I long for the good old days when people ran MC or BWL with 39 others. The 'logistics' back then were way worse than any 10 or 25 man guild this day can imagine, but everyone pulled their own weight and we survived
Spoiled, spoiled brats
I long for the good old days when people ran MC or BWL with 39 others. The 'logistics' back then were way worse than any 10 or 25 man guild this day can imagine, but everyone pulled their own weight and we survived
Spoiled, spoiled brats
Oki lets see...
1) Because they got fed up with all this mess.
It will never stop no matter what decision blizzard take now for 25s. If they do nothing, this will continue with 25s complaining and 10s being irrational in their effords to find an argument for the current situation. If we roll back to a "wrath like" system, the same will happen, only now with switched roles.
2) Because they have a strong sence of realism.
They know that even if they prefer doing 25s it is there currently as a choice only for the elite of wow raiders, not for the majority of the player base. And if they are 10 man raiders they also know that a change will prevent them to get the rewards and the prestige that end game offers.
3) Because they find the one too small and the other too big.
This is particularly true with the new cluster feck and pointless spell effects from players and mobs alike for 25s, and in encounters that have to be severely chopped to be compatible with 10 man (majordomo, beth, stone guard etc).
4) Because they want a level playing field, where the discussion on who is the best is actually centered in the efficiency of the team and not the size the kill has happened.
5) Because they want raid environment designed around a size, just in case they get their Karazhan feeling back or their SCC/BT feeling back.
6) Because they want a stable environment to plan and manage their guilds recruitment and needs rather than having to worry every patch that they will have to upsize or downsize, according to what is efficient.
7) Because they want more content instead of more balancing.
Some are quite fed up with quarrels and endless debates about...
-Should we incentivise 25?
-Is the system or the players to be blamed for the death of 25s?
-Do we have one or two world/realm first races?
-Does 25 carry bads (and get away with it)?
-Is 10 man easier overall?(and then define overall)
All those things will never end, as i already mentioned, and many prefer 15 man simply not to have to do with all those things ever again...
Last edited by mmoc4cbbce03d2; 2012-11-21 at 10:01 AM.
This thread makes it evident that 25 man supporters are just raiding at the top level and have no understanding or interest in how overwhelming majority of raiding works.
Separate achivements, Separate realm firsts? lolz as if that would encourage people to form 25 man guilds. All it does it makes the epeen a little shiner on the guild that is dominating the server.
The reason 10 man works so well is that you actually can play wow as a game and not as a second job. a great many people must agree set aside time to make 25 work. Raidtimes becomes inflexible and cancelled raids and delays negatively affect more people.
A 10 man is built around a close group of 5-6 people, often they know eachother in real life, finding 4-5 other people for a raid is not always easy but doable without living in the wow game. That group of players can chose to raid any day of the week, at any time and they are actually able to.
This freedom is greatest thing about wow raiding right now.
You guys might not believe it but the overwhelming majority of people aren't able or willing to set a side 3-4 nights a week for raiding every week, even though they enjoy raiding and can very well be good at it and this is the only way the 25 man monster can work.
But even with a 15 man raiding size this flexibility would dissappear. You would never find 10 players in trade at midnight matching the friend groups requirements. And their choices going by the old model, those friends group can't play together anymore since all the can chose from is individually conforming to the agenda of different 25 guilds or not raid at all.
I actually wouldn't mind getting flasks \ food to make it so time spent outside of raid can be managing the guild over managing guild resources. I like the idea of being able to pick one item from the loot table as well, having a vendor that has every piece of raid loot and you just get a token.
Stop dropping the same loot for starters would go a long way to promoting 25 man raids. That alone would start making 10 man raids less attractive. Having separate balance to go with it since it'll never be fair or even in difficulty is another start. I guess I preferred how everything was initially until they started listening to feedback because people "burned" themselves out. When raids didn't share lockouts you could raid with friends outside of your main raid and get halfway decent items for everyone without having to lfr. The current state of lfr is pretty shit also since it's basically a gold run. If Blizzard isn't willing to make 10m less attractive then I don't see anything changing. Players will predominantly choose less risk with high reward situations.
Actually, the objective difficulty of 10 man vs 25 is the result of design choices and tuning. It's that simple.
In principle Blizzard aim to try and make the two formats equally difficult in terms of skill, gear requirements, time spent practising the fight etc. It is very easy to make a 10 man encounter significantly harder than the 25 man version by simply tuning it that way, and vice versa. Getting the balance perfect isn't that easy though, so for any encounter either 10 man or 25 man will be marginally harder. On average, the only reason why either raid format should be consistently harder is if the devs are messing up the tuning badly.
Anyone trying to argue that 25 man is inherently harder because of xyz, or that 10 man is inherently harder because of abc is talking garbage.
25 man raiding was never harder because of the fact that it is 25 people. It was harder because Blizzard elected to make it so. Unfortunately this has resulted in a situation today where some people believe that if they raid 25 man, they should be entitled to better rewards. Which is just silly if you ask me.
Players should be rewarded according to the difficulty of the content. The choice of whether to go 10 man or 25 man should be entirely about which format, for you, is more fun, not about choosing what you think is the most "elite" or prestigious or hardcore or exclusive.
That being said, and has been acknowledged by Blizzard, and really should be an absolute no brainer, is the fact that 25 man raiding is logistically more complicated to organise and run. Which is, understandably a reason why people don't like the format.
Fundamentally, for the choice to be "fair" 25 man raiding would need to be logistically an equal amount of effort to 10 man. I am not sure that is possible, and furthermore it isn't anyone's fault. It is just one of those things. And the idea of punishing 10 man raiders to try and make up for this unfairness is not fair either.
In the end I personally just shrug my shoulders. If people really wanted to raid 25 man content, it would happen. I can only surmise that the actual number of people who truly want to raid 25 man are pretty small, because those are the people who would handle the logistics. I think most of the alleged 25 man fans are actually people who believe they are superior raiders and want to be given a format in which they feel they can stand out.
Thank you, first time I've actually seen any arguments for it I see a lot of your points, though I don't agree with some of them but that's a matter of opinion. What I do believe though is that switching to 15 mans would destroy a lot of both 10 and 25 man guilds, so I don't think it's a reasonable solution, especially since 15 mans are so similar to 10s that to me it would just seem like causing a lot of harm for little good.
I passionately want 25 mans to revive, but not at the cost of those that prefer 10s - but I don't think it's possible. It's too late, the damage is already done and trying to fix it would just ruin things for a lot of other people.
There, fixed that last statement for you. 25 man raiding is more hassle. It's annoying, it's frustrating, and this adds nothing positive to the experience. It's pretty clear given the number of people who abandoned 25 man raiding at the first opportunity that most people don't like the hassle that is inherent in 25 man raiding, and see no inherent value in the fact that 25 people participate instead of 10.
So if this is the case, why bother fighting so hard to encourage this format if people don't like it? The answer is simple: Because the small number of genuine 25 man fans who remain, and are prepared to put in the extra logistical effort to run a 25 man raid, simply can't accept that most people do not share that opinion. As a result they can't do a raid because they can't find enough people to participate. They then fail to see the irony in forcing people who would rather be raiding 10 man into raiding a format they don't like by offering rewards that cannot be refused.
I think you missunderstood the 15 ppl part.
It is not suggested to add 15 ppl raids next to the 25, or next to the 10 AND 25, but delete both 10 and 25 and have only 15 ppl raids.
Also i think you are missunderstanding the difference between dungeon and raid.
Dungeon was introduced to do stuff with your friends and have fun doing them
And dungeons worked great towards that purpose till TBC.
After that Dungeon got transformed into a faceless grind, and 10 man raids stepped in (while they shouldnt) to fill in that role.
Raiding should be something more serious and more demanding in terms of resources. I doubt that 15 ppl is big enough to fullfill that role, but it is very popular amongst players, and also it is definately serious enough size because as you said, the core of a guild is usually those 5-6 people that are close friends either IRL or from playing together for years.
Still in the 15 people the ones that are not in that close group are the majority, and you need to put some efford to make it work, not just get another 3-4 people and "lets raid".
My opinion is that they should make raiding different than dungeon project from vanilla tbc.
Upgrade dungeons to make em compelling enough to be performed by friends out of RDF (better reward for the non RDF version compined with higher challenge)
And have raids at a size that it is not becoming a second job for the officers, but neither a "0 investment experiment", as the majority of 10 man guilds is today, and you can see it from their mortality rate combined with their "creation rate".
Updating my signature from my WoD characters.
Yikes.
Probably better than you, probably also a casual these days. Go on, keep being elitist.
So why prop it with some bull crap reward? If you don't like it, don't do it!
Most of the 25 crowds are just trying to perpetuate some superiority over the lfr/10 raiding crowd. I enjoyed 25's due to more people being present. Never felt like I needed a carrot to do it.
Dumb suggestion regarding the better gear for 25's. Why? The difficulty's are very close. The higher gear was to cope with the higher heals/health/dps that used to be needed for 25's.
Entitlement+whine=this thread's beginning
Not really, because it's all non game related.
If you have to travel further to work than the guy in the next cubicle, you won't get paid more.
If you are in a bigger group than the team down the hall but are doing the same job you won't get paid more. The managers might, but the staff won't.
What you guy's dont get is, they can and will not be going back. Favor 25man raiding: Piss of the majority of the raiding playerbase, Favor 10man raiding: Piss of your "elite" Playerbase.
- Better items in 25 man raiding: Won't happen... The 10 man raiding playerbase will fell forced to raid 25mans.
- Seperate Lockout: Again.. both sides will just raid both lockouts
We need something, that lets people recognize you are a 25 man raider or a 10 man raider that doesnt give a direct incentive to any of them.
Different Colours? Ok, but still what if someones considers another colour more fitting and feels forced
Free Buffood, enchants? Pls... Everything that gets to your personal pocket is bullcrap
Mounts? No, just NO
More Bonus roll tokens? Are you Insane?
Why do we need to change anything anyway?
Im thinkin about a solution that would please both sides..
Blizzard also said that introducing RDF for raiding is not posible. Look at us now.
I am not saying that it would definately be 15 ppl, but definately one size is the only solution around the problem that cataclysm changes created.
Right now 15 people for that purpose is the most popular.
I mentioned it to my guild and to other people i know outside of guild in the realm and almost all were thrilled at the idea, although they never heard of the suggestion before (not in forums).
The ones that are mostly against are the more serious players, especially those fighting for world/realm firsts no matter if they are raiding 10 or 25 currently. Still, and it is quite understandable, the majority of oposition comes from those running the few remaining 25s. And as i said, they are part of the minority on the subject.
I will respect the topics subject and i wont say more, but really look at this:
Few lines from a dev and we have a 40 page thread in few hours after it's creation!!!
And it is not a thread with people agreeing to a solution for 25s. Half say pretty much "screw them"!
On the other hand it is not a thread that all say screw them either! Half say DO SMT for 25s already!
If that isnt evidence enough that there will never be a solution, i dont know what else to say :S
25man Raids already get their reward in form of more loot. But i know that 25man guilds are dying... especially semi-hardcore and casual ones.
I like the idea of an additional chest with nice stuff in it. 10 Big Feasts, 10 random Flasks and 2000g (to put it into the Guildbank) would be something realistic. During progress these rewards aren't that big, but when you can farm all Bosses you will easily get enough Feasts and Flasks for the whole next Raidtier.
Maybe also give the Chest a chance to contain some "extraroll-tokens".
Moreover you should get more VP in 25man raids... a lot more! Maybe even 100 so you don't have to do any dailies anymore for it.
Go back to how it was, more loot higher ilvl / stats / different loot
Yes I consider 10 man harder than 25 man at times, because you can afford to lose a dps (speaking from a normal - heroic avg guild not world first progress) while in 10 man a loss of a dps can be a wipe, same with healers
But 25 man takes far more orginsation time and effort
Also re separate the lock outs, then a 25 man can split into 2 teams to do 10 mans, like we used to do,
It worked before, Idk why they wanted to fix something that wasnt broken
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