Wowprogress pulls counter.

[Deleted]

9 pulls of spirit king and madness second....

270 in total.

It hurts so much when you get the right combo and then something fucks you over, you know you got to wait a few pulls before you can go again...

We prepotted on EVERY pull fyi.

[Deleted]

Why would you reset on spirit kings? every combination is easily killable...

We never reset for a bad combination and killed it in 90 attempts.

1st, 2nd and 3rd kill we did subetai -> zian -> meng
4nd we did meng -> subetai -> zian
5th and 6th we did meng -> zian -> subetai

[Deleted]

Pointless feature. If people cared that much, wouldn't they just look at the guilds logs anyway?

[nxzt]

Why would you reset on spirit kings? every combination is easily killable...

That's kind of an ignorant statement, coming from a guy in a top 10 guild don't you think?

[Deleted]

I'm just trying to say that knowing how to deal with encounter mechanics is much more important than having the perfect boss order. If you wipe just for getting the slightly suboptimal order, you waste a lot of time that could have been used to have your players get experience with dealing with all the encounter mechanics. Which will help you more in the end.

[Deleted]

Holy guacamole batman. I wanna see a video of Meng>Zian>Sube.

We still just call a wipe if we get Meng first and also if we get Zian>Meng

[fangless]

Pointless feature. If people cared that much, wouldn't they just look at the guilds logs anyway?

Nearly every decent guilds logs are hidden/private.

[Deleted]

Guilds usually open up their logs after progress is done on that boss.

[Dracodraco]

Saying that having to deal with Meng's Maddening shout is "slightly" harder is an understatement. I have no doubt it's possible, in the same way it was possible to deal with Vizier's attenuation+Force and verve if you started on the Atten platform (hinthint - shields blocks 75% of disc damage, so you'd essentially just duck into it and heal harder). Was it worth trying to learn to deal with it, compared to FnV first? Not at all.

I mean, Subetai + maddening shout is retarded, for one - you risk needing to be spread (for volley, and pinning arrows) during it, and unless you have enough priests to simply Halo everyone out instantly, chances are that people will take time getting broken - and if they're targetted by the volley at the same time, the healers can't heal them up again.

And of course, there's the darkness shield on Zian, which needs to be dealt with, either by dragging the boss to africa so people can aoe the shout quickly, or by singletargetting. Not hard, but I mean. I'm sure you guys also had your fair share of darkness-oriented wipes, maddening shout or not.

Last, and probably least (now), I'm sure you guys prefered having Meng last pre-enrage nerf? considering that you could have him stick around in his reflect-phase for a minute or more after hitting Enrage, doing no actual "oneshot" damage, apart from shouting (which could be broken instantly by pre-AOE, before it ticked), adding ALOT of time to the tight enrage timer.
Something none of the other two would allow you to (zian and Subetai keeps shooting, and uses mechanics that'd oneshot).

It's a bit OT, but I just find it extremely arrogant for you to claim that it's only "slightly" harder. Really, Spirit kings and Vizier should both have added "elite" modes, by starting with a different king, or different platform.

[Gondlem]

Well, Meng second is harder, but:

A) It's totally not comparable to Vizier. The problem with attenuation first is actually the second transition in my experience, trying to split the raid in half to both be able to break out MCs and kill the F&V ghost at the same time while dealing with F&V itself. Obviously it could be done now but in first week it was close to impossible and any attempt where he went right was a 100% wasted pull.

B) Not every order is as bad as Meng second and Sebutai last, which is definitely the hardest. The world first kill was with Zian second for example while Sebutai second is generally considered to be easier. I think our first kill was Meng third and Zian last when Meng last is considered to be easier, and so on. There's lots of variation there. Many guilds got first week Spirit Kings kills without resetting it because there's various possible orders and you can still learn a huge amount about the fight from pulls where the order isn't ideal, whereas nobody has killed attenuation first Vizier and nobody even tried in week one.

I personally wouldn't advise resetting Spirit Kings just for learning purposes but either way it's definitely a choice. Sebutai second is the big one IMO. That helps a lot, but it's not that big.

[Deleted]

Saying that having to deal with Meng's Maddening shout is "slightly" harder is an understatement. I have no doubt it's possible, in the same way it was possible to deal with Vizier's attenuation+Force and verve if you started on the Atten platform (hinthint - shields blocks 75% of disc damage, so you'd essentially just duck into it and heal harder). Was it worth trying to learn to deal with it, compared to FnV first? Not at all.

I mean, Subetai + maddening shout is retarded, for one - you risk needing to be spread (for volley, and pinning arrows) during it, and unless you have enough priests to simply Halo everyone out instantly, chances are that people will take time getting broken - and if they're targetted by the volley at the same time, the healers can't heal them up again.

And of course, there's the darkness shield on Zian, which needs to be dealt with, either by dragging the boss to africa so people can aoe the shout quickly, or by singletargetting. Not hard, but I mean. I'm sure you guys also had your fair share of darkness-oriented wipes, maddening shout or not.

Last, and probably least (now), I'm sure you guys prefered having Meng last pre-enrage nerf? considering that you could have him stick around in his reflect-phase for a minute or more after hitting Enrage, doing no actual "oneshot" damage, apart from shouting (which could be broken instantly by pre-AOE, before it ticked), adding ALOT of time to the tight enrage timer.
Something none of the other two would allow you to (zian and Subetai keeps shooting, and uses mechanics that'd oneshot).

It's a bit OT, but I just find it extremely arrogant for you to claim that it's only "slightly" harder. Really, Spirit kings and Vizier should both have added "elite" modes, by starting with a different king, or different platform.

I guess we experienced it differently then.. I was on all progress attempts and I never felt we were at a big disadvantage if we didn't get the perfect order. The vast majority of the wipes were due to stupid stuff like some1 attacking a shield, or ppl dpsing too hard on high-insanity Meng. Which has nothing to do with boss order.

With proper timers and raidleading it's very easy to bunch up in time for shout and be spread out enough afterwards for pinning arrows.

[IxilaFA]

I may not be an expert or in a hardcore progression based guild, but I find wiping because you didn't get an optimal order to be ridiculous for any guild outside of World First competition. For World Firsts, the only thing that matters is killing that boss before anyone else, so obviously getting an optimal order is key to that. For any other guild, it's just important to learn the mechanics and deal with them properly, so learning all orders is a good thing to do.

Seems to me like hardcore people who prefer to only do the optimal order after World Firsts have been claimed are just hiding behind excuses. If they were really "hardcore" they would be able to handle any rotation that is thrown at them.

[Deleted]

I like it....it shows that dedicated raiders never give up, even tho they wiped like 150 times on some encounters...which makes the difference to casual raids, when they wipe 20 times they give up. It shows that you just need people with plenty of time on their hands and a few more raid days then 2 raidnights a week.

It shows that running with your head long enough against a wall makes you progressing.... after 150 wipes even the numbest raider understands the mechanics....which leads to the question skill versus time investment. Are the top 100 world raiders that skilled or do they just have more time.

When they were that skilled you would not see more then 10 pulls or?

[Torty]

Saying that having to deal with Meng's Maddening shout is "slightly" harder is an understatement. I have no doubt it's possible, in the same way it was possible to deal with Vizier's attenuation+Force and verve if you started on the Atten platform (hinthint - shields blocks 75% of disc damage, so you'd essentially just duck into it and heal harder). Was it worth trying to learn to deal with it, compared to FnV first? Not at all.

They are not even close to being on the same level of difficulty if done in 'wrong' order. Zorlok was literally unkillable while quite a lot of guilds killed Spirit Kings without reseting them to get that slim sub 20% chance for 'right' spawn.

If you've done Zorlok prenerf, you probably remember how retardedly frustrating it was when he flew left. I myself was on the verge of throwing keyboard into the wall when we had unlucky streaks. That's 50% chance. I can't even imagine how it feels with Spirit Kings if you reset every time it's not Zian.

[IxilaFA]

I like it....it shows that dedicated raiders never give up, even tho they wiped like 150 times on some encounters...which makes the difference to casual raids, when they wipe 20 times they give up. It shows that you just need people with plenty of time on their hands and a few more raid days then 2 raidnights a week.

It shows that running with your head long enough against a wall makes you progressing.... after 150 wipes even the numbest raider understands the mechanics....which leads to the question skill versus time investment. Are the top 100 world raiders that skilled or do they just have more time.

When they were that skilled you would not see more then 10 pulls or?

It shows mostly that they have more time, but the fact that they are downing these bosses so quickly and are adapting to the fights without the use of prior strategy guides or guilds beating them speaks to their ability. Most people who do Mogu'Shan Vaults or Heart of Fear now have a good selection of videos and strats to create their own strategy by. These guilds don't have any of that.

Usually my guild kills most bosses before the 100 mark. We downed Elegon at around 80 and other bosses in normal MSV / HOF only took us around 20-30 attempts each so far. Our worst was Heroic Blackhorn which took us 120 attempts or so to down him, and then another 100 attempts to down him the second time. We usually can only get off about 20 attempts per raid though, since we only raid 3 hours a night.

[Deleted]

It shows mostly that they have more time, but the fact that they are downing these bosses so quickly and are adapting to the fights without the use of prior strategy guides or guilds beating them speaks to their ability. Most people who do Mogu'Shan Vaults or Heart of Fear now have a good selection of videos and strats to create their own strategy by. These guilds don't have any of that.

Usually my guild kills most bosses before the 100 mark. We downed Elegon at around 80 and other bosses in normal MSV / HOF only took us around 20-30 attempts each so far. Our worst was Heroic Blackhorn which took us 120 attempts or so to down him, and then another 100 attempts to down him the second time. We usually can only get off about 20 attempts per raid though, since we only raid 3 hours a night.

When Ulduar was new we ceared it in the first ID, that time i was in a top 100 raiding gild... we killed bosses where people said they are buggy and not doable (Ignis the Furnace Master anyone?)...and it was like... Pull, wipe, ran back in buff pull and repeat we raided the whole id 12-14 hours each day with mainly no breaks untill we downed another boss, so i know a little bit how it is to raid in a hc guild.

When you get your lucky shot on a boss, having the perfect try and you down him finally the barrier in everyone heads is gone, but untill that you have to run in again and again.

Casual guilds most likely are not motivated to do so...after 20 trys people want to give up.....thats the difference to hc guilds.

Back those days when MC was the shit i had on my main tank a playtime of 270 days and i was in the server #1 guild...........Time=win i think i was the rolemodell of a unemployed hc raider.

On the other hand when you play that much and theres no doubt you know how your class to play and skill comes with experience............. nowerdays when people log 2-3 days on their mains for 2 raid nights you cannot expect that much in downing hc bosses.

[Ryme]

I like the feature, but I'm getting mixed results on the accuracy of the tool. Hopefully it can be improved as it's always nice to know how hard your server competition is working :P

[volrath50]

So has anyone figured out where they are getting the information from? I'm sort of curious...

[lockedout]

not accurate.

Totally credit worthy statement with lots of facts to back it up.

---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 09:50 PM ----------

That's kind of an ignorant statement, coming from a guy in a top 10 guild don't you think?

He means every combination as in what order they come out.

[Maxvla]

My question is why are none of the guilds with heroic terrace kills showing pulls? At first I thought it was something that would take a few hours or a day to get updated, but it's been several days now and they still don't show.