How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[McTurbo]

the failure rate of 25 mans belongs solely in blizzards hands.. if 25 mans are falling apart because of lack of success that means they are to hard and take to long to learn for your average players.. want more 25 mans.. give them the tools or the ability to have more success while raiding them.. cutting players and dropping to 10 is due to the other players not being able to handle the raid... so guilds cut the worst players and focus on the best 10-12.. .. time to start nerfing till you see more success. use to be the first bosses were simple and it got harder as you went in... now.. its hard from the outset and gets hader still as you go in.. sorry.. but new players dont have 7 years of raiding experience to adapt..

[Radalek]

Exactly, so 25 mans can be made much easier and drop worse loot then.

Right?

Why would you change something that worked for years. Harder content on 25 feels more epic and it's what 9/10 truly hard core raiders aim for. Recognition in the format widely accepted as top end raiding. No need to change that at all, just fix disparity in rewards that exists at the moment.

[McTurbo]

Why would you change something that worked for years. Harder content on 25 feels more epic and it's what 9/10 truly hard core raiders aim for. Recognition in the format widely accepted as top end raiding. No need to change that at all, just fix disparity in rewards that exists at the moment.

nothing needs to change for hardcore raiding.. the vast majority of talk here is about just regular 25 mans normal mode raiding.. the pool is getting smaller cause players are going to 10's and leaving behind those who cant cope with the continue upping of difficulty.. the biggest effect is probally seen first teir of a new expansion.. lack of adequate gear makes your first few weeks just brutal for alot of people. (especially healers!)

[Espe]

the interview with Ion Hazzikostas is still on the front page of MMO-Champion lol.

Yeah, I read it.

..the logistical burdens of maintaining a 25 player roster. Those burdens are borne almost exclusively by the officers, raid leaders, and guild leaders of those groups.

That says nothing of the difficulty difference once you cross the threshhold into the instance.

You can carry people in 25m. You just can't do that in 10m. Check out my sig for details.

[Deleted]

Oh I understand what you mean, I'm just trying to make you understand that random crappy players who have done nothing significant in wow shouldnt really comment on the state of raids for a simple reason, they don't know enough about it. Why do you think that blizzard dont listen at all to random baddies in sc2? because they are bad and they know nothing about the game, which is totally okay, but they somehow still think that they know something. I also still don't understand why blizzard haven't made wow like that yet, listening to the elite, it would help the game so much.

---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 01:22 PM ----------



9k+ world rank is above average? Live on in your dream world where 9k+ world rank is above average, stay bad. Still can't grasp how kids like you can take yourself so serious. I'm outta here, keep believing that you are above average and know anything about the game in depth

Listening to the elite: Cataclysm T11. Casuals had nothing to do. WoW subscription went down the drain. If Blizzard would only cater to the elite (or those who consider themselves that, cause I saw a guild on my realm who are world top 300, supposedly raid 3x a week, but had 600 wipes on one boss in MSV and are always there when /who) then the rest of the playerbase is left in the cold. And there's a lot inbetween the hardcore who play well till the fellow who is still level 85 (or even lower) leveling up to 90. Your 15 USD/EUR/whatever a month is worth the same as mine, or anyone else's.

SC2 has a completely different business model: buy to play (with expansion packs). Its akin to games like CoD, GW2. You buy it once, and then can play it forever. There is single target and multiplayer, and a ladder system, but no gear grinds. They're actually more skill-based than games like WoW where grinding and insane amounts of time will get you further. WoW raiding does not have an official ladder, and is subscription-based. The content has to be appropriate to keep players coming back into the game on a regular basis (daily/weekly preferably). The lesson here is that its already true nobody gives a rat about WoW PvE progress except a few hardcore players, who are likely no-lifers, and far from the average WoW player. Each of these is paying their sub, but there's far more of the latter type of player.

[Radalek]

Yeah, I read it.



That says nothing of the difficulty difference once you cross the threshhold into the instance.

You can carry people in 25m. You just can't do that in 10m. Check out my sig for details.

Here you are again making false statements with your out of context sig. Your sig is about LFR content and later devs added that 25 man is more complex than 10 man on higher difficulty, but you don't want to add that bit do you? It would ruin your false statement about 25 man difficulty vs 10 man.

[T18Z]

Yeah, I read it.



That says nothing of the difficulty difference once you cross the threshhold into the instance.

You can carry people in 25m. You just can't do that in 10m. Check out my sig for details.

You can carry people in 10, especially when your enrage timers are non-existent. Stop fooling yourself.

Your sig is also a pile of shit, using a quote taken out of context, very smart.

[Espe]

out of context sig

The question may have been about LFR, but the answer is clearly about 10 vs. 25 executional difficultly difference.

Just re-read my sig and see for yourself

[Deleted]

The question may have been about LFR, but the answer is clearly about 10 vs. 25 executional difficultly difference.

Just re-read my sig and see for yourself

Your very existance in this thread where you do nothing else but trolling people and twisting the truth is a proof that there are some double standards regarding infractions as well.
I know i may have just violated few rules here as well, but i simply dont care getting infracted since infraction has little value anyway.

[Espe]

Your very existance in this thread where

You mean where I state my opinion about the topic? An opinion shared by the WoW Devs?

Logistical = outside of raid. That's just a fact.

I also don't think you should be calling anyone here a troll.

[Radalek]

The question may have been about LFR, but the answer is clearly about 10 vs. 25 executional difficultly difference.

Just re-read my sig and see for yourself

No, it's only about 25 man LFR. Same devs said that 25 man is more complex on higher difficulty. You are lying and it's getting to the point someone reading this should infract you.

[scadouche]

You mean where I state my opinion about the topic? An opinion shared by the WoW Devs?

Logistical = outside of raid. That's just a fact.

I also don't think you should be calling anyone here a troll.

1st thing I would liek to say is that you are not even discussing the topic. You are debating 10v25 man. This is not about 10 man.

2nd thing is that you are taking a line out of context which makes what argument you are attempting to make garbage.

Stop with this nonsense.

[Oxyra]

Yes, because Cata offered no end game content outside raids so gave no-raiders nothing to do.

Its a good thing raiders were kept happy; the game might have lost another hundred thousand or so.

What? You seriously think those 2 million cared about raids?

http://i.imgur.com/Pju1d.png

Given that a large portion of their subscriber loss was from the Asian market as well, that's not represented in that data, since data was obtained from WoWProgress...
I'd say a very large portion of the players that quit, DID care about raiding.

---------- Post added 2012-11-22 at 02:28 PM ----------

Hmm what? Catering specficially to the majority of the playerbase will annoy the majority of the playerbase? how do you work that out?


Drop 10 items in 10 man but tune it hard as balls and make 25 mans pieace of piss cakewalks that drop fewer items but of the same ilvl. There will be 25 man raids everywhere again.

If you want more 25 mans all you have to do is drop the elitist thinking...........

Wait, aren't 10mans already tuned hard as balls and 25mans already super easy?

http://eu.battle.net/wow/character/zenedar/Injin/

Maybe you guys should swap to 25man?

[Talen]

http://i.imgur.com/Pju1d.png

is misleading at best.

When you can provide some accurate data that isn't skewed by grouping togther raids that were available for a year with those wich were available for a month, when you have data that doesn't group together data gathered using very different methodologies, when you have dtaa that is accurate, uyp to date and analysed then you can spout the resulting graph.

This is not evidence of anything except you think it important. It makes no effort to account for different data collection methods, different timeframes, other activites such as levelling a character, it doesn't take into account LFR and so on. You don't mention if the data sets are comparable.

All you've really done is shown us a set of numbers, stated they are from WoWprogress and posted them again and again and again. If you are going to throw facts to prove what everyone knows and accepts - that 25s are declining in numbers and popularity - they'll need to be a little bit more concrete than what you have given in order for us to be able to draw any conclusions other than what we already know.

What your graph DOES show is that the two sets of figures for LK show about 2.3 million each. Relatively steady. Relatively stable.
What it also shows is a figure of approx 700k for the raids of Ctaclysm. Also relatively stable.

What it does not show is why the figures dropped between the two groupings. That's actually kinda important.
Did they drop because the game losts subs? Did they drop because WoWprogress changed its data mining process? Did they drop because what used to have two achievements now only had 1? Did they change because, with shared lockouts, players now only raided one format? Do these figures account for Normals and Heroics? How many players went to LFR?

I'd say a very large portion of the players that quit, DID care about raiding.

And you'd be wrong. Raiding always been a minority interest in WoW. If the 2 million who did quit had much interest in it, there'd be no raiding scene at all. Doubtless, a lot of those who did leave did raid to one degree or another. The error is in assuming the raid model is the prime/sole/major factor.

In essence, your graph tells us something we already knew. It doesn't tell us anything we need to know.

As it is, its still fairly healthy in many ways. The population just got skewed, for whatever reason, to 10s. And thats only wrong to whatever degree that 25s are forced into 10s.

EJL

[Hekili]

All the raid achievements need to show which tier of difficulty you obtained it in. That is, there shouldn't be two achievements requiring people to do both 10s and 25s for completeness, but your achievement should show something like:

[Heroic: Sha of Fear]
Requires 1 of 2
Sha of Fear (10 Player)
Sha of Fear (25 Player)

That gives you the epeen factor. If you need anything else, make it so the raid size impacts which titles you obtain.

stuntz' idea above is also decent, with some tweaking. 25-player loot could start one tier of upgrades above 10-player. Both drops would need to have the same upgrade potential (i.e., they can be upgraded to the same top level), but 10-player loot could take one extra set of upgrades.

[Espe]

1st thing I would liek to say is that you are not even discussing the topic.

The topic is "How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort""

As I have pointed out, they are already rewarded with more drops per kill, more battle rezes per attempt and less executional responsibility. That is just how the game is currently designed. I think that caving to the small minority who want to get a gold star for coasting with a few extra warm bodies is not a way to make the game better.

[nehunter]

There is a simple solution. Downsize 25man to 20man, this will lead to a simple path of merging guilds.
(or try 30man at first as experiment)

[Deleted]

There is a simple solution. Downsize 25man to 20man, this will lead to a simple path of merging guilds.

And if you also seperate the lockouts from 10 and 20 man, you give the 10-man guilds to run it with their 2nd team or with a friendly guild.

[Ettan]

You mean where I state my opinion about the topic? An opinion shared by the WoW Devs?

Logistical = outside of raid. That's just a fact.

I also don't think you should be calling anyone here a troll.

No its not,
preparation / supply is a vital part of logistics yes.
But logistics is also communication and control on the battlefield itself.

"That's just a fact."
Most of the time I find it is people like you that are the most stupid, the ones that are so sure of themselfs that they will ignore reality.

[Deleted]

Why would you change something that worked for years. Harder content on 25 feels more epic and it's what 9/10 truly hard core raiders aim for. Recognition in the format widely accepted as top end raiding. No need to change that at all, just fix disparity in rewards that exists at the moment.

Erm this discussion is about how to incentivise people so that more 25 mans happen.

If we measure 25 mans on the basis of popularity, they have always been a miserable failure, even when they were dropping higher ilvl loot. Hardcore raiding might well be served by hard, higher ilvl 25 mans, but that's not what we are talking about here. This is about making 25 mans better for raid leaders so that more people do them.

Drop 25 man dififculty so it's just a bit tougher than LFR< the logistic problems will vanish and 25 mans will prosper again. No need to try and use carrots to make people do something they really cba doing.

---------- Post added 2012-11-22 at 09:21 AM ----------

Wait, aren't 10mans already tuned hard as balls and 25mans already super easy?

http://eu.battle.net/wow/character/zenedar/Injin/

Maybe you guys should swap to 25man?

Bitch, please. If I gave a shit what people thought about my progression and performance, I wouldn't have the signature that I do. You are right though, while we do much better than average, making 25 mans easier might benefit us. But then again it would benefit pretty much everyone bar hardcore raiders - which is why it would be a godo thing for the game. You have to realise that hardcores are irrelevent, a statistical blip. You should be grateful blizzard do anything for you at all. I suspect they only still do because that's their own background. It certainly won't be pleasing the bean counters.