Isn't it about time the Mens' Rights Movement stopped being treated like a joke?

[starlord]

But it is about equal rights. Women have an out because of biology. Laws exist to smooth out differences in biology (ie. I'm stronger than you but I'm not allowed to hit you.). Ergo - men should have an out too.

they have equal rights to an existing child.

they dont have equal rights to a non existant one.

would you like to argue for mens rights to fetuses?

[Destruktion]

The problem is actually, "women are forced to have children they do not want."

Get your head in the game here, we are not talking about abortion.

[Wells]

But it is about equal rights. Women have an out because of biology. Laws exist to smooth out differences in biology (ie. I'm stronger than you but I'm not allowed to hit you.). Ergo - men should have an out too.

The law exists to smooth out inequality that has no basis. Like inequality based on skin color. The advantages women have are based on real differences between women and men, not superficial things like race.

[Deleted]

The problem is actually, "women are forced to have children they do not want."

Oh boy you're going to have to explain that.

[Laize]

they have equal rights to an existing child.

they dont have equal rights to a non existant one.

would you like to argue for mens rights to fetuses?

So now the argument is "The woman just kills it so the problem goes away, but if she lets it live you have to pay."?

I don't buy that.

[Deleted]

The law exists to smooth out inequality that has no basis. Like inequality based on skin color. The advantages women have are based on real differences between women and men, not superficial things like race.

And the advantages men have, what about those?

[DuckieMage]

But it is about equal rights. Women have an out because of biology. Laws exist to smooth out differences in biology (ie. I'm stronger than you but I'm not allowed to hit you.). Ergo - men should have an out too.

Ideas based on the 'women are different' is now called Anti-feminism.
The last time 'Difference Feminism' was acceptable was Muller V Oregon that gave the state the right to limit women's hours to 10 a day on the idea that 'more work could damage the uterus'.

Men have the right to Opt out- The opt out is literally, don't have sex unless you understand the implication that having sex could lead to pregnancy.
It is seriously that simple.
They tell women the same thing, "You had sex and got pregnant? Your fault because you didn't think about what could happen after."
I literally won't have sex [despite having BC] because I'm afraid I could get pregnant and it will ruin my plans and I don't wan children.

[Laize]

The law exists to smooth out inequality that has no basis. Like inequality based on skin color. The advantages women have are based on real differences between women and men, not superficial things like race.

The law exists to do whatever the fuck we want it to. I say it should exist to give men an option to not be fathers when they're not ready.

But you know what? I'm fine with baby steps.

$200/month or 5% of take-home income. Whichever is less..

[Wells]

The law exists to do whatever the fuck we want it to.

This might be the fastest and most blatant goal post shift I've ever seen on this board.

[Laize]

Ideas based on the 'women are different' is now called Anti-feminism.
The last time 'Difference Feminism' was acceptable was Muller V Oregon that gave the state the right to limit women's hours to 10 a day on the idea that 'more work could damage the uterus'.

Men have the right to Opt out- The opt out is literally, don't have sex unless you understand the implication that having sex could lead to pregnancy.
It is seriously that simple.
They tell women the same thing, "You had sex and got pregnant? Your fault because you didn't think about what could happen after."
I literally won't have sex [despite having BC] because I'm afraid I could get pregnant and it will ruin my plans and I don't wan children.

Sure. Because abstinence-only education works like a charm. Let's do that again.

[DuckieMage]

Get your head in the game here, we are not talking about abortion.

I'm pretty sure I'm still on the idea that 'men have the right to be a father even if they woman doesn't want it.'
Unless we've moved on and agreed that the man doesn't have the right to force the woman to carry a pregnancy to term on the bases he wants the child?

[Laize]

This might be the fastest and most blatant goal post shift I've ever seen on this board.

It's not a goal shift. It's a fact. It's also the entire basis for my belief that men should have an out analogous to women.

[Deleted]

I'm pretty sure I'm still on the idea that 'men have the right to be a father even if they woman doesn't want it.'
Unless we've moved on and agreed that the man doesn't have the right to force the woman to carry a pregnancy to term on the bases he wants the child?

What in the actual fuck are you talking about?

[starlord]

So now the argument is "The woman just kills it so the problem goes away, but if she lets it live you have to pay."?

I don't buy that.

the argument is "you must first have rights to give them up".

so, tell us what rights men should have to fetuses and why.

[Wells]

Laws exist to smooth out differences in biology

The law exists to do whatever the fuck we want it to.

Yup clearly nothing has changed.

It's also the entire basis for my belief that men should have an out analogous to women.

Your entire argument is based on the idea that the law can do whatever the fuck we want it to?

[DuckieMage]

Sure. Because abstinence-only education works like a charm. Let's do that again.

I'm not talking abstinence only education. I'm pretty damn sure you said that even with BC, there is still situation that arise where the woman gets pregnant and the man is forced to support it.
The answer would be, "Don't have sex with that woman. Make sure that if you have sex, you two agree what should happen if the BC fails and pregnancy occurs."

[zuthus]

Sometimes my nads stick to my undies.

[obdigore]

I'm not talking abstinence only education. I'm pretty damn sure you said that even with BC, there is still situation that arise where the woman gets pregnant and the man is forced to support it.
The answer would be, "Don't have sex with that woman. Make sure that if you have sex, you two agree what should happen if the BC fails and pregnancy occurs."

And if she agrees to abort the child if pregnancy occurs, pregnancy occurs and she decides not to abort?

[Destruktion]

Do you see the double standard you're employing here? And its still no burden for anyone. That's what abortion results in. No burden for anyone. Why is irrelevant.

There is no double standard. Both men and women have the choice to support the child, or not support the child. The woman can opt out from the get-go. If the man opts out and the woman decides she can't support the baby, she's free to opt out then as well.

The only time a man has no say in the creation of a child is if he's raped or tricked and I'm fine with him not paying support in either case.

I'm talking about post-conception.

Ah yes that real world where women are tricking dudes left and right. If you're this paranoid ask for proof.

Who said anything about malicious intentions? I'm referring to the dynamic nature of humanity in that positions can change in light of new information. It's in the same vein as women deciding they want to forego an abortion after seeing their child on the ultrasound monitor.

saying "i'm not going to take care of the child" while its a fetus does not mean its not your child anymore when its bored.

Biologically it's still your child, but legally and financially it's not.

Whether you want to results of a decision you make or not is irrelevant on whether you bear responsibility for the outcomes of said decision.

...right. And we're asking for an opt-out from that responsibility.

[Laize]

the argument is "you must first have rights to give them up".

so, tell us what rights men should have to fetuses and why.

No rights to fetuses. Men should simply have an analogous option to women. Obviously we can't do a coat-hanger and some bleach. But there are other legal remedies we can have made available.