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  1. #981
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    why would you need that gear if the 10 man is balanced around the tier that drops within it ?
    Same goes the other way.

    If 25 man is the superior format, let it be doable in quest greens.

  2. #982
    well you would need to be on the ball to do even an entry level raid in quest greens, if it even lets you in with that ilvl, the idea it to scale the 25man around its own ilvl so the challenge does equal the incentive not only by scaling with the 10man but by its own increase maybe not the entry but perhaps the following so ofc the entry requirement to both 10 and 25 stays the same.

  3. #983
    I dont understand why 25 raid as a whole should be awarded for "logistical effort" when in reality only few (raid leaders, officers) actually put the effort in (leading recruiting, managing roles/classes). Majority of raiders in 25 dont put in any effort when in comes to logistics or managing the guild/raid. Most just show up for the raids.

  4. #984
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    well you would need to be on the ball to do even an entry level raid in quest greens, if it even lets you in with that ilvl, the idea it to scale the 25man around its own ilvl so the challenge does equal the incentive not only by scaling with the 10man but by its own increase maybe not the entry but perhaps the following so ofc the entry requirement to both 10 and 25 stays the same.
    Yes, exactly.

    Scale 25 mans so they are very, very easy to complete in quest greens but still drop 10 man level loot and there will be enormous amounts of 25 man raids.

    For some reason every argument assumes that 25 mans have the higher ilvl loot to make up for the difficulty, but it's a lot easier (and won't upset the current 10 man raiders) to just make 25 man raids a doddle.

  5. #985
    Quote Originally Posted by Confucius View Post
    I dont understand why 25 raid as a whole should be awarded for "logistical effort" when in reality only few (raid leaders, officers) actually put the effort in (leading recruiting, managing roles/classes). Majority of raiders in 25 dont put in any effort when in comes to logistics or managing the guild/raid. Most just show up for the raids.
    To assist the Leaders/Officers in recruitment. Adding incentives for the whole raid will attract some more players to the format. 25 man guilds are dying due to the lack of ability to replace players who leave or quit the game.

  6. #986
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by scadouche View Post
    To assist the Leaders/Officers in recruitment. Adding incentives for the whole raid will attract some more players to the format. 25 man guilds are dying due to the lack of ability to replace players who leave or quit the game.
    Is it just long standing habit that assumes they need higher ilvl or something?

    25 mans had better loot back in wrath and the idea has stuck somewhere. But LFR shows that making raids easier makes them more popular, and also that 25 mans can be designed to remove all logistic troubles. Do that, then.

  7. #987
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Yes, exactly.

    Scale 25 mans so they are very, very easy to complete in quest greens but still drop 10 man level loot and there will be enormous amounts of 25 man raids.

    For some reason every argument assumes that 25 mans have the higher ilvl loot to make up for the difficulty, but it's a lot easier (and won't upset the current 10 man raiders) to just make 25 man raids a doddle.
    well your missing the point of scaling, in that, the numbers are essentially bigger, which simply means that you either need to avoid more or heal more, that sort of translates into a difficulty increase as opposed to nerfing 25s into oblivion in the sake of getting ppl to run them, you seem to believe that ppl want them mega easy?

  8. #988
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    well your missing the point of scaling, in that, the numbers are essentially bigger, which simply means that you either need to avoid more or heal more, that sort of translates into a difficulty increase as opposed to nerfing 25s into oblivion in the sake of getting ppl to run them, you seem to believe that ppl want them mega easy?
    LFR proves that they do.

    If you want popularity, then ease of completion is the way to go. Trying to make a playerbase do huge raids it hasn't got any interest in by using carrots is kinda lame. It never wokred before, it won't work now.

  9. #989
    if you give a dog a bone its going to eat it, saying the fact that ppl do the raid finder has about as much to do with satisfaction as it does with the simple ability to perform the task without getting saved to your guild raid. among other reasons i really cba to type.

    if you think it didn't work before your not taking into account the simple undeniable fact that the game was build around a separate raid tier for the sizes since the beginning and only got bigger during that time.
    Last edited by Heathy; 2012-11-22 at 01:00 AM.

  10. #990
    Quote Originally Posted by scadouche View Post
    Bingo. I would like for some of you to answer this.
    MMO means massively multiplayer online. It doesn't mean "YOU MUST SPEND EVERY SECOND ONLINE DEPENDENT ON AT LEAST 24 OTHER PEOPLE TO DO ANYTHING." It simply means that there is a persistent online world that a huge number of people connect to and participate in, and that provides challenges that a single player cannot overcome on his/her own (though even that last statement is stretching the definition a good bit).

    Different MMOs have presented in different ways. A lot of people look at the increased logistical difficulties of larger raid formats compared to the ease of smaller raids, and cite those as reasons that 25-man needs increased rewards.... but so far, the only two reasons I've seen in favor of defending the larger formats are "It's an MMO, so obviously you need to have huge format raids that are inherently more rewarding than smaller formats" and "I like 25-man raids and don't want them to die". The latter reason is an emotional one, and carries little weight on its own... though enough people across enough servers making similar complaints could make it valid. The former holds no weight at all, because it's an argument without evidence.

    In short, attacking the downsizing of raids by calling this an MMO is like saying the Horde and Alliance have to be at war because it's "world of WARcraft"... a cutsey argument designed to be emotionally appealing to some, but with absolutely no logical or rational validity.

    You're demanding to know the justification for the downsizing of raids.... well, the justification is that a lot of people wanted to raid the smaller format, so 10-man raids were implemented in WotLK to satisfy that. A lot of people who raided 25-man raids were unhappy that they were compelled to do both 10 and 25 man raids to be competitive, and a lot of people who inherently prefer the 10-man format were upset that the gear levels implied they were lesser simply because they prefer the smaller format, regardless of the reasons for their preference. So in Cataclysm and MoP, we have raids that give equal gear in both formats, allowing players to choose whichever format they prefer. You're now countering that this is all inherently bad, because you personally like larger formats more, or because somehow an MMO demands larger formats.


    My answer? Blizzard's already begun looking into CRZ, let them expand it. Let people make cross-realm guilds. One of the biggest problems with a 25-man guild is, quite simply, finding enough people to fill the roster. Expand the potential pool of recruits, so that people who want to raid 25-man can do so easily without having to pay for server transfers. This suggestion has already been made int his thread at least once (I haven't read the whole thread), but it's one I agree with, and it's essentially the same basic solution they came up with for not being able to find people to do low level dungeons with ; LFD automatically matches people, but more importantly it pulls from every realm. The drastically increased pool of players minimizes waiting time.

    That way, if there are still people that want to do 25-man raiding, there will be nothing stopping them. If there aren't, then it really isn't worth saving.

  11. #991
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    if you give a dog a bone its going to eat it, saying the fact that ppl do the raid finder has about as much to do with satisfaction as it does with the simple ability to perform the task without getting saved to your guild raid. among other reasons i really cba to type.
    Right, so by nerfing 25 man normal and HC modes down but leaving the same loot in as 10 mans, you'll incentivise people to do them. And particualrly, to raid lead them which is I think the major issue. Raiders in general don't care, they just want their shinies. Therefore it's the RL who chooses raid size. As 10 is currently easier to organise, they are picking 10. Make 25 easier and therefore organisational difficulties vanish and hey presto! There will be more 25 mans.
    if you think it didn't work before your not taking into account the simple undeniable fact that the game was build around a separate raid tier for the sizes since the beginning and only got bigger during that time.
    Havign 25 mans as the major focus provably didn't work because hardly anyone raided until the end of cataclysm.

    Quite why vanilla and TBC etc where so popular isn't exactly clear, what is clear is that it had fuck all to do with raiding as only small %ages of the playerbase bothered doing them.

  12. #992
    so basically what everyone is saying is that, your putting in some effort and you pay the same subscription so however much effort you put in fuck everyone else i want the best for my effort.. well ok gg. the guy was right though mmo used to mean that you'd put in effort to achieve a better outcome yet it seems to not twig with some ppl.

  13. #993
    Quote Originally Posted by Wycked View Post
    oh and for the love of god stop saying 10's/25's are comparable difficulty. BUT WE ARE ONLY GET 1 BATTLE REZ...BUT..BUT...YOUCANCARRYPEOPLE.....oh wait, you have half the complexity, have significantly lower damage requirements, don't have to manage half the cool down's in rotations, less ads to control, easier enrages, and require all around less skill. 10 mans are what 25 man guilds that can't hack it become, the top guilds aern't raiding 25m because their easier, they raid them because 10 man raiding is a joke.
    Which is contradicted instantly by the facts if your claim was true Paragon would be 1 shooting all hardmodes on 1st pull in 10 man, now this is obviously not happening so make another excuse.

  14. #994
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    so basically what everyone is saying is that, your putting in some effort and you pay the same subscription so however much effort you put in fuck everyone else i want the best for my effort.. well ok gg. the guy was right though mmo used to mean that you'd put in effort to achieve a better outcome yet it seems to not twig with some ppl.
    Well, not really.

    What a few of us are saying is why not design the game based on the players you've got rather than some mythical players* who will put up with a lot of bullshit before things become fun?


    *To be fair these people do exist, they are hardcore raiders. It's just that the sort of person who hardcore raids isn't very representative of the bulk of wows population.

  15. #995
    Quote Originally Posted by Confucius View Post
    I dont understand why 25 raid as a whole should be awarded for "logistical effort" when in reality only few (raid leaders, officers) actually put the effort in (leading recruiting, managing roles/classes). Majority of raiders in 25 dont put in any effort when in comes to logistics or managing the guild/raid. Most just show up for the raids.
    Exactly and they already get a LOT more loot per boss kill 20% more loot to be exact what you want 200% 3000%. Getting 20% more loot from a boss is a huge perk. The problem is greed is good and that some folks want everything without having to work for it.

    The average joe blow raider shows up and benefits from this massive loot perk. And they want more for the logistics to run 25mans, well give guild bank more gold some feasts maybe a flask or two as well. All to cover your extra logistics work i mean. But i know it will be rejected since all you want is a shitload of more epics and preferably epics of 26 ilvls above 10man if you could make it so.

  16. #996
    hard mode is good, it separates the cans and cannots, palette swaps. for most it just requires too much investment for the upgrade, eventually ppl get to do them even if they go back, still if you doing 10's, what does it matter to you what drops in 25s. really, if your happy with the size of raid your doing, does what happens in the other size really matter?

  17. #997
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathy View Post
    hard mode is good, it separates the cans and cannots, palette swaps. for most it just requires too much investment for the upgrade, eventually ppl get to do them even if they go back, still if you doing 10's, what does it matter to you what drops in 25s. really, if your happy with the size of raid your doing, does what happens in the other size really matter?
    Exactly, so 25 mans can be made much easier and drop worse loot then.

    Right?


  18. #998
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Well, not really.

    What a few of us are saying is why not design the game based on the players you've got rather than some mythical players* who will put up with a lot of bullshit before things become fun?


    *To be fair these people do exist, they are hardcore raiders. It's just that the sort of person who hardcore raids isn't very representative of the bulk of wows population.
    Catering to this crowd anymore if it will come at the enjoyment for the majority of the player base is the perfect definition of blizzard shooting themself in the foot. It will have radical results on subs and realm drama which will lead to more subs lost.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-22 at 01:19 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Exactly, so 25 mans can be made much easier and drop worse loot then.

    Right?

    Just let it drop 10 items / boss kill as well should make life easy as shit for 25man guilds.

  19. #999
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by araine View Post
    Catering to this crowd anymore if it will come at the enjoyment for the majority of the player base is the perfect definition of blizzard shooting themself in the foot. It will have radical results on subs and realm drama which will lead to more subs lost.


    Hmm what? Catering specficially to the majority of the playerbase will annoy the majority of the playerbase? how do you work that out?
    ---------- Post added 2012-11-22 at 01:19 AM ----------

    Just let it drop 10 items / boss kill as well should make life easy as shit for 25man guilds.
    Drop 10 items in 10 man but tune it hard as balls and make 25 mans pieace of piss cakewalks that drop fewer items but of the same ilvl. There will be 25 man raids everywhere again.

    If you want more 25 mans all you have to do is drop the elitist thinking...........

  20. #1000
    Quote Originally Posted by Oldmilwaukee View Post
    You guyz really want Paragon to go back to 25 man rofl. Giving any sort of better reward in either of the 2 mode will force all the serious guild to switch to that specific mode which is pretty damn stupid. 25 men takes more work indeed but in the end its a choice. So your making the choice of making your life harder and Blizz should reward you for it ? Just switch to 10s if its too hard for you.
    You're aware that Paragon said few weeks ago they would rather raid 25 man but they can't get enough people from Finland to be able to compete with the best 25 man guilds after they lost more than 10 players before MoP. It's hard to find such skilled players in a small country that also can raid on their schedule. So they dropped to 10 man. Not because that wanted it, they had no choice if they wanted to get world firsts. To repeat, they would rather raid 25 man if they could.

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