Set Bonuses

[dgiras]

I know that nobody will listen but i'll write it anyway
Why does the frost specc getts 2 of his strikes to be buffed up from the tier bonus while UH only one?
To be equal shouldnt be the death coil also on the tier bonus?
+10% to obl-FS-SC and Death Coil.

[matthias9742]

because as far as I know using oblit while DW for anything other than clearing 1 UH rune for RE is a DPS loss. Similarly, FS is bad to use as 2H unless you are close to RP cap or don't have anything better to use available. So it requires 2 bonuses that cater to 2 setups for the 1 spec.

[Vereesa]

I don't have any math or theorycrafting to give you, but in simple terms it's because Unholy gets to use Scourge Strike far more often than Frost gets to use Obliterate or Frost Strike, such that is becomes approximately equal.

[Shiira]

Because the four set bonus is better for unholy than it is for frost.

[Laroux]

Yeah, like Vereesa said, especially with a good amount of haste unholy can spam scourge strike a lot more; also keep in mind that there is a second component of that strike that gets done as shadow damage, although I have not sure it gets the 10% bonus.

[NeverStop]

Am I the only one who thinks the DK 4 piece DPS set bonus is terrible compared to other class's set bonus, like Ret Paladin? 5% extra STR with 33% uptime is pretty weak compared to a 45% cooldown reduction on a major dmg CD.

[Kisho]

Am I the only one who thinks the DK 4 piece DPS set bonus is terrible compared to other class's set bonus, like Ret Paladin? 5% extra STR with 33% uptime is pretty weak compared to a 45% cooldown reduction on a major dmg CD.

Set bonuses aren't meant to be equal. If anything they can be used as a further balancing mechanism; a class that is strong without the set bonus gets weaker bonuses, while a class that is weaker without gets stronger set bonuses to compensate.

I have no idea if that's what is happening here, but it's the logical reasoning behind why set bonuses aren't exactly the same, always. The other reasoning being that everything being the same is super dull.

[Revenantparadigm]

Unfortunately when one looks at the actual numbers behind the tier 14 2pc bonus it quickly becomes apparent that Unholy is significantly disadvantaged, particularly when compared to 2h Frost. This can be most easily seen by looking at the damage percentages that the relevant abilities (scourge strike, frost strike and obliterate) contribute to total dps.

If we take the current simcraft bis profiles as our starting point we arrive at the following:

2H Frost derives 58% of its damage from obliterate and frost strike, meaning it receives an apx 5.8% bonus for the 2pc.
DW Frost derives 48% of its damage from obliterate and frost strike, meaning it receives an apx 4.8% bonus for the 2pc.
Unholy derives 19.8% if its damage from scourge strike (including the shadow damage portion) meaning it receives an apx 1.9% bonus for the 2pc.

So based on these figures 2H Frost receives almost three times the bonus that unholy does - and this is for a spec that sims and logs show as already show as ahead.

As it so happens I also recently performed some log analysis that I posted on the blizz forums. this was as follows:

I have analysed the top 5 unholy parses and the top 5 2H Frost parses on World of Logs for the first thee bosses of Heart of Fear (on 10M normal). I realise that this is not a proper statistical analysis, but hopefully it will be sufficient to show that the situation needs further investigation.

Ideally i would increase the sample size (both numbers of parses and number of bosses), but there are limits to what I can squeeze in to my spare time. I have also omitted stats for DW Frost for similar reasons.

For each boss I have calculated:

The average DPS of the top 5 parses
The percentage of the damage caused by Obliterate, Frost Strike & Scourge Strike
The actual DPS generated by Obliterate, Frost Strike & Scourge Strike (including the 2pc bonus)
The actual DPS generated by Obliterate, Frost Strike & Scourge Strike (before the 2pc is applied)
The actual bonus DPS provided by the 2pc
The percentage DPS bonus provided by the 2pc tier bonus

To keep this post brief my results are summarised as follows:

Imperial Vizier Zor'lok

Avg. 2H Frost DPS: 89640
2pc Bonus DPS 5838
2pc Bonus DPS%:6.51

Avg UH DPS: 83607
2pc Bonus DPS 1982
2pc Bonus DPS %2.37

Blade Lord Ta'yek

Avg. 2H Frost DPS: 79503
2pc Bonus DPS: 5034
2pc Bonus DPS %:6.3

Avg UH DPS 76614
2pc Bonus DPS: 1927
2pc Bonus DPS %: 2.51

Garalon

Avg. 2H Frost DPS: 145162
2pc Bonus DPS: 9117
2pc Bonus DPS %: 6.28

Avg UH DPS: 118690
2pc Bonus DPS: 2265
2pc Bonus DPS %:1.9

While this analysis is rather amateur, it does point to a glaring disparity between the bonus that the 2pc provides for each spec. It also shows that increasing the bonus to scourge strike from 10% to 20% would close the gap between the specs, but would not result in unholy overtaking frost in any of the examined parses.

With regards to the 4 pc bonus i am not sure how one can conclude that the unholy bonus is superior. The frost bonus provides 5% extra strength for every pillar of frost, which works out to a static bonus 1.66% strength (based on pillar of frost being used once per minute). The Unholy bonus provides 10% extra haste for Unholy Frenzy, which works out to a static haste bonus of 1.66%. As far as I'm aware 1.66% strength is far superior to 1.66% haste

Please feel free to point out any errors I've made - I'd love to be wrong on this!

[Shiira]

The four piece isn't good for unholy because of the average extra amount of haste it gives over a long interval, it's good because you can throw it on someone else who has good cooldowns of their own during any phase that needs to be pushed quickly.

That can be a lot more beneficial than having a little extra strength as frost.

[Revenantparadigm]

I hadn't considered that - thanks for pointing it out. I'd be intererested on your opinion as to whether the utility provided by the 4pc compensates for the reduced damage offered by the 2 pc (when compared to frost)

[Shiira]

Depends on whether you want burst damage to finish one phase faster, or sustained damage to finish an entire fight faster.

Both have their places, and unholy is already better for burst without the four set. It's a lot better with it.

[Advent]

Depends on whether you want burst damage to finish one phase faster, or sustained damage to finish an entire fight faster.

Both have their places, and unholy is already better for burst without the four set. It's a lot better with it.

I'm almost certain you meant Frost.

[Rothulean1]

The 2 and 4 piece bonuses are simply better for Frost. Period.

[Shiira]

I'm almost certain you meant Frost.

I'm entirely certain I meant unholy, and if you read my posts in this thread you should understand why I'm saying this.

[Rothulean1]

There is no way Unholy has more burst.

Edit: And I play Unholy.

[Deleted]

how are you defining burst? first 5seconds of a fight or first 30 :P, frost's burst is extremely variable due to KM procs, get a nice streak and gratz you can peak 300k even as DW (obv paired with skull banners etc)

[Jarg]

The four piece isn't good for unholy because of the average extra amount of haste it gives over a long interval, it's good because you can throw it on someone else who has good cooldowns of their own during any phase that needs to be pushed quickly.

That can be a lot more beneficial than having a little extra strength as frost.

This is why Shiira said read his previous post to understand why he is saying UH is better burst.

[Revenantparadigm]

I think one could argue that unholy has more controlled burst, while frost has more initial burst and has a more burst based damage distribution.

To illustrate we can look at a five minute fight.

To maximise dps Frost must hit PoF every minute and Raise Dead every two minutes. The only cooldowns they can time to maximise dps are are ERW and AOTD. Furthermore the nature of the spec (i.e. dependency on Km procs) means that damage will fluctuate with burst occurring when a series of KM procs line up (which is mainly outside player control)

Compare this to Unholy, where one has much greater flexibility to when one can pop cooldowns - e.g. in a five minute fight unholy can line up unholy frenzy, gargoyle, ERW and AOTD so that they are all popped when the boss is taking additional damage, or when the fight mechanics require burst. Outside of this controlled burst phase Unholy will, of course, have a steadier damage output than frost