How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[Adrienne516]

Offering a reward kinda seems like saying "There are two raid formats, we consider one superior and bribe you to do it".

[Deleted]

Offering a reward kinda seems like saying "There are two raid formats, we consider one superior and bribe you to do it".

Nop and you were doing fine till the final "and", after that you blew it.

It is actually "we consider the one superior and you get properly rewarded by doing it"
As it has always been.
As reason would dictate
As fairness would impose.

You see there arent "two raiding formats".
There is the 10 man raiding format, possible to create overnight.
And there is the 25 man raiding format. Try doing the same :P

[proxemics]

There is already a substantial benefit to running a 25 man raid as apposed to a 10man raid.
1. You get more loot off each boss (even ratio wise)
2. If you're in a good raiding guild you have even more good healers/dps/tanks
3. You don't have to crunch groups as much as 10mans in order to get every available buff/debuff

So raiding 10 player you could be waiting for a certain piece of loot WAY longer than in 25man and yes I understand that sometimes you will also be waiting a long time for loot in 25 man also. But a boss kill yields ONE non-token item and ONE token as apposed to 3 tokens and what 4 items?

I say this going from raiding 25mans for the past almost 2.5 years, and now going to 10man because of attendance and performance issues.

Some people prefer to raid to raid 25 player raids and some people want to raid 10 player raids. I don't see why people think they should be compensated for raiding one size or another. If anything 10 man should get some kind of benefit, its not harder or easier to raid one or the other. The only thing that may make it seem harder is 25 man has more of a chance of having people that just want to dick around. There's a reason that most of the top guilds in the world are 25 man there is no sense in making an argument that 10 man is easier or 25 man is easier it comes down to the skill of EVERY raider in both sizes of raids. The only reason people may think that 10man is easier is because the quality of the 10 players HAS to be high in order to kill bosses, aka less room for errors.

[Talen]

@lolalola
I would hardly think that someone that does 10 aka is a firm follower of "the path of least resistance" is in position to critisize others for doing the same, even if they state that they prefer the other size.

People do 10s because they like the format. Because thats where their friends are. Because its easy to find a guild or raid that suits your schedule. As many players find that the difficulty is comparable, and indeed, would be better rewarded by playing 25s, the "Path of Least Resistance" is a term that can really only be applied to the Raid Leaders as opposed to the typical 10 man raider.

There are of course those raiders who aren't interested in format, but do value progression and find that it is easy to skew their 10 man raid team in such a way that they can steamroller though 10s and give the impression to everyone else that 10s are inherently easier than they actually are. Just like a SEAL will have an easier time and greater chance of success in an average mission than GI Joe.

As i said plenty of times, the fact that threads like those exist non stop, both in mmo champ and in wow forums EU and US, is evidence enough that there is a problem.

Maybe...it would help if it wasn't the same few regulars who kept posting in them and starting them though. That way you'd at least have the impression that there were more players actually affected or concerned about this issue.

Blizzard devs couldnt have put it more clearly that indeed there is a problem, not because all raid 10, but because they raid 10 while they would prefer to raid 25s.

It's a problem. It deserves to be addressed. Its likely to be much less of a problem than you think. Blizzard devs also gave reasons why players prefer 10s. And they are good reasons. Many players simply do not like 25s. Many players like the factors that make 10s attractive.

So i would suggest not to try to twist the truth and to get ready to enjoy the upcoming changes with the rest of us

And if those changes are "We're killing 25s and going 10s only."? If those changes are "We are addressing the logistics issues that affect raid leaders but not going to do anything to actively bring players back to 25s?"

What then?

What if those changes don't work? What if Blizzard actually address those logistics issues but the decline continues? What then?

But dont worry, soon we will be raiding 25s again :P Start looking for subs for your empty slots!
It shouldnt be so hard, after all it is only 10 slots with you filling one already!
Especially when you are advising others to find 24 like minded people to raid 25s!
Easy busy, recruit recruit :P

I think you are being wildly over optimistic about the extent to which Blizzard are going to address this issue. The recent Blue Post on this issue spent a lot of time talking about the logistics problems and raid leaders for example. That, to me, is a sign of where Blizzard thinks the actual problems with the format lies.

But it said nothing about incentivising players to join 25s. It said it wants to compensate for that logistical burden...a burden borne only by a few players.

Unfortunately, unless Blizzard do "incentivise" players to rejoin 25s, then any recovery is, IMO, likely to be slow and spread over months, maybe years. And there isn't any sign that they are going to do this.

However, I do hope you are right.

EJL

[cFortyfive]

There is the 10 man raiding format, possible to create overnight.
And there is the 25 man raiding format. Try doing the same :P

I'd say that close to everyone answering those threads here have absolutely no experience doing recruitment for a 25 man or being in in the guild leadership business of a 25 man group anyways.

[Sanguinare]

do 10 mans it is easier and you will have less people to deal with and that is its bribe.
do 25 mans and get better gear with more people to get to know and that is its bribe.


you 10 man raiders fear that the gear bribe is too good just like 25 man players believe the easier for 10 mans is to good a bribe.

with 2 lockouts 25 man would win hands down with lower level gear in 10 mans would kill 10 mans sounds like all the changes blizzard did was to bribe you 10 man raiders to play because with was done before Cata was not working. so why not take back one of the 10 man bribes.

or the easier part boost it to insane levels of hard you think you would get the top 10 of a 25 man if that was true sadly i don't think so people would try to do 10 man mostly fail and go to pug 25 for the loot.

now back to what i said earlier why not just boost valor not in the get more but the need less let 25 man drop gear the is at stage 2 so only 4 ilevels higher but 10 man gear will be equal after only 750 valor for every piece of gear and end in the same place.

[Mormolyce]

Nop and you were doing fine till the final "and", after that you blew it.

It is actually "we consider the one superior and you get properly rewarded by doing it"
As it has always been.
As reason would dictate
As fairness would impose.

You see there arent "two raiding formats".
There is the 10 man raiding format, possible to create overnight.
And there is the 25 man raiding format. Try doing the same :P

25m is NOT always harder than 10m. When one raid format is harder than the other it is AN ACCIDENT. They are tuned to the same level of difficulty as much as Blizzard can manage (and tuning 10 and 25 the same is actually really hard, there are many meta-game factors involved as well). If they were deliberately tuned differently we'd be back in Wrath.

So... maybe Blizzard should "reward" you for raiding 25 only on bosses that are harder on 25? And on 10 when the 10m version is harder? How would they even make that determination?

Stupid argument.

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 03:33 AM ----------

do 10 mans it is easier and you will have less people to deal with and that is its bribe.
do 25 mans and get better gear with more people to get to know and that is its bribe.


you 10 man raiders fear that the gear bribe is too good just like 25 man players believe the easier for 10 mans is to good a bribe.

My raid team is 25m.
I do not want different tuning or loot between 10 and 25.
I do not want un-shared lockouts back.
Thank you.

[Sansnom]

I don't really understand this. If there are more people who prefer raiding in 25m, and 25m raids are still available, so why are people saying 25m raids are dying?

Maybe because not as many people prefer 25m as they think there are. Maybe people raided 25m in the past because the carrots was a lot shiny are than the one from 10m.

If they want to reward for more "logistical" effort, have the raid drop a little more carrots rather than better carrots.

[wilbbailey]

Shard lockouts killed 25s its a simple as that.

[tennesseej]

How about stuff like:
- Less run time from death to boss in 25
- Easier repair options in 25
- Summons/teleports to 25 raids (i dunno how this would work)
- easy reforging access or reagents in 25

Ie. easier logistics related to 25 to make up for the logistics needed to get 25 ppl together.

I agree with this. While the OP has a good idea and is a step in the right direction, I don't think it will last. I think you literally have to make 25 man raiding logistically easier to offset the increased logistics. I don't think it would make 10 man guilds want to do 25s, but it would make any guild that tries 25s think "Hey, this was easier than I thought, maybe we can do this"

[Gondlem]

I don't really understand this. If there are more people who prefer raiding in 25m, and 25m raids are still available, so why are people saying 25m raids are dying?

Maybe because not as many people prefer 25m as they think there are. Maybe people raided 25m in the past because the carrots was a lot shiny are than the one from 10m.

If they want to reward for more "logistical" effort, have the raid drop a little more carrots rather than better carrots.

Because there are more 10 man raid teams, starting your own 10 man raid team is easier, more new 10 mans form regularly while new 25 mans are almost non-existant, and many 25 man guilds eventually end up switching to 10 man while the opposite change rarely occurs. Because of all of this it is far easier to get opportunities to raid in a 10 man team. If you prefer 10 mans, you can easily find 10 mans. If you prefer 25 mans, you're probably raiding 10 man anyway because there are so few options out there that are going to suit your raid times, desired progression, need your class etc.

Blizzard wants both options to be available but they recognise that the additional difficulty associated with forming and maintaining a 25 man raid team has led to a relative lack of those guilds. They want both formats to be played rather than just the one that's easier to organise. Simple enough isn't it?

[Zoldor]

The only people who see any increase in difficulty due to logistical effort are the raid leads. Nothing else about 25 man is any harder for a majority of the raid members. Rewarding them just encourages more people who take none of the increased effort to raid 25 man. I would say throw 25s another piece of gear maybe, but that again will rarely benefit the raid lead.

There should be a roll check option for raid leaders and those folks should get an extra 3 bonus rolls, but only in their 25 man lockout or give them a special title "Leader of "guild name"" or I dunno "General of the Molten Front" I dunno something like that. Giving that extra bonus to the folks who just cling into the 25 man, who more than likely with 25 man will vanish in a couple weeks mysteriously, is really not solving the problem or saving the "dying" raid format, it just adds more worthless scrubs to the list of morons the Raid lead has to deal with while trying to make the strat/raid/etc happen.

[Daerio]

I see a lot of hardcore "I only play 10 mans because I prefer it... and my computer sucks" getting mad at the thought that maybe a couple of those people in their "dedicated" 10 man group might actually have the opportunity to going back to the raid format they love, 25 mans. I've never worried that somebody in my 25 man raid might suddenly decide one day that they prefer 10 man, because if they did - they'd already be doing it. The inverse is not true, for reasons already given.

If you don't have enough raiders to do a 25 man raid, suddenly it's a 10 man raid. 10 mans cannibalize 25s, that's how it works. 10 mans pop up and fade away over night, all the time. 25s don't suddenly spring up out of nowhere, it's a struggle to form a new one - there are a LOT of guilds trying to do it, and they fail more often than not.

Semi-back to the topic at hand, a lot of you guys have this idea "Lets just reward the raid leader(s), they're the only ones that matter/do anything!" The truth is, the only REAL thing that would help is some sort of change that makes recruitment easier - the change needs to happen with the 'new people' - NOT rewarding the 1-2 people that 'run the guild.' Doing something that makes cross-realm recruitment easier somehow would work just as well as extra loot, or whatever else - but it probably means Blizzard is going to lose money in the short-term (less paid realm transfers, etc) even if it "might" mean in the long-time that more people keep subscriptions running because 25 mans still exist. That isn't the kind of decision I can see Blizzard making - it's always about the short term. I'm sure there are other solutions that are out there that could help with forming/keeping 25 mans together that don't involve extra incentives, but instead reduce the strain on picking up new players cross-realm. Unfortunately I don't think those options can exist with Blizzard still maintaining 100% of their micro-transaction fees. (PS - they need to remove restrictions on server transfers, like the gold cap)

It's true that pretty much anything they do to fix what is going on with 25 mans is probably going to upset the "hardcore" (lol) 10 man community. Chances are good some of those people they have in their raids are going to switch back to 25s, and it's going to upset them even more. But maybe there should be a real opportunity for people to play 25s if that's what they want to do, too. A lot of people don't want to server transfer to join a 25 man guild that meets their scheduling requirements, meets their progression requirements, meets their dedication (research into fights, etc) requirements, and that they can fit in with on a personal level - and leave behind all their friends on their old server. There aren't very many options on the VAST majority of servers these days when it comes to 25 man guilds, and chances are good whatever guild happens to be on your server isn't going to meet your requirements.

[TWBrien]

Why not just let 25mans use two elder charms per boss instead of one? it's a minor bonus that can be used once per week. It's not gamebreaking. Just a little bonus for doing the larger raid format.

[Nebria]

buffing 25man raid will lead to the situation where everybody wants to do 25man. imo it already is unfair because the chance is high that 2 item drops that nobody needs anymore.
the only solution for me is merge 10 and 25man into a new size like 15man and you are done with all this issues.

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 09:05 AM ----------

Why not just let 25mans use two elder charms per boss instead of one? it's a minor bonus that can be used once per week. It's not gamebreaking. Just a little bonus for doing the larger raid format.

thats a good idea.
however I think blizzard would just increase the chance to get an item in 25man...

[markdall]

25 man raid bosses should drop proportionally more loot than 10 man raid bosses do, plus maybe 1 piece of extra loot on top of that. I'd say 2 piece of extra loot but by the end of the raid that's a LOT of extra loot. What they definitely should not do though is drop better loot, or a higher number of quest tokens (sigils, things each player gets) per boss. That's BS.

You know what happens when you have 24 people? You pug someone and if they aren't great, you're probably ok. You know what happens when you have 9 people? You pug someone, and if they aren't great you are done for the night.

[apepi]

Been thinking, how about instead of having 10 or 25 man, we could get away from both of them and people could have any number of raid comp they want. The minimum would be 10 and the max would be 40. The bosses would hit harder and have harder mechanics according to how many people are in the raid. Then the more people you bring the more loot that drops. It would provide any comp and would fix the 10 vs 25 and the whole creation of 15, 20 etc...

[Daerio]

You know what happens when you have 24 people?

You raid 10 man instead.

[Cerunnir]

In all honesty the only thing that would really give people more incentive to do 25man over 10 is higher quality loot.

But that itself causes its own problems - having one raid setting giving better rewards than the other screws over people who don't/aren't able to do it. If they share lockouts it pisses on 10man guilds, likely forcing people to leave their guilds and join 25man guilds instead, even if they dont like 25s. If they dont share lockouts it still pisses on 10man guilds because they will feel compelled to pug 25s or be left behind in the dirt.

At the end of the day the only two options are this:
1) Give 25mans some meager extra rewards like additional loot and hope that enough people just prefer to do it.
2) Put different quality loot in different settings and suffer the same issues that WotLK had.

Unless you want to screw over alot of people it seems the only real option is just to add some minor bonuses to 25mans and hope that's enough to keep them alive.

I really like the idea mentioned of giving 25 mans pre-upgraded gear.

[Deleted]

Thats the problem. After Icecrown I was fed up with the bull**** thats coming up in 25 man raids. Seriously... these "few" 25 man raids still left at the Top of progression level have 25 dedicated players who are reliable, do everything for progression and have time to do so... Has anyone of you ever raided in a 2-3 Day 25 man raid?

Well here is how it is:

Raid Starts at 19:00pm ...

its 18:30 --> 10 to 12 people are online, usually it the same damn people everytime, every raid, every week. Prepared. Buffed. Watched guides. Want to progress.

18:45 --> 15-18 people online, everything looks good... 15 min here we go.

18:55 --> 20-23 people online... still normal procedure. 15 people are in the instance other people flying around in ogrimmar, on their way to raid, gettin ported. getting buffs, enchants etc.

19:00 --> Still waiting for 1-2 people.. Starting trash. First people start asking for Bufffood, enchants. Tactics are getting described for some poeple.

19:10 --> Groups stand infront of the first boss. Still 1-2 people missing... What should we do... can someone get them on the phone? Should we look for a random? One random doesnt matter anyway... Well lets go look for one.

19:15-20 --> Here we go! Lets pull the Boss... But whait! There is more... "I have noo food"! "Ehm, did you post a guide for this boss?" My cat died while eating my mouse, fell on the computer and it burns right now!!!!" "I have bronken my leg while sitting on the toilet" and propably 1000 and one storys (The funny thing is, its always the same damn scumbag people, who are late, unreliable, play like sh*t and c*ckblock progression as always.

19:30 Hurray the boss gets pulled! Wow.. finally!

So please tell me more about, why I shouldn't take the 10-12 reliable, prepared and good people from these 25+ and form a 10 man group who will do better, has the same progression determinations and understand each other to raid? ( Well, DUH! Thats what I actually did)

But wait, I'll give you a progression 4-5 day raiding 25 man world top view:

19:00pm: 1st Boss is dead.


I do not want to play a game I put time and effort into with lazy, unreliable and skillless people, who come exactly and only for the raid. Who get washed throught the raid with the other members and do nothing in return. I have raided many year in different 25 man raids and it was always the same scenario over and over again until I went a year to a progression 25 man raid. But since I cant handle 5 days per week with a Job, a Girlfriend and other things to do in life.

I just dont know... you can handle this game so extremely well with 2-3 raiddays if only poeple are punctual, prepared, reliable and have more skill than a watermelon