simply stating the obvious in that it is more of a demand to get ppl to rely on a significantly larger roster of ppl. when they could just forego that potentially raidless scenario and simply do 10 mans.

I don't really want to keep typing out the same argument to everyone that quotes me, I see no reason why 10s should feel they deserve the same reward for their effort as 25s its simply not as balanced as ppl think it is just because they are happy with 10s and feel that 25s should suck it up or simply start doing 10s.

[Deleted]

So how do you reward the ones that had the increased effort (i.e. the leaders) without just giving a higher iLvL to others that showed up and did nothing more than they would have done if they showed up for a 10m? (i.e. stayed out of fire, switched targets properly, moved in/out of the raid as necessary, etc)

I think an officer said it best earlier in the thread. If recruitment could just be a bit easier he would feel very rewarded. But well at the moment every typical-low-grunt raider will compare the two sizes and what they mean to him and his chances for raiding and loot and just choose 10 man.

[Deleted]

So... you're just saying go back to Wrath's model?

I'm not trying to be flippant, but that's basically what I got out of that.

I don't think that going back to wrath is feasible anymore.
I am quite certain though that we shouldnt have moved from Wrath model towards the direction we did.

Almost no one would legitimately argue that SETTING UP a 25m is a much bigger chore than a 10m, but that burden is on the leaders that organize it.

Once you zone into the instance, many take issue with the suggestion that 25m take any more or less effort on the part of the individual rank and file raider than 10m.

So how do you reward the ones that had the increased effort (i.e. the leaders) without just giving a higher iLvL to others that showed up and did nothing more than they would have done if they showed up for a 10m? (i.e. stayed out of fire, switched targets properly, moved in/out of the raid as necessary, etc)

Cost/benefit calculation for the individual is quite simple.
Ask yourself a question.
How good am i in my 25?
Answer: top 5 to top 10.
Conclusion: If my team is stack at 3/6, i can definately claim smt better for myself if we downsize to 10.

Action: Ask the raid leader to downsize. Answer yes--->profit since the individual is in the selected few.
Answer no---->start looking for a 10 man at the level individual thinks he can perform.

Apply to each individual in the 25--->result: a) 25 downsizes willingly excluding 15 people out of raiding.
b)25 is forced to downsize if a few of the best members do the same cost/benefit calculation and discover that they could get more, and that results into them leaving the guild (if leader refuses to downsize).

Result: Some people are happy from better rewards many people unhappy for 2 reasons: a) They re forced to raid the size they DONT prefer.
b) They cant even raid the size they DONT like! They cant fit in the new 10 (no slots). They are the "bads"! And even if they try to find another team nobody wants them since they can find 10 people with better skill in the market.

So, better reward for the individual, shrinked and divided raiding community---->LFR for the bads that can raid no more, but with a twist, you (happy 10 man raider that can now claim more progress and more loot) will feel FORCED to run it together with them, and if you re unlucky you will wipe your brains out!

LFR: the revenge of the "Bads"

[Deathgoose]

yeah why not it worked, the downside was inflation of the badges mostly ppl farmed so much they ended up with more than they could spend but not only did you have ppl doing the content ppl were happy, it only became a problem when ppl had to choose to do either 10 or 25s and felt left out if they decided to stick with the smaller group. where as if you happy with that size and happyness is all that drives a raid, ask yourself why do you care if it is not affecting you.

its simply inclination ppl see something juicy and they want it, it creates demand.. after all the goal of this is to do just that.

While we will have to agree to disagree that doing so wouldn't just cause 10m raiders that care about getting BiS to feel forced to go back to 25m raiding, I can at least respect that if 25m was deliberately tuned to be the more difficult content and not just tweaked to account for 2.5 times the people and subsequently rewarded a higher iLvL.

[Oxyra]

In Vanila, if you were to mention to ANYBODY that there would be one day, that 10 man would be considered a raid, and not only that, but that they would award the same gear, with the larger raid, they would take you for crazy :P
Still here we are now :P
10 man IS a raid and you get the same gear, the same achievements and even the realm firsts if you score a kill before a group that is 2,5 times bigger does it :P

Writing about it, i realize how crazy it is. Still blizzard went through with it!
God knows what comes next :P

On top of 10mans nowadays dropping as much loot as 40mans in Vanilla.
4x as much loot.

[Deathgoose]

Just better feasts and cauldrons back alone would be a nice start.

Yeah, I didn't understand why they removed that guild perk.

the HGWT, while inconvenient and annoying after having it for 2 years (Just like losing Shat/Dalaran portals to all capitals after 4 years in Cata... only to get them back again in Mists... huh?) that just meant you needed 2 people to hit the summon stone, not just 1 guy to get there.

But the removal of the guild cauldron perk made me scratch my head.

[Vulgrym]

Basically what I hear is People that love 25m want something better than what 10m provides because the numbers indicate that they are in the minority so they need a way to force more people into doing 25m.

Well, what you should be hearing is what Blizzard themselves have stated, which is 25m rewards should reflect the increased complexity of organizing for and defeating content in that format. Raiding is a team game, the larger the effort the harder it is. This is particularly true for the more difficult progression fights in the game, where there is no slack and you need every one of those extra 15 members to hit your various throughput and execution checks.

[Heathy]

While we will have to agree to disagree that doing so wouldn't just cause 10m raiders that care about getting BiS to feel forced to go back to 25m raiding, I can at least respect that if 25m was deliberately tuned to be the more difficult content and not just tweaked to account for 2.5 times the people and subsequently rewarded a higher iLvL.

yes well that is the only way it could even feasibly work, the problem at the moment is that 25s are just tuned 10mans, it is very close to what it would've been, i do not doubt blizzards competence with numbers, although if they were to re introduce a split tier model like wrath although to be fair they have methods of stopping inflation these days, it would fix the problem, at least 10s could be happy that their tier will get them through the content and they should not feel inclined to move onto 25s to complete their tier but to actually complete the 25man tier hopefully this makes sense.

basically they should really treat 10s and 25s as separate entities not scaled versions of the same entity.

after all ppl can simply complain that they are missing content but at the end of the day if your not raiding 25 mans your not seeing that content anyway. you might experience the 10 man version of that content but your still not actually doing the 25man variant so in essence you are missing out on that to begin with. if adding the split ilvl model creates that demand and ppl start doing them again, hey presto problem solved.

does it really matter if you don't get to see everything or you don't complete a tier before they release the next one, not really that hardly factors into it, but it seems to be part of the reason why everyone feels they should be treated equally even if there is more head ache involved in 25s.

i do understand the idea behind keeping things equal, but when your talking about 2 raid sizes that differ by a considerable number there comes a point when you cannot keep things equal and expect everyone to simply suck it up or move on, eventually ppl will ask themselves, why are we putting ourselves through this much hassle when we could be getting the same results from a much smaller group. liking something barley comes into it when you have the choice of definitely being able to make raids to hopefully being able to make raids.