since when did raiders give up so damn easily

[Auloria]

By the game's own definition, when you enter a raid, you are a raider.

If you clear old raids for trasmog gear, you are a solo raider. If you get a group together for previous expansion achievements, you are an old school raider. If your guild takes a shot at MV once a week, you are a casual raider. If you are competing for realm firsts, you are a hardcore raider.

We don't say that DS isn't a raid anymore, so why would we say the people doing them aren't raiders?

[Frozenbeef]

If you have a group of more than 5 people then you are in a raid and therefor a raider...maybe not a hardcore or necessarily good raider but raider none the less..please stop acting like you climbed Mount Everest simply because you managed to get into a guild that is dedicated enough to run heroics.

[Deleted]

Sky is blue, grass is green, people get confused on semantics. The truth is a raider is someone who, with 5+ people, goes around and kills stuff. Whether that be heroic Stone Guard, Illidan, Garrosh, or some poor level 4 night elf. To try to draw lines in the sand stating "well if it isn't super current it doesn't count" is both childish and being completely oblivious to the concept of raiding.

Heck one could argue that, as long as you are not by yourself in a raid, you could be considered raiding when you are killing stuff in a raid.

Spot on, I believe its mostly young kids that want to feel really special that believes otherwise.

[soulkeeperx]

Just because you enter a raid doesn't make you a real raider. You wouldn't call yourself a professional guitar player because you only know 3 chords, right?

[Deleted]

Just because you enter a raid doesn't make you a real raider. You wouldn't call yourself a professional guitar player because you only know 3 chords, right?

No, but you'd call yourself a guitar player.

Fascinating discussion, brb, raiding fridge.

[ngc2440]

Just because you enter a raid doesn't make you a real raider. You wouldn't call yourself a professional guitar player because you only know 3 chords, right?

No one is saying anything of the sort. At least try to stay rational if you want to make a good counter argument. As Injin pointed out a person who knows three cords would call themselves a guitar player just like a person who ran a raid would call themselves a raider. I am still baffled at all the comparisons to real life professions though.

[Rupture91]

Its a pug.. a bad pug at that.

[Aquamonkey]

If you have a group of more than 5 people then you are in a raid and therefor a raider...maybe not a hardcore or necessarily good raider but raider none the less..please stop acting like you climbed Mount Everest simply because you managed to get into a guild that is dedicated enough to run heroics.

I can make a raid of 2 people and afk in Org. I'm in a raid, therefore, I'm raiding and being a raider.

[Frozenbeef]

I can make a raid of 2 people and afk in Org. I'm in a raid, therefore, I'm raiding and being a raider.

Yes. You are in a raid you are a raider...you are in a classroom you are a student or a teacher, you are on a bus you are a bus driver or a passenger. None of those positions show how good the person is... the bus driver may be a terrible driver but he's a bus driver none the less.

[thunderdragon2]

Well.. I wouldn't call anyone who don't have the ds hc achievements a raider.

Obviously the majority who didn't raid during that content are those who can't be arsed to put alot of time in raiding. And that's the result you get when such people want to faceroll old content and then wipe.

i never got madness hc when it was current because i wasn't taken but i have everything else... so dose that mean im not a raider...?

[Srsbsnsbro]

People who down Heroic content while it's current and before 35% nerf are in fact better than your average WoW player. Not as human beings but as players - just saying.

People who down Heroic content while it's current and before 35% nerf have time to do it - just saying. I know I could do it with a group of people who play at my skill level, but I'm gone a lot, even moreso now since MoP, and only have time to log on a lowbie alt or one of my 85s and plug away at the climb to 90 with a couple quests. Just because I'm not -able- to because of time doesn't mean I can't if I was given the time to do so.

Your argument is invalid.

[HarleyM]

If you introduce yourself at a party as a basketball player, an artist, a painter, a fighter, a couch potato, or anything else, it generally suggests that is your primary focus, and if that title is a profession, that it is how you make your living. If a 10 year old introduces himself as a basketball player, it is a pretty safe bet that he plays on a team - that he doesn't just play basketball at recess. Therefore, I'd say a raider is someone whose primary focus in this game is raiding.

That isn't a statement of superiority. It is a definitional term. If someone tells me they are a couch potato, I would assume they don't have any more than a job to break even paying the bills. As a couch potato, they would be justified in saying that someone who works 80 hours a week then comes home and spends all their free time on the couch is not a couch potato. Not because they are better than the person who works, but because any other system is confusing.

I have and can (badly) play a guitar. However, were I to introduce myself as a guitarist or a guitar player would be very misleading. I would need to introduce myself as a very casual guitar player, or say that I dabble in playing guitar. To me, it is the same thing with raiding. Further, my father plays keyboard in an awful garage band. Sometimes he will introduce himself as a musician in a band. As some might expect, very few people say 'oh okay' and think nothing of it. There is almost invariably a bit of embarrassment for him on all sides, and a bit of eye rolling on the part of the person he tells. Even if he technically falls within the definition, it is a misleading statement at best.

To me, introducing yourself as a raider means that your primary focus in the game is raiding and you aren't terrible at it. Alternatively, it is possible that your primary focus is elsewhere but you are particularly spectacular at raiding (for example, a main raider in BL whose focus is actually PvP), but even then it is a tad bit misleading. Further, the content you are doing is not incredibly easy. Labels like 'raider' are only useful to the extent that they distinguish between playstyles or outlooks. Just because I do pet battles occasionally, or the odd arena, RBG, or bg, does not make me a pet battler or a PvPer. Just because I'm not one of those things doesn't mean I am bad at it, or that I am 'less' of a player, just that it is a misleading label.

---------- Post added 2012-12-09 at 06:30 PM ----------

People who down Heroic content while it's current and before 35% nerf have time to do it - just saying. I know I could do it with a group of people who play at my skill level, but I'm gone a lot, even moreso now since MoP, and only have time to log on a lowbie alt or one of my 85s and plug away at the climb to 90 with a couple quests. Just because I'm not -able- to because of time doesn't mean I can't if I was given the time to do so.

Your argument is invalid.

His statement, for it is not an argument, is not inaccurate at all. Everything you said may well be true as well, for the two are not contradictory. All it means is that you too are better than the average WoW player.

[Kissme]

You've made the same point as Nyc, but you have no basis for it. Nobody's looking for recognition, it's just stupid to say that someone who is doing raids is not a raider.

A good number of the people arguing that people doing a raid aren't raiders are saying that activities tied to a raid group don't necessarily make one a raider. The definition of what a raider is or isn't is tied to more than doing an activity in a raid group.

You had to be in a raid group to do battlegrounds, or original UBRS, but those weren't considered to be raiding. People that did those activities weren't raiders.

There's also an argument as to whether LFR or old content counts as raids. Is raiding tied to the idea of difficulty? I would argue that difficulty, environment size, and teamwork and communication all contribute to making something a raid. It's for that reason that the wintergrasp and tol barad bosses are raid bosses without being raiding or people fighting them being raiders. I would also argue that LFR's complete minimization of difficulty and communication/teamwork requirements has made it so that LFR is it's own entity apart from raiding.

And all points with regards to definition of a term are tied to recognition related to that term. Anyone that wants to be called a raider is looking to be recognized as a raider rather than (or possibly in addition to) being called a pvper, or a rper, or an altoholic, or a scrub, ad infinitum. Basically, the terminology difference is the same as that between someone who has a drink and an alcoholic. Just because they engage in the same activity does not make them the same defining term. Someone who has participated in a raid is not necessarily a raider, just like someone who has a beer isn't necessarily an alcoholic. However, the raider does have to have participated in raids, just like the alcoholic has to have had a drink. The activity is necessary to the definition, but isn't the only criteria for the definition.

Basically, fighting in a war doesn't necessarily make you a soldier. Firing a gun doesn't make you a marksman. Being in a raid group doesn't make you a raider.

What the actual criteria to be a raider entail will vary based on who you ask, but the common consensus is that there is more to being a raider than just having been in a raid group. This definition will also change as the expectations of the community change. So many people that now are considered raiders may not have been considered raiders at an earlier point in the game.

[Psilar]

This thread sucks. You're all making my head hurt.

---------- Post added 2012-12-09 at 07:14 PM ----------

No, but you'd call yourself a guitar player.

Fascinating discussion, brb, raiding fridge.

Raiding fridge = raider IMO

[Kissme]

Why does difficulty have to imply any god damned thing at all? That's absurd. It's like saying someone beating a game on anything but the hardest difficulty flat out doesn't count. You're using arbitrary rules to prop one group up, and put another group down. Simple as that.

Part of the problem is that ever since ToGC in WotLK raiders have been segmented by difficulty rather than strictly by progression. In Vanilla, TBC, and Wrath up to the end of Ulduar, there really was no differentiation at the same point of progression for difficulty. If you had beaten a boss at level (eg Kael at 70) then you had beaten that boss. Either you had beaten the boss or you hadn't, period. Thus arbitrary black and white definitions were easier to apply - the new system applies more variations to the definition. You never used to have LFR raiders or Normal mode raiders or Hard mode raiders. You only had raiders. Did they have different degrees of progression - yes. But that progression was all along one linear scale and line. This was lessened to a degree with the removal of keying, but even then you usually had to progress through almost all bosses before attempting the next boss (Kael and Vashj in TBC being notable exceptions once keying was removed). Once the toggle hardmodes got involved, the tracing of progression became more difficult for exactly the reason you state. Does beating the boss on anything but the highest difficulty count? When there was only one difficulty, this wasn't even a question.

This makes defining what is or isn't a raider far more difficult than it originally was.

[eijin]

from skimming through this thread, i have a simple answer. raiders began giving up so easily, when it was decided that anyone who enters a raid is a raider. If you take people who's main focus in the game is raiding, it would be unusual still for them to give up after the first wipe to a raid boss.

I pvp once every blue moon (like 5 times during this expansion). If someone judged all pvpers off something i did, i would consider it inaccurate. But its all personal opinion there.

[Grym]

They are probably not the same raiders from pre LK, they were probably just doing 5 man dungeons and dailies back in TBC.

Raiders are still raiding wipes after wipes, those....yeah I can see them giving up as it is a little bit harder than dungeons and dailies.

[nnelson54]

I was more referring to the guy that said LFR wasn't raiding or some crap.

I haven't done a regular raid since we cleared Mogu'shan Vaults the first week because my schedule changed. All I've done since then is my weekly LFR on my main.

LFR is not raiding.

[Terridon]

I was more referring to the guy that said LFR wasn't raiding or some crap.

LFR as raiding equels taking a stick, stringing it up with a rope, and call yourself an archer with a bow.
A kid can do that, but it doesn't mean he really is one :P

[Archermit]

Well.. I wouldn't call anyone who don't have the ds hc achievements a raider.

I didn't have the achievements for DS heroic but I am a raider, I quit after the first week of DS cause it was crap.