How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[Deleted]

No, its not. Not so long as those 270k+ actually want to do 10s. There is no magical law that states there should be some fixed ratio

Im sure some of them prefer to do 10 mans but I know for a fact that a lot of the guilds on my server (ironically the 4 best 10 man guilds on the server) wants to be 25 man. However if you ask these guilds if they would do it despite doing worse progress none of them would suddenly want to go 25 man and that is the real problem.

[Granyala]

No, its not. Not so long as those 270k+ actually want to do 10s. There is no magical law that states there should be some fixed ratio.

The more interesting question: How many of these have too crappy computers to be able to enjoy 25man? You may be able to run it with 6FPS, but enjoying is something different.

[Frubx]

What if we're looking at this all wrong? (10/25 split).

Perhaps a solution is actually better tech, like the challenge mode scaling but for bosses - turning 10/25 in to a minimum and maximum raid size.

That way you could keep the same lockout, loot table etc and just scale the raid difficulty to the number of people who zone in.

It would need some work of course to prevent abuse...but a different concept from how it is today, without any "guild killing" downsize/upsize/logistic issues.

[DisposableHero]

Here is my answer to anyone that says that 10 and 25 are equal. Do the dps check. I have done both 10 and 25, and while some mechanics are harder on 10, 25s always has a higher personal DPS requirement. Meaning the avg dps required to kill the boss is higher on 25 than 10. If you want to convince me that they are the same then start there. Why does it take more avg dps to kill a boss on 25 than it does on 10?

There are a metric ton of reasons here are a few:

1) If the DPS requirements of the fight are too low the fight can be trivialized by subtracting DPS and adding healers or by subtracting healers and out DPSing mechanics. Keeping the requirements high prevents the extra flexibility that comes with extra players of any particular role from being game breaking.
2) Raid wide, non-lockout cooldowns like Skull Banner and Stormlash Totem can be used multiple times per combat by coordinating multiple members of those classes, inflating overall DPS
3) Classes with important buffs and debuffs for DPS can be flat out missing in 10 mans, they are always present in 25s, and you get better uptime on anything that isn't 100% and you get a high percentage of your raid being able to ignore opportunity costs on those buffs and focus on maximum DPS.
4) A higher percentage of the raid are DPS spec on most fights, meaning the translation has to be higher than just 2.5 times the boss HP.
5) Individual deaths have much less meaning in 25 man so in order to make them more meaningful in hard fights the DPS requirements have to be tighter, so losing someone is more of a penalty
6) Tanks take more damage to challenge the larger body of healers and do more DPS due to vengeance, so the amount of DPS accounted for by tanks goes up.
7) Mechanics that force a portion of the raid to move have a less severe effect on raid DPS in 25s because normally a smaller percentage of the raid will be affected by each cast, so the adjustment in the bosses hp total to account for time spent moving has to be accounted for.
8) Downtime caused by mechanics doesn't as frequently cause debuffs to fall off the boss when you have a lot of backup sources of those debuffs, making their uptime much better
9) Target swapping mandated by the fight can be assigned to those classes that lose the least DPS for target swapping, or gain the most DPS when cleaving/multidotting reducing DPS lost to target overhead and allowing more efficient use of raid DPS.

All of the above and more are the reasons why personal DPS requirements in 25 mans are more strict by necessity than 10 mans. It does not make the fights easier on 10 man, nor the role of DPS harder on 25 man, it just means that a 25 man raid can expect to get more out of each DPS than a 10 man, and have more flexibility in developing strategies about where they assign resources, because there resources are in chunks that represent a larger percentage of the whole raid.

[Deleted]

Lets kick the 3 warlocks because they are on the same spark and have low damage on targets that is alive for only a few seconds right? Thats what happens if you just do it blindly. This has nothing to do with underperforming players it has something to do with the fact that not everyone has an epic weapon and not all classes are the same. This is something that everyone in the raid needs to help with because the raid leader cant keep track of everything.

So you tell warlock A to go to green, warlock B to red, and warlock C to blue. Wow that was already hard we couldn't have thought of that. Too many warlocks? Go bench some. Its really that simple. Like I said steady DPS and burst can make up for mage/warlock.

The higher hp is not there because theres 15 more people in the raid, the higher number is there because blizzard is bad at designing their raid encounters. In 10 man you use 2 tanks and 6 dps and in 25 man you use 2 tanks and 18 dps. The sparks have 3 times as much hp in 25 man but if you were to multiply the number of people who can damage the sparks in 10 it would be 6 tanks and 18 dps. In 25 man you are "missing" 4 tanks compared to 10 man and this is something you need to make up for by doing PERFECT spark dps or in other words spread the 2 tanks and 18 dps so evenly out that you can still kill 5 waves of sparks.

One tip: AoE dmg. You got way more DPS, so you also got way more AoE dmg (potentially about 3x). You also have more flexibility in your composition because you can easier cover raid buffs.

In 10 man you dont need to do perfect spark dps because it is IMPOSSIBLE to do so but that doesnt mean its impossible in 25 man its just much much harder than asigning 1 dps to each spark and then letting tanks help the worst ones.

I already told you one fire mage with bad RNG won't be able to cope with his spark. I already explained to you how two stable DPS can make up for that in 25m. Do I have to explain to you you can even let certain classes focus on AoE dmg instead of single target burst or do you already understand what I'm saying?

You missed the entire point. 6 dps in 10 man equals 18 dps in 25 man and that is true, 2 tanks in 10 man equals 6 tanks in 25 man and that is not true. The hp of the sparks are 0,5 times higher than it should be ie it should be 2,5 times as high as the hp of 10 man sparks but it is infact 3 times as high.

You are right the solution is to split the 3 locks but that is also what makes 25 man so much harder, you NEED to split up your tanks and dps in groups to make sure that the sum of each groups dps is equal. If you dont do that and do it blindly like you are able to in 10 man you will end up wiping to enrage because you will only get 3-4 sparks down at maximum.

In 10 man what you do is 1 dps on each spark and your highest damaging tank with the lowest dps and the other tank with the second lowest dps. In 25 man you spend HOURS trying to work out 6 PERFECT groups to get down 5 sparks every time.

Yeah but by contrast the healing should be either easier or you run with less healers. Didn't Paragon 3man heal Rag 25 HC? You can't solo heal Rag 10 HC due to mechanics. Your AoE heals are also stronger, and stuff like atonement will always heal the melee.

Also in 10m you also need to smart assign and position in such a way people can make up for other people's weakness but there's less micromanagement like class/role leaders. If your raid leader is doing all of this work without help then he needs to learn to delegate tasks and give people responsibility, and force the raiders to also take responsibility.

---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 08:13 PM ----------

I[...]
You see whatever they do, they will end up to the one size solution, i am pretty certain of it.
In the case they overincentify 25s i see 15 or 20 (less likely) as the most dominant candidate for single size.
In the case they just offer a temporary bandaid to 25s, i am afraid, that 10 man is the most possible candidate for single size, with less chances for a 15 ppl size, and that would make me a very sad panda.

I agree, because eventually WoW will become less popular and will get in some kind of maintenance mode (EOL). Kinda like the state SWTOR was in ever since a weeks after it was launched. Once in this mode, it is easier to develop a once size fits all raid with 3 difficulties (LFR, N, HC) because that is 3 tuning instead of 5. Its simply cheaper. That is also the great part of CRZ. If there's nobody in CRZs then the game is truly dead. They can also make the last raids ridiculously difficult so that the content lasts longer. After all, it is truly the "end-game". A smaller size than 25 which is easily manageable (such as 10 or 15) would be suffice.

[DannathGR]

They should return to a gear advantage in 25s. Especially now that we're going to have so many different item levels of the same item, just make 25 gear 5 ilevels better.

Far less likely, they could do something like remove the last heroic fight in an instance, or add a boss for 25 mans only.

There's a huge chunk of 10 man raiders that would love to do 25s, but there are very few logisticians out there that can overcome the hurdles that Blizzard has setup. One of which is the vicious circle that the op pretty much describes:

If you don't fill your 25, people will just do 10>the more people already in a 10 group, the less are available to do a 25>and then the less who are available for 25, the harder is is to fill a 25>If you don't fill your 25, people will just do 10.

10man was supposed to just be raiding-lite(and in some ways still is) but right now the current system is basically 10mans cannibalizing 25mans.

I feel like like the popularity of ZA and Kara was completely misread by the devs and now this fail train is coming off the tracks. This instances were so good, but if there was a 25 too, they would have just been meh. The same thing is happening, just in reverse.

[Deleted]

snip

What you dont seem to comprehend is that in a fight such as elegon 10 man vs 25 man the 25 man version has another depth to it. It doesnt matter which fight is harder overall but the 25 man version is just a fuck ton harder in the spark phase, the fact that you have to pair up people is what makes it non faceroll. In 10 man you will never ever run into the same problems however in a 15 raid setting you could run into the same things as in 25 man. They could also remove 3 sparks on 10 man and force 10 man guilds into grouping up people just like in 10 man but I guess that would be too much work for them.

[Affiniti]

Far less likely, they could do something like remove the last heroic fight in an instance, or add a boss for 25 mans only.

That completely goes against what blizzard is trying to do though. The idea is they want 10 and 25 to be equal, and not one raid setting to be considered "mandatory" for progression sake. If you made a boss 25-man only, it would then be considered MANDATORY to at least do 25man for that specific boss as you are losing out on loot/titles/rankings/etc from that one boss.


The concept of trying to make 10 and 25 EQUAL is going to be something that is never fully fixable. You are always looking at, for one reason or another, 10 or 25 being the "better" choice (Boss mechanics, fight balancing, easier to manage 10 people vs 25 people, so on).

My honest opinion if blizzard truly cares about keeping it "equal" they need to just pony up and make a huge gamechanging decision like making 1 difficulty (~15 man raids). Both 10 and 25 will never truly be on equal footing. If 25man gives higher ilvl gear, then most top guilds will do 25 man (if paragon stays 10 man, they would do what they do now -- a 25man normal raid to funnel gear into their 10 mains [READ - not saying anything is bad about this, just that higher ilvl gear in 25man will affect the 10 man race as people will NEED/WANT 25man gear to compete in 10 man progression raiding]) -- if 25man has higher ilvl then guilds will simply progress in 10 man and then upscale to 25man to get extra gear so the next tier is that much easier.

Solution: 1 raid setting that is a middle ground between both settings. Yes it will suck to upscale/downscale, yes it will be a hard switch, but it is the only way to truly put things on an even ground.

[Deleted]

Well, it might not seem like much, but...

With the new ilvl upgrades through valor coming in 5.1, 10mans could drop the current standard item (496 / 509), and 25's could drop the fully upgraded equivalent (504/517). What it would mean is that as a payoff for the extra logistical work of running 25man, you get to avoid the extra work of needing to chain cap valor with dailies every week.

10's would still get equal quality loot, but would need the extra step.

Just a random thought that came into my head, might be terrible.

That is a pretty interesting idea!

Maybe just 1 of the upgrades that way the level so 25 man people still have some use for VP but not the same.

In the end for this they could just give more VP per boss for 25 man which would work out the same in the end.

[Hedleyazg]

Until 25 mans give better loot level wise 25 mans are not worth the hassle/bullshit guild leadership has to deal with on a daily basis.

[Gurbz]

Solution: 1 raid setting that is a middle ground between both settings. Yes it will suck to upscale/downscale, yes it will be a hard switch, but it is the only way to truly put things on an even ground.

I think that is what it will ultimately come down to. The only question remaining is when will Blizzard bite the bullet and do it. The next expansion would be the soonest something like this could be implemented, given how much such a change would impact. I only worry that they will still want to try some other bandaid fix before they commit to that, and we end up with another couple years of the disparity.

[Sanguinare]

Any thing they do to help 25 man guilds will piss off 10 man players.

just like pissing off all the 25 man players by making it one lock out in cata.

In BC we had fights like High King Maulgar, Fathom-Lord Karathress, Kael'thas and the Illidari Council all fights that you needed to split the raid in to more then just 2 teams all are 100% not doable in a 10man of the right level and gear.

Then wrath came and just killed that so that was a stab in the gut of 25 man raiding the 10 at lower gear levels was just a carrot on the stick to the 25 man by showing them that it was not that bad. so step one of pissing off 25 man guilds.

Then we get Cata only one raid lock out for both only one server first for both this would have killed 25 man if not for the memories of the 25 mans in the past. i think.

now with MOP we have the same thing as cata any solution you come out with will piss off 10 mans one i kind of like for the rest of MOP would be with the new valor ilevel boosting would be 10 man gear drops at 1/3 boost form valor ilevel boost and 25 man drops at 2/3 and and yes to the 10 man hardcores it will feel like a knife to the gut but we 25 man hardcore fans had it happen to us 2 times so quit your crying.

ps 10 weeks to get a 10 man raid all legendary gems and 13 for a 25 man is kind of BS.

[DannathGR]

The concept of trying to make 10 and 25 EQUAL is going to be something that is never fully fixable. You are always looking at, for one reason or another, 10 or 25 being the "better" choice (Boss mechanics, fight balancing, easier to manage 10 people vs 25 people, so on).

^ This

Seems to me that just favoring the 25s with loot/additional encounters would offset the logistic weight of 25s.

[Deleted]

No, its not. Not so long as those 270k+ actually want to do 10s. There is no magical law that states there should be some fixed ratio.



So, for you to have fun, we need to drag 10 players from a format they enjoy?

EJL

"It isn't a reflection of what our players want, but what is simplest for the guild leadership."

[Odina]

In 10 man what you do is 1 dps on each spark and your highest damaging tank with the lowest dps and the other tank with the second lowest dps. In 25 man you spend HOURS trying to work out 6 PERFECT groups to get down 5 sparks every time.

we have 2 fire mages an ele sham s.priest, feral kitty, and a lock... Please explain to me how splitting up the 2 tanks is easy in 10 man? Take the 2 lowest dps... only for RNG to be a biatch on one attempt and a fire mage gets no procs... put the 2 tanks with fire mages... only to have the locks slip through... 1 fire mage and 1 lock...only to have the other fire rng slapped...

Same shit happens in 10's and 25's you organise your group per your MAKEUP! This is not a 10 vs 25 issue where it's harder to organise 25 people it's a balance of your raid issue that both 10 and 25's have to work on based on your groups composition.

[Hedleyazg]

"It isn't a reflection of what our players want, but what is simplest for the guild leadership."

This quote sums it up nicely. 10 mans are more popular because the raid size is FAR easier to maintain/keep 10 raiders happy than it is in a 25 man, period.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

If people (in general) are only prepared to run 25 man if they get bribed to do so even if they prefer 25 man to the alternative, why have 25 man raiding in the game?

[Granyala]

If people (in general) are only prepared to run 25 man if they get bribed to do so even if they prefer 25 man to the alternative, why have 25 man raiding in the game?

Because back in the day: raids = large group content.

IF you ask me: the introduction of 10 mans was a big mistake. It was sorta o.k. in TBC but even then the transition from Kara -> Gruul/Mag was an dead end barrier for many guilds.

ZA being 10man also created unnecessary drama, peeps bitchin about being left out etc.

If Kara & ZA had been 25man raids, and 10mans were never introduced, we all would have a lot less problems.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

If Kara & ZA had been 25man raids, and 10mans were never introduced, we all would have a lot less problems.

You would likely not have that much of a player base to recruit from.

[Granyala]

You would likely not have that much of a player base to recruit from.

You have no data at all to support this claim, so I'd be careful if I were you.


Were I a dev, would have set it up like this:

LFR 25: Drops blue gear somewhere between HC 5mans and 25man normals that uses different models than raiding or 5man HC gear.
Normal 25: The raid for "normal" guilds, difficulty would be like TBC 25mans.
Elite 25: Insane difficulty, only intended for the world first guilds. No artificial entry barrier like "clear normal lol", except mean gear checks. This difficulty also would never be nerfed (except bug fixes of course) and would not be accessible any longer once a new raid tier is introduced. It would drop gear of superior item level but no different models, only recolors of the normal 25 gear.

Would a system like that have fared better than what we have now? What do I know. That's why I don't blame Blizzard for their mistakes. The only thing you actually can do, is release an Idea, let it run for 2-4 years and look at the results.